Brighter map lights?
9/26/07, 11:10 AM
#102
Former Vendor
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just came across this thread.
You might try putting a 4.7K 1/2W resistor in parallel with the LED in question. That might kill the small current leak and turn the LED fully off. It's an easy try, and cheap, too. Radio Shack sells resistors in a 4-pack for a couple bucks.
-L
You might try putting a 4.7K 1/2W resistor in parallel with the LED in question. That might kill the small current leak and turn the LED fully off. It's an easy try, and cheap, too. Radio Shack sells resistors in a 4-pack for a couple bucks.
-L
9/26/07, 12:40 PM
#103
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just came across this thread.
You might try putting a 4.7K 1/2W resistor in parallel with the LED in question. That might kill the small current leak and turn the LED fully off. It's an easy try, and cheap, too. Radio Shack sells resistors in a 4-pack for a couple bucks.
-L
You might try putting a 4.7K 1/2W resistor in parallel with the LED in question. That might kill the small current leak and turn the LED fully off. It's an easy try, and cheap, too. Radio Shack sells resistors in a 4-pack for a couple bucks.
-L
I believe this solves the symptoms, but not the problem (LED turns off, but power still leaking).
9/26/07, 01:29 PM
#104
Former Vendor
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Putting a resistor in parallel would reduce the current through the LED, so the LED will either turn off or be dimmer. But the resistor itself will constantly have current flowing through it (assuming there is a voltage across the LED)
I believe this solves the symptoms, but not the problem (LED turns off, but power still leaking).
I believe this solves the symptoms, but not the problem (LED turns off, but power still leaking).
Just trying to help.
-L
9/26/07, 01:50 PM
#105
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, wasn't trying to attack or demean your post! Just wanted to point that out and I failed to make any effort to be nice about it. Good solution for those that get annoyed by the glowing LED. But I agree, stock lights will also be leaking current.
9/26/07, 02:14 PM
#107
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll look at it again this weekend, if the wires are not permenantly attached to the connector housing that the bulb plugs into, it should be pretty easy to stick an ammeter in series there..
9/29/07, 06:01 PM
#108
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok guys, I measured the current through the LED when it's "off" but still glowing: 1-2 milliamps
2 milliamps * 2 millivolts = 0.000004 watts.
So both LEDs are draining 0.000008 watts, or 0.008 milliwatts, or 8 microwatts.
When you remote-unlock your car, causing your fog lamps to turn on as you walk to your car.. lets say your fog lamps are on for 10 seconds before you start your engine. Lets also say the fog lamps are 35 watts/each (70watts total). In these 10 seconds, you will use up 194.4 milliwatt-hours of power (very little).
In order for you to use 194.4 milliwatt hours through these LEDs in "fake off" mode, they will have to be on like that for... 24,300 hours. Or.. 2.77 years straight.
But remember:
1) even after being dimly on for 2.77 years, you will only have used the equivalent of 10 seconds of fog lamps.
2) in my car, they turn off completely within 30 minutes. if they don't in yours, still not a measurable power drain.
The reason why they are on is because these LEDs are efficient enough to create light out of 8 microwatts of power. The stock halogen bulbs are definately nowhere near as efficient at those voltages. I think Ford engineers designed their system to output "pretty **** close to 0V" when it's "fake off" - and 1-2mV is pretty **** close to 0V. They just didn't take into account super-efficient LEDs that would actually create light at this voltage.
So in conclusion: They are safe.
2 milliamps * 2 millivolts = 0.000004 watts.
So both LEDs are draining 0.000008 watts, or 0.008 milliwatts, or 8 microwatts.
When you remote-unlock your car, causing your fog lamps to turn on as you walk to your car.. lets say your fog lamps are on for 10 seconds before you start your engine. Lets also say the fog lamps are 35 watts/each (70watts total). In these 10 seconds, you will use up 194.4 milliwatt-hours of power (very little).
In order for you to use 194.4 milliwatt hours through these LEDs in "fake off" mode, they will have to be on like that for... 24,300 hours. Or.. 2.77 years straight.
But remember:
1) even after being dimly on for 2.77 years, you will only have used the equivalent of 10 seconds of fog lamps.
2) in my car, they turn off completely within 30 minutes. if they don't in yours, still not a measurable power drain.
The reason why they are on is because these LEDs are efficient enough to create light out of 8 microwatts of power. The stock halogen bulbs are definately nowhere near as efficient at those voltages. I think Ford engineers designed their system to output "pretty **** close to 0V" when it's "fake off" - and 1-2mV is pretty **** close to 0V. They just didn't take into account super-efficient LEDs that would actually create light at this voltage.
So in conclusion: They are safe.
9/29/07, 06:08 PM
#109
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Addendum: Also, I'd like to re-iterate that the stock bulbs will always be draining a similar amount of negligible current when they're "fake off."
9/29/07, 06:12 PM
#110
Legacy TMS Member
Ok guys, I measured the current through the LED when it's "off" but still glowing: 1-2 milliamps
2 milliamps * 2 millivolts = 0.000004 watts.
So both LEDs are draining 0.000008 watts, or 0.008 milliwatts, or 8 microwatts.
When you remote-unlock your car, causing your fog lamps to turn on as you walk to your car.. lets say your fog lamps are on for 10 seconds before you start your engine. Lets also say the fog lamps are 35 watts/each (70watts total). In these 10 seconds, you will use up 194.4 milliwatt-hours of power (very little).
In order for you to use 194.4 milliwatt hours through these LEDs in "fake off" mode, they will have to be on like that for... 24,300 hours. Or.. 2.77 years straight.
But remember:
1) even after being dimly on for 2.77 years, you will only have used the equivalent of 10 seconds of fog lamps.
2) in my car, they turn off completely within 30 minutes. if they don't in yours, still not a measurable power drain.
The reason why they are on is because these LEDs are efficient enough to create light out of 8 microwatts of power. The stock halogen bulbs are definately nowhere near as efficient at those voltages. I think Ford engineers designed their system to output "pretty **** close to 0V" when it's "fake off" - and 1-2mV is pretty **** close to 0V. They just didn't take into account super-efficient LEDs that would actually create light at this voltage.
So in conclusion: They are safe.
2 milliamps * 2 millivolts = 0.000004 watts.
So both LEDs are draining 0.000008 watts, or 0.008 milliwatts, or 8 microwatts.
When you remote-unlock your car, causing your fog lamps to turn on as you walk to your car.. lets say your fog lamps are on for 10 seconds before you start your engine. Lets also say the fog lamps are 35 watts/each (70watts total). In these 10 seconds, you will use up 194.4 milliwatt-hours of power (very little).
In order for you to use 194.4 milliwatt hours through these LEDs in "fake off" mode, they will have to be on like that for... 24,300 hours. Or.. 2.77 years straight.
But remember:
1) even after being dimly on for 2.77 years, you will only have used the equivalent of 10 seconds of fog lamps.
2) in my car, they turn off completely within 30 minutes. if they don't in yours, still not a measurable power drain.
The reason why they are on is because these LEDs are efficient enough to create light out of 8 microwatts of power. The stock halogen bulbs are definately nowhere near as efficient at those voltages. I think Ford engineers designed their system to output "pretty **** close to 0V" when it's "fake off" - and 1-2mV is pretty **** close to 0V. They just didn't take into account super-efficient LEDs that would actually create light at this voltage.
So in conclusion: They are safe.
The only lights that flash are the tail lamps and front sidemarkers/turn signals. I disabled the turning on of the fogs and headlamps to conserve on power and life of the bulbs.
The LED replacement bulbs can operate at sub-10 VDC, which means they were not made to comply with 12 VDC electrical system specifications. I'm not sure the Chinese vendors really care about FMVSS 108 / SAE regulations. The current draw isn't that big of a deal but I do not want my LEDs emitting light when I have turned them off, even minute as they are. In total darkness, you can still see the faint glow. I popped the rear seats to peer into the trunk and lo and behold the trunk light LED was still glowing even after 30 minutes.
I haven't had a chance to measure the current draw of the stock incandescent lamps with the system OFF. As far as I can tell, none of the map lights / trunk lights are halogens. They're basic incandescents filament bulbs.
I have all LEDs in the interior of my 2000 Crown Vic and the 2003 E-250. They stay OFF when the system is OFF, therefore I expect nothing less in the Mustang.
9/29/07, 06:22 PM
#111
Legacy TMS Member
The question becomes, how much current do they drain? I'm intrigued... Are you planning to check the current draw with the incandescent bulbs? I will do it tomorrow on my car.
9/29/07, 06:22 PM
#112
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My exterior lights do not stay on when I use the key fob to arm the alarm.
The only lights that flash are the tail lamps and front sidemarkers/turn signals. I disabled the turning on of the fogs and headlamps to conserve on power and life of the bulbs.
The LED replacement bulbs can operate at sub-10 VDC, which means they were not made to comply with 12 VDC electrical system specifications. I'm not sure the Chinese vendors really care about FMVSS 108 / SAE regulations. The current draw isn't that big of a deal but I do not want my LEDs emitting light when I have turned them off, even minute as they are. In total darkness, you can still see the faint glow. I popped the rear seats to peer into the trunk and lo and behold the trunk light LED was still glowing even after 30 minutes.
I haven't had a chance to measure the current draw of the stock incandescent lamps with the system OFF. As far as I can tell, none of the map lights / trunk lights are halogens. They're basic incandescents filament bulbs.
I have all LEDs in the interior of my 2000 Crown Vic and the 2003 E-250. They stay OFF when the system is OFF, therefore I expect nothing less in the Mustang.
The only lights that flash are the tail lamps and front sidemarkers/turn signals. I disabled the turning on of the fogs and headlamps to conserve on power and life of the bulbs.
The LED replacement bulbs can operate at sub-10 VDC, which means they were not made to comply with 12 VDC electrical system specifications. I'm not sure the Chinese vendors really care about FMVSS 108 / SAE regulations. The current draw isn't that big of a deal but I do not want my LEDs emitting light when I have turned them off, even minute as they are. In total darkness, you can still see the faint glow. I popped the rear seats to peer into the trunk and lo and behold the trunk light LED was still glowing even after 30 minutes.
I haven't had a chance to measure the current draw of the stock incandescent lamps with the system OFF. As far as I can tell, none of the map lights / trunk lights are halogens. They're basic incandescents filament bulbs.
I have all LEDs in the interior of my 2000 Crown Vic and the 2003 E-250. They stay OFF when the system is OFF, therefore I expect nothing less in the Mustang.
The map lights are getting 0.001-0.002V, so the power consumption is many many magnitudes less.
Halogens/Incandescents: Oops, sorry. I was incorrectly using "halogen" and "incandescent" interchangeably.. didn't know.
9/29/07, 06:38 PM
#113
Legacy TMS Member
No prob re: halogen/incandescent. The only real difference is in the filament design and the use of an inert gas to make them last longer and glow brighter.
It's interesting you mentioned the current draw for the stock incandescent bulbs. I went and ran some tests on some bulbs I had lying around. The stock incandescent trunk light bulb will draw 0.331A at 1.157 VDC but is not visibly lit or glowing. At the same voltage, the LEDs will neither glow nor draw current. The stock trunk bulb draws around 0.5-0.6A at 12+ VDC when it is fully lit up, while the LED only draws 0.050A at 12+ VDC.
The only thing that remains for me to check is how much the incandescents are drawing when installed in the car and when the system is "OFF". I can live with a dim glow if the LEDs are drawing considerably less current than the stock bulbs when the system is "OFF", since I would then know I am prolonging the life of the car battery.
It's interesting you mentioned the current draw for the stock incandescent bulbs. I went and ran some tests on some bulbs I had lying around. The stock incandescent trunk light bulb will draw 0.331A at 1.157 VDC but is not visibly lit or glowing. At the same voltage, the LEDs will neither glow nor draw current. The stock trunk bulb draws around 0.5-0.6A at 12+ VDC when it is fully lit up, while the LED only draws 0.050A at 12+ VDC.
The only thing that remains for me to check is how much the incandescents are drawing when installed in the car and when the system is "OFF". I can live with a dim glow if the LEDs are drawing considerably less current than the stock bulbs when the system is "OFF", since I would then know I am prolonging the life of the car battery.
9/29/07, 07:56 PM
#114
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No prob re: halogen/incandescent. The only real difference is in the filament design and the use of an inert gas to make them last longer and glow brighter.
It's interesting you mentioned the current draw for the stock incandescent bulbs. I went and ran some tests on some bulbs I had lying around. The stock incandescent trunk light bulb will draw 0.331A at 1.157 VDC but is not visibly lit or glowing. At the same voltage, the LEDs will neither glow nor draw current. The stock trunk bulb draws around 0.5-0.6A at 12+ VDC when it is fully lit up, while the LED only draws 0.050A at 12+ VDC.
The only thing that remains for me to check is how much the incandescents are drawing when installed in the car and when the system is "OFF". I can live with a dim glow if the LEDs are drawing considerably less current than the stock bulbs when the system is "OFF", since I would then know I am prolonging the life of the car battery.
It's interesting you mentioned the current draw for the stock incandescent bulbs. I went and ran some tests on some bulbs I had lying around. The stock incandescent trunk light bulb will draw 0.331A at 1.157 VDC but is not visibly lit or glowing. At the same voltage, the LEDs will neither glow nor draw current. The stock trunk bulb draws around 0.5-0.6A at 12+ VDC when it is fully lit up, while the LED only draws 0.050A at 12+ VDC.
The only thing that remains for me to check is how much the incandescents are drawing when installed in the car and when the system is "OFF". I can live with a dim glow if the LEDs are drawing considerably less current than the stock bulbs when the system is "OFF", since I would then know I am prolonging the life of the car battery.
Wow, 0.3A @ 1V when "Off"! That's pretty high.
9/30/07, 06:34 AM
#115
Legacy TMS Member
I did some more datalogging using the trunk light (easiest to access).
Let's start with the incandescent 211-2:
With the bulb removed from the socket, the voltage when "ON" is 12.66 VDC (battery voltage). The voltage when "OFF" is 9.65 VDC.
With the bulb installed in the socket, the voltage when "ON" is 12.6 VDC and draws 0.961A and the voltage when "OFF" is very close to 0 VDC, and draws 120 uA.
Using an LED bulb, the voltage when ON is 12.65 VDC and draws 56.6 mA. The voltage when OFF is 6.8 VDC and it draws 52 uA and the LED is visibly, albeit dimly, lit.
Let's start with the incandescent 211-2:
With the bulb removed from the socket, the voltage when "ON" is 12.66 VDC (battery voltage). The voltage when "OFF" is 9.65 VDC.
With the bulb installed in the socket, the voltage when "ON" is 12.6 VDC and draws 0.961A and the voltage when "OFF" is very close to 0 VDC, and draws 120 uA.
Using an LED bulb, the voltage when ON is 12.65 VDC and draws 56.6 mA. The voltage when OFF is 6.8 VDC and it draws 52 uA and the LED is visibly, albeit dimly, lit.
9/30/07, 07:57 AM
#116
Team Mustang Source
So basically what we have learned here is this: The LED bulbs will NOT drain your battery, but MAY light up a little bit while they are suppose to be off.
9/30/07, 08:12 AM
#117
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
So maybe I should have keep mine maybe? 
Doh! I already returned it!
I don't like the idea in the back of my mind that the battery could be drained out by the time I get off work or something.
I never expected to have this much problems with a freaking light blub!
Doh! I already returned it!
I don't like the idea in the back of my mind that the battery could be drained out by the time I get off work or something.
I never expected to have this much problems with a freaking light blub!
9/30/07, 08:35 AM
#118
Legacy TMS Member
I'm not sure what is going on with the SJB's low current board, but I think the incandescent bulbs are a big enough load that it saps the low current feed from the SJB, resulting in a voltage drop of 9.65 VDC (down to 0 VDC) but still draws 120 uA of current. If it were totally shut off (like a true open circuit), we'd see 0 VDC and 0A of current draw.
With the LEDs, they're not drawing enough current so the voltage only drops to 6.88 VDC with 50 uA current draw.
I have installed the LEDs and will monitor the voltage at the battery over the week to see what is going on.
FYI: Don't buy the 90* flanked LEDs for the map lights. After evaluating them, I have found that the straight LEDs (ones that illuminate forward of the connector/socket) work great but a 360* LED would be even better. I'll keep my eyes peeled for those on eBay. I am currently using the blue LEDs in the map lights and trunk light.
With the LEDs, they're not drawing enough current so the voltage only drops to 6.88 VDC with 50 uA current draw.
I have installed the LEDs and will monitor the voltage at the battery over the week to see what is going on.
FYI: Don't buy the 90* flanked LEDs for the map lights. After evaluating them, I have found that the straight LEDs (ones that illuminate forward of the connector/socket) work great but a 360* LED would be even better. I'll keep my eyes peeled for those on eBay. I am currently using the blue LEDs in the map lights and trunk light.
9/30/07, 05:58 PM
#119
Legacy TMS Member
Update: The LEDs DO in fact shut off, but I did not determine the exact time. I simply locked the doors via the fob and checked the LEDs about 3 hours later. I didn't see anything, so I locked the doors again via the fob and the LEDs became dimly lit. Unlocking the doors results in full brightness.
So it appears the SJB does shut off power to the LEDs after a certain time. I do not expect the LEDs in the dimly lit mode to draw a significant amount of current. I'm going to monitor voltage throughout the week and see if there's any noticeable draw on the battery with normal usage of the car.
So it appears the SJB does shut off power to the LEDs after a certain time. I do not expect the LEDs in the dimly lit mode to draw a significant amount of current. I'm going to monitor voltage throughout the week and see if there's any noticeable draw on the battery with normal usage of the car.
9/30/07, 07:39 PM
#120
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update: The LEDs DO in fact shut off, but I did not determine the exact time. I simply locked the doors via the fob and checked the LEDs about 3 hours later. I didn't see anything, so I locked the doors again via the fob and the LEDs became dimly lit. Unlocking the doors results in full brightness.
So it appears the SJB does shut off power to the LEDs after a certain time. I do not expect the LEDs in the dimly lit mode to draw a significant amount of current. I'm going to monitor voltage throughout the week and see if there's any noticeable draw on the battery with normal usage of the car.
So it appears the SJB does shut off power to the LEDs after a certain time. I do not expect the LEDs in the dimly lit mode to draw a significant amount of current. I'm going to monitor voltage throughout the week and see if there's any noticeable draw on the battery with normal usage of the car.
I'm done with testing for now. I lost BOTH of my LEDs in nooks and crannies of the car (maybe they're in the center console area, in the e-brake hole). It's not easy trying to get an ammeter in series while holding a wire & a bulb with two hands... The bulbs kept slipping out of my fingers because I was slippery from leather treatment. 