Tuning for cams?
11/22/05, 02:16 AM
#62
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Originally posted by eighty6gt@November 19, 2005, 4:27 PM
Fourcam also claimed that all ford engines are broken in on dyno's at Ford. Poor guy.
Fourcam also claimed that all ford engines are broken in on dyno's at Ford. Poor guy.
Maybe you need to get your hiney to an engine plant in your area. I toured the Duratec plant near Cleveland around two years ago. All those motors are hot tested on engine dynos before leaving. They are run from WOT from idle to redline repeatedly to test and by consequence the rings are seated. Evidently you've never seen what happens when the rings get washed out in a new motor?
11/22/05, 05:56 AM
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Off topic, but I have seen the 7.3 Powerstroke Ford truck engines at Navistar go through a start up and run (to verify function) process. The engines were on pallets and would go around a conveyor system past test cells. As soon as a cell was open, the next engine to come by would go to that cell for a test run. I don't recall what data was collected.
I think the "new" 6.0 Powerstrokes go through a similar process.
I think the "new" 6.0 Powerstrokes go through a similar process.
11/22/05, 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by Fourcam330@November 22, 2005, 4:05 AM
If you would be so kind as to direct me to the parts where I was "throwing numbers in the air." I would greatly appreciate it. Also, it appears to me that you've wheeled yourself to first place in the S.O. 100M dash; can you feel the irony internet tough guy? LMAO
Call me what you want, I simply don't beat around the bush. I say what I mean and I don't let tact get in the way. On top of that, and most pertinent to this discussion, I get paid to write Modular tech.
I don't feel out of line stating that I've likely forgotten more about these motors than you'll ever care to learn. I am by no means an expert on my own accord, however I'm in constant contact with THE experts in the industry (Al Papitto, the Tymenskys, John Mihovetz) regarding what works and what doesn't. These guys are the trailblazers, the record holders, everyone else follows in their footsteps.
384/374rw quite simply isn't going to happen from a stock intake, stock shortblock 4.6 3V. The limiting factor for power production in ANY small bore OHC multi valve engine is valve seat/valve size PERIOD. Honestly I'm not sure what else you need to see in that post to realize that BBR was lying through their teeth.
You also have to remember that this motor used a solid valvetrain (with non solid cam grinds which will beat their valvetrain to death in a few hundred miles or less if it hasn't happened already) which is not at all feasible for a street car. To date Second Street Speed, Jesel, and a host of other companies have attempted solid VTs to no avail. No one can keep the adj. nut from backing off, even with locking nuts, etc. Besides, no one grinds solid profile cams for Modulars so there's really no point.
As for BBRs bogus head flow data, two reputable head porters (Fox Lake, Kris Starnes) are reporting ported 05 heads flowing 250-260cfm @ .500" lift or roughly 25-30 cfm less than what BBR claims with theirs (SS valves used in both).
IMO, I can see a full bolt on (not including the redneck short or no belt mod) stock shortblock 4.6 3v with ported heads, billet cams, and stock intake putting down around 355-360rw tops with rw torque somewhere in the 340s. With a shortened stock intake (plastic welder) you may gain 10-15rw more.
That speculation won't have to last long as Al is currently building a N/A 3V with ported heads, billet Crower cams, a shortened stock intake, his own dual spring kit with Ti locks/retainers, SS valves, and a forged shortblock. If you're staying N/A with a 3v this is the build you should be watching for; Al can milk 500HP from a 1.5L 2V OHC 4 banger, and has had the highest HP/TQ N/A 5.4 for the last 5 years. Not including his record breaking Factory Stock 4.6s, or his new Pure Street 4Vs, etc. etc.
All this is contained in the Corral post along with a pooload of other facts regarding Modular motors. What have you brought to the table besides a lame hiney attitude, zero facts, and a knowledge of these motors my bullmastiff would put to shame? :scratch:
If you would be so kind as to direct me to the parts where I was "throwing numbers in the air." I would greatly appreciate it. Also, it appears to me that you've wheeled yourself to first place in the S.O. 100M dash; can you feel the irony internet tough guy? LMAO
Call me what you want, I simply don't beat around the bush. I say what I mean and I don't let tact get in the way. On top of that, and most pertinent to this discussion, I get paid to write Modular tech.
I don't feel out of line stating that I've likely forgotten more about these motors than you'll ever care to learn. I am by no means an expert on my own accord, however I'm in constant contact with THE experts in the industry (Al Papitto, the Tymenskys, John Mihovetz) regarding what works and what doesn't. These guys are the trailblazers, the record holders, everyone else follows in their footsteps.
384/374rw quite simply isn't going to happen from a stock intake, stock shortblock 4.6 3V. The limiting factor for power production in ANY small bore OHC multi valve engine is valve seat/valve size PERIOD. Honestly I'm not sure what else you need to see in that post to realize that BBR was lying through their teeth.
You also have to remember that this motor used a solid valvetrain (with non solid cam grinds which will beat their valvetrain to death in a few hundred miles or less if it hasn't happened already) which is not at all feasible for a street car. To date Second Street Speed, Jesel, and a host of other companies have attempted solid VTs to no avail. No one can keep the adj. nut from backing off, even with locking nuts, etc. Besides, no one grinds solid profile cams for Modulars so there's really no point.
As for BBRs bogus head flow data, two reputable head porters (Fox Lake, Kris Starnes) are reporting ported 05 heads flowing 250-260cfm @ .500" lift or roughly 25-30 cfm less than what BBR claims with theirs (SS valves used in both).
IMO, I can see a full bolt on (not including the redneck short or no belt mod) stock shortblock 4.6 3v with ported heads, billet cams, and stock intake putting down around 355-360rw tops with rw torque somewhere in the 340s. With a shortened stock intake (plastic welder) you may gain 10-15rw more.
That speculation won't have to last long as Al is currently building a N/A 3V with ported heads, billet Crower cams, a shortened stock intake, his own dual spring kit with Ti locks/retainers, SS valves, and a forged shortblock. If you're staying N/A with a 3v this is the build you should be watching for; Al can milk 500HP from a 1.5L 2V OHC 4 banger, and has had the highest HP/TQ N/A 5.4 for the last 5 years. Not including his record breaking Factory Stock 4.6s, or his new Pure Street 4Vs, etc. etc.
All this is contained in the Corral post along with a pooload of other facts regarding Modular motors. What have you brought to the table besides a lame hiney attitude, zero facts, and a knowledge of these motors my bullmastiff would put to shame? :scratch:
11/22/05, 09:16 AM
#66
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max2000jp, if Fourcam didnt exist or make comments about the limiting factors of Modulars and how they make power, I would have to agree that engine design dictates how much power you can produce. His points ARE VALID and he has learned from THE BEST.
It is easy to read that Modular Engine Performance 101 is lost on you, Max, as well as so many others. You are just playing Devil's Advocate.
Please, :zipit: already cause the 3v Head and its characteristics will not allow for power to be produced like it does in 4v Heads with an apples to apples comparison of sorts. VCT or not, we are still not going to produce all that power without going into something else to get there. Engine Performance is a science, introduce heavy electronics to it like VCT and it can become more of an art.
So yeah, if a head only flows so much to allow for a certain horsepower level, thats all youre going to get. Magic, mirrors and the like, isnt going to be performed by Copperfield to make those high numbers. The 3v head is an awesome part but it is flawed.
And I can trust FourCam or any other Modular Tech's "speculation" about what the 3v can make. His educated guess overshadows your guestimate (lacks education) any day.
-Dan
It is easy to read that Modular Engine Performance 101 is lost on you, Max, as well as so many others. You are just playing Devil's Advocate.
Please, :zipit: already cause the 3v Head and its characteristics will not allow for power to be produced like it does in 4v Heads with an apples to apples comparison of sorts. VCT or not, we are still not going to produce all that power without going into something else to get there. Engine Performance is a science, introduce heavy electronics to it like VCT and it can become more of an art.
So yeah, if a head only flows so much to allow for a certain horsepower level, thats all youre going to get. Magic, mirrors and the like, isnt going to be performed by Copperfield to make those high numbers. The 3v head is an awesome part but it is flawed.
And I can trust FourCam or any other Modular Tech's "speculation" about what the 3v can make. His educated guess overshadows your guestimate (lacks education) any day.
-Dan
11/22/05, 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by Cleveland@November 22, 2005, 11:19 AM
max2000jp, if Fourcam didnt exist or make comments about the limiting factors of Modulars and how they make power, I would have to agree that engine design dictates how much power you can produce. His points ARE VALID and he has learned from THE BEST.
It is easy to read that Modular Engine Performance 101 is lost on you, Max, as well as so many others. You are just playing Devil's Advocate.
Please, :zipit: already cause the 3v Head and its characteristics will not allow for power to be produced like it does in 4v Heads with an apples to apples comparison of sorts. VCT or not, we are still not going to produce all that power without going into something else to get there. Engine Performance is a science, introduce heavy electronics to it like VCT and it can become more of an art.
So yeah, if a head only flows so much to allow for a certain horsepower level, thats all youre going to get. Magic, mirrors and the like, isnt going to be performed by Copperfield to make those high numbers. The 3v head is an awesome part but it is flawed.
And I can trust FourCam or any other Modular Tech's "speculation" about what the 3v can make. His educated guess overshadows your guestimate (lacks education) any day.
-Dan
max2000jp, if Fourcam didnt exist or make comments about the limiting factors of Modulars and how they make power, I would have to agree that engine design dictates how much power you can produce. His points ARE VALID and he has learned from THE BEST.
It is easy to read that Modular Engine Performance 101 is lost on you, Max, as well as so many others. You are just playing Devil's Advocate.
Please, :zipit: already cause the 3v Head and its characteristics will not allow for power to be produced like it does in 4v Heads with an apples to apples comparison of sorts. VCT or not, we are still not going to produce all that power without going into something else to get there. Engine Performance is a science, introduce heavy electronics to it like VCT and it can become more of an art.
So yeah, if a head only flows so much to allow for a certain horsepower level, thats all youre going to get. Magic, mirrors and the like, isnt going to be performed by Copperfield to make those high numbers. The 3v head is an awesome part but it is flawed.
And I can trust FourCam or any other Modular Tech's "speculation" about what the 3v can make. His educated guess overshadows your guestimate (lacks education) any day.
-Dan
FYI....All internal combustion engines are flawed in their inherent design.
11/22/05, 11:22 AM
#68
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 22, 2005, 11:27 AM
Since your general comprehension is lacking, I will bold the parts where you contradict yourself. Your post shows that you live vicariously through Al Pappitto. Again, if you read my posts, I state that I don't believe BBR's information. I do believe that these cars are capable of the power that they are falsely claiming. Again, I am by no means a 3V expert. I have spoken with a local tuner whom has the world's fastest 3V. Per my conversation, I think that us 3V owners can reach power levels in the ballpark of BBR's falsified numbers in the near future. The fact of the matter is you and I don't know what theses engines are ultimately capable of just yet. Stating what a 3V can and can't do is stupid at this point and you are truely pulling numbers from the air.
Since your general comprehension is lacking, I will bold the parts where you contradict yourself. Your post shows that you live vicariously through Al Pappitto. Again, if you read my posts, I state that I don't believe BBR's information. I do believe that these cars are capable of the power that they are falsely claiming. Again, I am by no means a 3V expert. I have spoken with a local tuner whom has the world's fastest 3V. Per my conversation, I think that us 3V owners can reach power levels in the ballpark of BBR's falsified numbers in the near future. The fact of the matter is you and I don't know what theses engines are ultimately capable of just yet. Stating what a 3V can and can't do is stupid at this point and you are truely pulling numbers from the air.
Disagree if you must, but I'll take the combined knowledge of my backing vs yours any day of the week.
As for me living through Al, lol, he and the other names mentioned are the best in the Modular business end of story. Name anyone that's achieved 1/10th of what Al, John T or John M has...You can't, simply put. No one else has made 2000HP from a .020 over 4.6 with B heads, or 600rw+ from a big bore 5.9L N/A, or 560+rw from a N/A 5.4, 420+rw from N/A pump gas 4.6s, etc. the list goes on. Know anyone else that's made 300HP/L N/A with a small bore OHC 2v? Didn't think so.
If it's a naturally aspirated Modular of record breaking proportions it was built by one of these guys. No one else is even in the same ballpark. The information they provide is not only the most accurate and accountable, you can rest assured it is the best available.
Go ahead and take the word of your tuner regarding engines, most tuners don't know which end of the shortblock goes up.
We won't have to wait long for you to be proven wrong, don't worry
11/22/05, 11:35 AM
#69
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 22, 2005, 12:49 PM
I don't care whom he learned from. Some of the greatest minds like Einstein were wrong from time to time. Relating this subject back to Einstein, you guys are basing your information on theory and trying to pass it along as fact. Again, you guys are skipping over my posts and not reading. I have never claimed to be a 3V expert, nor do I stand behind BBR's numbers. My main arguement was against your original statement "Dont go thinking you can get 380 to the tires just yet with a simple cam swap and P&P work. The last thing any of us should do is start overadvertising with the risk of looking really stupid. " Making a statement like that is stupid at this point because there is simply no way to prove it. Show me a dyno of a head/cam 3V Mustang and I will admit to being wrong. I am eagerly awaiting this dyno because it is a mod I am highly considering. My other arguement was against FourCam's posts in the corral thread. Actions speak louder than words...
FYI....All internal combustion engines are flawed in their inherent design.
I don't care whom he learned from. Some of the greatest minds like Einstein were wrong from time to time. Relating this subject back to Einstein, you guys are basing your information on theory and trying to pass it along as fact. Again, you guys are skipping over my posts and not reading. I have never claimed to be a 3V expert, nor do I stand behind BBR's numbers. My main arguement was against your original statement "Dont go thinking you can get 380 to the tires just yet with a simple cam swap and P&P work. The last thing any of us should do is start overadvertising with the risk of looking really stupid. " Making a statement like that is stupid at this point because there is simply no way to prove it. Show me a dyno of a head/cam 3V Mustang and I will admit to being wrong. I am eagerly awaiting this dyno because it is a mod I am highly considering. My other arguement was against FourCam's posts in the corral thread. Actions speak louder than words...
FYI....All internal combustion engines are flawed in their inherent design.
Relating Einstein to this conversation is fairly comical, we're not talking about theories on energy, particles, or even gravity, we're talking about airflow in a small bore OHC multi valve motor. The proof is in the pudding. Before you open your trap to the contrary why don't you go out and build yourself a 380rw stock intake, stock shortblock 3v? It's not going to happen in street driven trim period. Eventually I can see a fully modified (built shortblock for more compression and rpm, etc.)3V hitting 400rw, but it won't be with the stock bottom end and intake. Don't believe me go ahead and give John, or Al a call (Mihovetz wouldn't even take your call), they will gladly hand you your opinion on a platter.
I could care less what a completely ignorant keyboard jockey like you thinks of my posts. As I've previously stated, quite often what I tell people isn't what they're looking to hear, some find that offensive or brash. Like me or not, I probably saved somebody some $ by not going with BBRs junk parts, and at the end of the day I can live with that. You are the worst kind of hypocrite, someone with zero knowledge, just a huge mouth flapping in the wind. Before shooting it off again, do some reading regarding what the limiting factors are in this case. Anyone with a triple digit IQ should be able to handle that NP.
Finally, don't put all your cookies in the "dyno's are proof" basket. As you should have learned from the BBR thread, dynos are as easily manipulated as anything.
11/22/05, 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by Fourcam330@November 22, 2005, 1:38 PM
Is that little tidbit about IC engines supposed to make you look intelligent or well versed on this topic?
The proof is in the pudding. Before you open your trap to the contrary why don't you go out and build yourself a 380rw stock intake, stock shortblock 3v? It's not going to happen in street driven trim period. Eventually I can see a fully modified (built shortblock for more compression and rpm, etc.)3V hitting 400rw, but it won't be with the stock bottom end and intake. Don't believe me go ahead and give John, or Al a call (Mihovetz wouldn't even take your call), they will gladly hand you your opinion on a platter.
I could care less what a completely ignorant keyboard jockey like you thinks of my posts. Like them or not, they probably saved somebody some $ by not going with BBRs junk parts. You are the worst kind of hypocrite, someone with zero knowledge and a huge mouth flapping in the wind.
Finally, don't put all your cookies in the "dyno's are proof" basket. As you should have learned from the BBR thread, dynos are as easily manipulated as anything.
Is that little tidbit about IC engines supposed to make you look intelligent or well versed on this topic?
The proof is in the pudding. Before you open your trap to the contrary why don't you go out and build yourself a 380rw stock intake, stock shortblock 3v? It's not going to happen in street driven trim period. Eventually I can see a fully modified (built shortblock for more compression and rpm, etc.)3V hitting 400rw, but it won't be with the stock bottom end and intake. Don't believe me go ahead and give John, or Al a call (Mihovetz wouldn't even take your call), they will gladly hand you your opinion on a platter.
I could care less what a completely ignorant keyboard jockey like you thinks of my posts. Like them or not, they probably saved somebody some $ by not going with BBRs junk parts. You are the worst kind of hypocrite, someone with zero knowledge and a huge mouth flapping in the wind.
Finally, don't put all your cookies in the "dyno's are proof" basket. As you should have learned from the BBR thread, dynos are as easily manipulated as anything.
I am not making all these claims throwing out it write for Modular tech and know blah blah blah. Again, I will ask....How many 3V engines have you taken apart? How many 3V engines have you modified? How many have you tuned? What shop do you work for? Where is your dyno proof with track evidence? See where I am going here. I am sure you will come back to me with some smart comment or excuse. You are exactly like BBR. Keep your BS on the corral.
You want to keep this up, lets take it to PM. Otherwise I am done with you.
11/22/05, 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by Fourcam330@November 22, 2005, 1:25 PM
Go ahead and take the word of your tuner regarding engines, most tuners don't know which end of the shortblock goes up.
We won't have to wait long for you to be proven wrong, don't worry
Go ahead and take the word of your tuner regarding engines, most tuners don't know which end of the shortblock goes up.
We won't have to wait long for you to be proven wrong, don't worry
Sorry, I am honestly done now. Just wanted to make that clear.
c: :flame2: 
:ranting: 
:bang:
11/22/05, 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 22, 2005, 3:03 PM
I would disagree with that statement and their achievements would too. The company I spoke with over the phone was SuttonHP. A phone call might be in order to see if they really don't know what end of the shortblock goes up
Sorry, I am honestly done now. Just wanted to make that clear.
I would disagree with that statement and their achievements would too. The company I spoke with over the phone was SuttonHP. A phone call might be in order to see if they really don't know what end of the shortblock goes up
Sorry, I am honestly done now. Just wanted to make that clear.
LMAO, they're still struggling to make 800HP with a 3V when others have made 1100rw with a 2V, yep top of the heap.
11/22/05, 04:08 PM
#75
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 22, 2005, 3:01 PM
Again, your lack of education shows once again. Show me where I proclaim I am an expert. I flat out state that I have an average education in regards to building engines. I applaud people like Doug@Bama and Brenspeed for testing products and backing it up with technical knowledge. You are the one causing a multi-page thread flaming about something that you don't have experience with. Why do you keep mentioning Al, John etc? Can't they speak for themselves? I bet they love that you mention their names while acting like a child. Really great for business!
Again, your lack of education shows once again. Show me where I proclaim I am an expert. I flat out state that I have an average education in regards to building engines. I applaud people like Doug@Bama and Brenspeed for testing products and backing it up with technical knowledge. You are the one causing a multi-page thread flaming about something that you don't have experience with. Why do you keep mentioning Al, John etc? Can't they speak for themselves? I bet they love that you mention their names while acting like a child. Really great for business!
To doubt this you'd have to be a true neanderthal.
I have no idea who Doug/Bama or Brenspeed are, but unless they've done something no one else has, and continue to do so on a regular basis, I don't think I'll be hitting them up for industry secrets anytime soon. When you're in with the best why $%&# with the rest? Evidently you forgot that Modulars have been around since '91, meaning the rest of the industry has over a decade more experience than the new 05 specific shops.
As for me hurting MP, or Al's business, LOL, r i g h t. I think you need to go to back to school regarding more things than Modular motors.
I am not making all these claims throwing out it write for Modular tech and know blah blah blah. Again, I will ask....How many 3V engines have you taken apart? How many 3V engines have you modified? How many have you tuned? What shop do you work for? Where is your dyno proof with track evidence? See where I am going here. I am sure you will come back to me with some smart comment or excuse. You are exactly like BBR. Keep your BS on the corral.
You want to keep this up, lets take it to PM. Otherwise I am done with you.
You want to keep this up, lets take it to PM. Otherwise I am done with you.
I don't work for a shop, and I have absolutely no plans to. I enjoy the freedom of being independant and calling them like I see them. Besides, we already know who the best is, again there's no sense in wasting time with anyone else.
We can compare degrees, standardized test scores, or even IQs anytime you'd like. I highly doubt that you are also a card carrying Mensa member?
I'm going to PM you my cell #. I'll gladly eat your lunch over the phone all night long loser. The bottom line here is that you're an attention craving keyboard warrior with his head stuck firmly up his hiney. I bring knowledge and facts to the table and you reply with drivel about how Sutton HP is the world's leader in 3V tuning. :scratch: Look for that PM right about now.
Just noticed you were born in '81, I guess that might have something to do with the omniscience you possess
11/22/05, 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by 2005RedGT@November 22, 2005, 6:25 PM
Goto PM. Noone wants to read this garbage. Don't turn this forum into Stangnet or Corral. Lots of people don't go there, just becasue of this kinda crap.
-Bryan
Goto PM. Noone wants to read this garbage. Don't turn this forum into Stangnet or Corral. Lots of people don't go there, just becasue of this kinda crap.
-Bryan
Truth be told you'd be lucky for this site to morph into something as full of tech and real knowledge as the Corral. At present the majority of what's posted here mirrors the likes of Mustangworld/Stangnet.
11/22/05, 04:28 PM
#78
Sit back, relax and enjoy the show.... haha
11/22/05, 04:34 PM
#80
I Have No Life
Fourcam: we may not have the numbers or technical combined prowess of said sites...but we strive on a comunity that enjoys it all.
From newbies to experienced.... and everything inbetween.
You are more than welcome to stay...
However please adhere to the rules of the site.
That goes for everyone in this thread
It's getting slightly out of hand.
Technical discussion = good
Blamestorming = Bad
I'm closing this thread as its turned into a monster which this site is not.
Carry on in personal messages if you feel.
From newbies to experienced.... and everything inbetween.
You are more than welcome to stay...
However please adhere to the rules of the site.
That goes for everyone in this thread
It's getting slightly out of hand.
Technical discussion = good
Blamestorming = Bad
I'm closing this thread as its turned into a monster which this site is not.
Carry on in personal messages if you feel.
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