Tuning for cams?
#21
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Originally posted by Cleveland@November 19, 2005, 4:33 AM
Dont go thinking you can get 380 to the tires just yet with a simple cam swap and P&P work. The last thing any of us should do is start overadvertising with the risk of looking really stupid.
Come spring time a lot will be available, lets try to keep it cool till someone gets to a dyno that isnt biased.
By the by, Blow-By-Racing is bad, have I said that before? :P
-Dan
Dont go thinking you can get 380 to the tires just yet with a simple cam swap and P&P work. The last thing any of us should do is start overadvertising with the risk of looking really stupid.
Come spring time a lot will be available, lets try to keep it cool till someone gets to a dyno that isnt biased.
By the by, Blow-By-Racing is bad, have I said that before? :P
-Dan
As for that thread, I read it and can't post on the corral for some reason yet. That FourCam330 guy is just as bad as Blow By. The immaturity in that thread is very high.
#22
I was going to go with BBR's cams...Something told me not to, I didn't trust them...I'm glad I went with my gut on this one. I am waiting on Comp Cams, I trust them and they alway's put out the best cam's.
#23
Comp, Crane, Cower... Just see who comes up with the profiles that are best for what you wish to do with the motor. Be it a turbo, SC, nitrous or N/A street/strip.
As for that FourCam guy, I wouldnt call him immature.... If someone advertised something that went against everything you've ever known and then made some pretty retarded comments to deter the rants I would expect that person to be pretty pissed and it would show in the posts.
He knows his stuff and Im glad hes looking out for all of us and handing BBR their A.S.S. And remember, FourCam isnt representing anybody but himself and he isnt in the business.
-Dan
As for that FourCam guy, I wouldnt call him immature.... If someone advertised something that went against everything you've ever known and then made some pretty retarded comments to deter the rants I would expect that person to be pretty pissed and it would show in the posts.
He knows his stuff and Im glad hes looking out for all of us and handing BBR their A.S.S. And remember, FourCam isnt representing anybody but himself and he isnt in the business.
-Dan
#24
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Fourcam also claimed that all ford engines are broken in on dyno's at Ford. Poor guy.
I wonder if the tuning community, or more specifically SCT and their dealers are going to have to start collaborating in order to fill the need for all of the future tunes.
Ex:
JLT intake, comp cams, offroad h
JLT intake, crower cams, stock exhaust
K&N, comp, cat back
etc.
No single tuner is going to be able to have canned tunes available for these combinations, and not everyone has a local tuner that they'd trust w/their car.
I wonder if the tuning community, or more specifically SCT and their dealers are going to have to start collaborating in order to fill the need for all of the future tunes.
Ex:
JLT intake, comp cams, offroad h
JLT intake, crower cams, stock exhaust
K&N, comp, cat back
etc.
No single tuner is going to be able to have canned tunes available for these combinations, and not everyone has a local tuner that they'd trust w/their car.
#25
I'm not too familiar with Comp Cams, but had a couple quick questions. What is the typical cost for a mod like this, and how difficult is something like this to do?
I am just finishing up on my mods now, but maybe in a year or 2 once I am past the 36,000 mile warranty, I may look into more things to add, and if 30+ HP is obtainable, it looks like something that would be worth doing.
I don't really ever race or go to the track, I just enjoy having a powerful car, so is this something that is more geared towards racing and track use, or is it something that would be practical for everyday street driving. I hate to sound like a newbie, but on this subject, I am.
I am just finishing up on my mods now, but maybe in a year or 2 once I am past the 36,000 mile warranty, I may look into more things to add, and if 30+ HP is obtainable, it looks like something that would be worth doing.
I don't really ever race or go to the track, I just enjoy having a powerful car, so is this something that is more geared towards racing and track use, or is it something that would be practical for everyday street driving. I hate to sound like a newbie, but on this subject, I am.
#26
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I'd expect cams to cost close to 1000 bucks.
The only thing I'd be worried about with the swap was keeping the timing in order (shouldn't be too hard, just be careful) and getting the VCT stuff matched up to the new cams. I think there's some kind of pins that crush or something when the VCT hardware is attached at the factory, these would need to be replaced, unless I don't remember correctly.
Getting at the cams is easy. To change the springs you'd probably just put some rope into the cyl and bring it up to tdc to hold the valves up, or use compressed air and then change them out.
Were I to do this mod I would probably ditch the IMRC's at the same time. My car is getting 4.30's so low end torque will not be at a premium.
I bet the you would want to move the rev limit up as well, so you'd be entering unexplored territory by revving the bottom end up 500 or so extra rpm at every shift. I hope Ford has it done right, but who knows. I know the Cobras had crummy oil pump gears that caused problems.
I'd say if you wanted to keep the stock gears I'd stick w/the stock setup, but if you go to deep gearing, your car would still be very streetable. And much, much faster.
The only thing I'd be worried about with the swap was keeping the timing in order (shouldn't be too hard, just be careful) and getting the VCT stuff matched up to the new cams. I think there's some kind of pins that crush or something when the VCT hardware is attached at the factory, these would need to be replaced, unless I don't remember correctly.
Getting at the cams is easy. To change the springs you'd probably just put some rope into the cyl and bring it up to tdc to hold the valves up, or use compressed air and then change them out.
Were I to do this mod I would probably ditch the IMRC's at the same time. My car is getting 4.30's so low end torque will not be at a premium.
I bet the you would want to move the rev limit up as well, so you'd be entering unexplored territory by revving the bottom end up 500 or so extra rpm at every shift. I hope Ford has it done right, but who knows. I know the Cobras had crummy oil pump gears that caused problems.
I'd say if you wanted to keep the stock gears I'd stick w/the stock setup, but if you go to deep gearing, your car would still be very streetable. And much, much faster.
#27
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Originally posted by Cleveland@November 19, 2005, 2:52 PM
Comp, Crane, Cower... Just see who comes up with the profiles that are best for what you wish to do with the motor. Be it a turbo, SC, nitrous or N/A street/strip.
As for that FourCam guy, I wouldnt call him immature.... If someone advertised something that went against everything you've ever known and then made some pretty retarded comments to deter the rants I would expect that person to be pretty pissed and it would show in the posts.
He knows his stuff and Im glad hes looking out for all of us and handing BBR their A.S.S. And remember, FourCam isnt representing anybody but himself and he isnt in the business.
-Dan
Comp, Crane, Cower... Just see who comes up with the profiles that are best for what you wish to do with the motor. Be it a turbo, SC, nitrous or N/A street/strip.
As for that FourCam guy, I wouldnt call him immature.... If someone advertised something that went against everything you've ever known and then made some pretty retarded comments to deter the rants I would expect that person to be pretty pissed and it would show in the posts.
He knows his stuff and Im glad hes looking out for all of us and handing BBR their A.S.S. And remember, FourCam isnt representing anybody but himself and he isnt in the business.
-Dan
#28
Originally posted by Cleveland@November 18, 2005, 7:07 AM
"Huge gains" could very well possibly mean about 15-20 to the rear tires, 30 would be much more than what I would expect and is reaching into that "pretty far fetched" territory.
"Huge gains" could very well possibly mean about 15-20 to the rear tires, 30 would be much more than what I would expect and is reaching into that "pretty far fetched" territory.
#29
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Just to inform you...Fourcam has a business outside of this industry. He also writes tech articles for a number of mags..including 5.0/MMFF. He is very knowledgeable. He doesn't turn the wrenches himself and has been burned before. He has pretty much taken a personal stance to help prevent people like you from getting burned from companies like BBR. That whole thread is about BBR posting numbers and Fourcam challenging those numbers. He posted a lot of facts, mainly related to 2v/4v and showing how he doesn't think the #'s are possible that BBR posted. He offered to pay for everthing IF the numbers proved true. He just wanted objective proof disclosed.
He is quick to rip into someone if they say something goofy. I find it pretty entertaining though. I don't believe you have to actually tear into an 4.6L 3V to have all the knowledge in the world. There are some guys/gals that can look at spec #'s and be able to read and translate it.
He may be harsh, but has a lot of knowledge
He is quick to rip into someone if they say something goofy. I find it pretty entertaining though. I don't believe you have to actually tear into an 4.6L 3V to have all the knowledge in the world. There are some guys/gals that can look at spec #'s and be able to read and translate it.
He may be harsh, but has a lot of knowledge
#30
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Originally posted by 169stang@November 21, 2005, 11:29 AM
Just to inform you...Fourcam has a business outside of this industry. He also writes tech articles for a number of mags..including 5.0/MMFF. He is very knowledgeable. He doesn't turn the wrenches himself and has been burned before. He has pretty much taken a personal stance to help prevent people like you from getting burned from companies like BBR. That whole thread is about BBR posting numbers and Fourcam challenging those numbers. He posted a lot of facts, mainly related to 2v/4v and showing how he doesn't think the #'s are possible that BBR posted. He offered to pay for everthing IF the numbers proved true. He just wanted objective proof disclosed.
He is quick to rip into someone if they say something goofy. I find it pretty entertaining though. I don't believe you have to actually tear into an 4.6L 3V to have all the knowledge in the world. There are some guys/gals that can look at spec #'s and be able to read and translate it.
He may be harsh, but has a lot of knowledge
Just to inform you...Fourcam has a business outside of this industry. He also writes tech articles for a number of mags..including 5.0/MMFF. He is very knowledgeable. He doesn't turn the wrenches himself and has been burned before. He has pretty much taken a personal stance to help prevent people like you from getting burned from companies like BBR. That whole thread is about BBR posting numbers and Fourcam challenging those numbers. He posted a lot of facts, mainly related to 2v/4v and showing how he doesn't think the #'s are possible that BBR posted. He offered to pay for everthing IF the numbers proved true. He just wanted objective proof disclosed.
He is quick to rip into someone if they say something goofy. I find it pretty entertaining though. I don't believe you have to actually tear into an 4.6L 3V to have all the knowledge in the world. There are some guys/gals that can look at spec #'s and be able to read and translate it.
He may be harsh, but has a lot of knowledge
All in all, he is just an internet tough guy.
#31
It looks like he is stating what he knows from his previous knowledge which is the 2v/4v to the 3v. Granted they are not the same, but the similarites are enought so that he can give ballpark figures.
#32
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Originally posted by Sonic Brew@November 21, 2005, 1:24 PM
It looks like he is stating what he knows from his previous knowledge which is the 2v/4v to the 3v. Granted they are not the same, but the similarites are enought so that he can give ballpark figures.
It looks like he is stating what he knows from his previous knowledge which is the 2v/4v to the 3v. Granted they are not the same, but the similarites are enought so that he can give ballpark figures.
On topic again...I am looking forward to cams for the 3V. Should really be a nice mod to accompany what I alread have done.
#33
Originally posted by max2000jp@November 21, 2005, 2:01 PM
Different heads, VVT, and a new ECU. He doesn't take into account that. Anyone can throw out ballpark figures. He is doing the exact same thing BBR is doing, not adding any proof to the equation.
On topic again...I am looking forward to cams for the 3V. Should really be a nice mod to accompany what I alread have done.
Different heads, VVT, and a new ECU. He doesn't take into account that. Anyone can throw out ballpark figures. He is doing the exact same thing BBR is doing, not adding any proof to the equation.
On topic again...I am looking forward to cams for the 3V. Should really be a nice mod to accompany what I alread have done.
My .02
#34
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Originally posted by stang9325@November 21, 2005, 2:43 PM
Forgive me if I can't remember exactly what fourcam said, but it went something like: how can a PP 3V head outflow a PP 4V head? If I recall it was also stated that the valves in the 4V are also bigger (and obviously have 1 more) than in the 3V. Seems like a pretty logical argument to me. He may not have the specific proof but that is what he is trying to get with all of this. If BBR would just step up to the plate they could easily put this to rest. Why? Because if those numbers are correct they would want to prove it to sell more of their product. Ducking this challenge, especially since it would be free to them minus their time(assuming their numbers are correct), tells me that their numbers aren't legit. Doesn't seem like any other logical reason for them to not do this.
My .02
Forgive me if I can't remember exactly what fourcam said, but it went something like: how can a PP 3V head outflow a PP 4V head? If I recall it was also stated that the valves in the 4V are also bigger (and obviously have 1 more) than in the 3V. Seems like a pretty logical argument to me. He may not have the specific proof but that is what he is trying to get with all of this. If BBR would just step up to the plate they could easily put this to rest. Why? Because if those numbers are correct they would want to prove it to sell more of their product. Ducking this challenge, especially since it would be free to them minus their time(assuming their numbers are correct), tells me that their numbers aren't legit. Doesn't seem like any other logical reason for them to not do this.
My .02
#35
I have zero experience with chopping heads off babies, but I could make a pretty good argument that it would be sorta bloody.
That example is probably a bit morbid, or at least odd, but the concept holds true.
That example is probably a bit morbid, or at least odd, but the concept holds true.
#36
Originally posted by AnotherMustangMan@November 21, 2005, 3:03 PM
I have zero experience with chopping heads off babies, but I could make a pretty good argument that it would be sorta bloody.
That example is probably a bit morbid, or at least odd, but the concept holds true.
I have zero experience with chopping heads off babies, but I could make a pretty good argument that it would be sorta bloody.
That example is probably a bit morbid, or at least odd, but the concept holds true.
#37
The ability to apply knowledge of something in order to ascertain an understanding of it--if not obtained by direct experience.
It was a response to this:
"He has ZERO(that I read about) experience with 4.6 3Vs,; his knowledge doesn't apply to us"
It was a response to this:
"He has ZERO(that I read about) experience with 4.6 3Vs,; his knowledge doesn't apply to us"
#38
Ok, makes more sense now. I wasn't sure what your comment was directed at. BTW, you are exactly right. I don't see how max2000jp doesn't see that. Like you said, even if it isn't the exact same thing, a connection can be made between the two and GENERAL assumptions can be made. Computer this and VCT that has nothing to do with the physics of how well a head can flow given X.
#39
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Originally posted by stang9325@November 21, 2005, 4:46 PM
Ok, makes more sense now. I wasn't sure what your comment was directed at. BTW, you are exactly right. I don't see how max2000jp doesn't see that. Like you said, even if it isn't the exact same thing, a connection can be made between the two and GENERAL assumptions can be made. Computer this and VCT that has nothing to do with the physics of how well a head can flow given X.
Ok, makes more sense now. I wasn't sure what your comment was directed at. BTW, you are exactly right. I don't see how max2000jp doesn't see that. Like you said, even if it isn't the exact same thing, a connection can be made between the two and GENERAL assumptions can be made. Computer this and VCT that has nothing to do with the physics of how well a head can flow given X.
#40
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 21, 2005, 2:57 PM
I have no problem with someone asking for answers, but go about it in a classy way. Heads are one part of an engine. He doesn't know how other variables will react in 3V engines. The problem I have is that FourCam acts like a douchebag and is no better than BBR. Patriot Performance stated in an email to me that they are working on 3V heads and Crane/Comp will have cams out shortly. Everyone just be patient and this will get sorted out.
I have no problem with someone asking for answers, but go about it in a classy way. Heads are one part of an engine. He doesn't know how other variables will react in 3V engines. The problem I have is that FourCam acts like a douchebag and is no better than BBR. Patriot Performance stated in an email to me that they are working on 3V heads and Crane/Comp will have cams out shortly. Everyone just be patient and this will get sorted out.