Tuning for cams?
11/21/05, 06:25 PM
#41
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Please explain what you think the VCT actually does. I'd love to hear your knowledge on this subject.
So, I want to understand exactly what your saying. Basic analogy...If you have a jug of water with a 2" outlet, lets say it will let all the water out in 2 minutes...and you have a jug with a 4" outlet, and it flows water out in 4 minutes....what would a jug with a 3" outlet flow? If you Is it possible for the 3" jug to flow more than the 4" jug. Fourcam is merely saying that the 3V can't flow more than the 4V so the 3V #'s that BBR posted are impossible. How he carries that message is irrelevant. The guy could talk circles around you about motors...and me too.
So, I want to understand exactly what your saying. Basic analogy...If you have a jug of water with a 2" outlet, lets say it will let all the water out in 2 minutes...and you have a jug with a 4" outlet, and it flows water out in 4 minutes....what would a jug with a 3" outlet flow? If you Is it possible for the 3" jug to flow more than the 4" jug. Fourcam is merely saying that the 3V can't flow more than the 4V so the 3V #'s that BBR posted are impossible. How he carries that message is irrelevant. The guy could talk circles around you about motors...and me too.
11/21/05, 06:38 PM
#42
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Originally posted by 169stang@November 21, 2005, 8:28 PM
Please explain what you think the VCT actually does. I'd love to hear your knowledge on this subject.
So, I want to understand exactly what your saying. Basic analogy...If you have a jug of water with a 2" outlet, lets say it will let all the water out in 2 minutes...and you have a jug with a 4" outlet, and it flows water out in 4 minutes....what would a jug with a 3" outlet flow? If you Is it possible for the 3" jug to flow more than the 4" jug. Fourcam is merely saying that the 3V can't flow more than the 4V so the 3V #'s that BBR posted are impossible. How he carries that message is irrelevant. The guy could talk circles around you about motors...and me too.
Please explain what you think the VCT actually does. I'd love to hear your knowledge on this subject.
So, I want to understand exactly what your saying. Basic analogy...If you have a jug of water with a 2" outlet, lets say it will let all the water out in 2 minutes...and you have a jug with a 4" outlet, and it flows water out in 4 minutes....what would a jug with a 3" outlet flow? If you Is it possible for the 3" jug to flow more than the 4" jug. Fourcam is merely saying that the 3V can't flow more than the 4V so the 3V #'s that BBR posted are impossible. How he carries that message is irrelevant. The guy could talk circles around you about motors...and me too.
The flow numbers are pretty obvious to anyone reading the thread and has a spec of knowledge about internal combustion engines. I am just tired of him whining about the HP numbers. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT A N/A HEAD AND CAMED 3V IS CAPABLE OF. FourCam is just talking out of his hiney. I have talked to tuners whom have 10X's more experience with 3Vs and they said the engine responded well to their ported heads and billet cams. This was for a forced induction engine, so it truely wasn't an apples to apples comparison. I will say this again, guys like him call BS and have been proven wrong again. I will again point you guys to posts about a year ago about Supercharging 3V's and the power limits. Pretty laughable information, aint it?
In conclusion, BBR does need to prove their numbers. FourCam330 needs to shut his big mouth and get a life.
11/21/05, 06:46 PM
#43
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Not prove their numbers, come on. You make a claim that will involve your customers money then you owe it to them to prove the quality of your product. No matter your opinion of FourCam, without a unbias dyno then the discussion is moot.
11/21/05, 06:54 PM
#44
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Originally posted by Sonic Brew@November 21, 2005, 8:49 PM
Not prove their numbers, come on. You make a claim that will involve your customers money then you owe it to them to prove the quality of your product. No matter your opinion of FourCam, without a unbias dyno then the discussion is moot.
Not prove their numbers, come on. You make a claim that will involve your customers money then you owe it to them to prove the quality of your product. No matter your opinion of FourCam, without a unbias dyno then the discussion is moot.
11/21/05, 07:47 PM
#45
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Bro, I hope your education on the VCT is not learned from howstuffworks.com. That is a great website, but how can you link a website on VCT that isn't specific to the 05's. That's your mentality with Fourcams's statements. Besides, have you seen the VCT in the 05's. It's merely a clock spring and has nothing to control it to make it precise. When cams become available, I'll be locking the VCT out.
As far as that thread, I was no ones fan of anything. I was asked to be an objective middle person in the whole thing. I was forwarded all of the email communications to post on the corral. When BBR stopped communications and started avoiding the whole ordeal, I began to have doubts about their claims. You don't know what your talking about and seem to be getting emotional about this. No one has said Fourcam is the most tactful, but he is very knowledgeable. He is making statements based on previous experience and knowledge. Your letting you opinion of him overall cast a haze over the facts he's posted. He's just trying to keep the majority that don't know or won't investigate from being burned from another company making false claims on a product. Can I say that the #'s BBR has posted are false-no. I haven't seen the testing. I don't have the knowledge on head flow #'s to make a judgement like that. I know some of the guys at BBR. They are local to me. What bother's me is that those #'s were on race gas and they denied using race gas. Why? I know for fact that they used race gas. Be realistic and not so closed minded. You can miss out on some good knowledge if you overlook whether you like someones personality or not.
As far as that thread, I was no ones fan of anything. I was asked to be an objective middle person in the whole thing. I was forwarded all of the email communications to post on the corral. When BBR stopped communications and started avoiding the whole ordeal, I began to have doubts about their claims. You don't know what your talking about and seem to be getting emotional about this. No one has said Fourcam is the most tactful, but he is very knowledgeable. He is making statements based on previous experience and knowledge. Your letting you opinion of him overall cast a haze over the facts he's posted. He's just trying to keep the majority that don't know or won't investigate from being burned from another company making false claims on a product. Can I say that the #'s BBR has posted are false-no. I haven't seen the testing. I don't have the knowledge on head flow #'s to make a judgement like that. I know some of the guys at BBR. They are local to me. What bother's me is that those #'s were on race gas and they denied using race gas. Why? I know for fact that they used race gas. Be realistic and not so closed minded. You can miss out on some good knowledge if you overlook whether you like someones personality or not.
11/21/05, 08:08 PM
#46
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Originally posted by 169stang@November 21, 2005, 9:50 PM
Bro, I hope your education on the VCT is not learned from howstuffworks.com. That is a great website, but how can you link a website on VCT that isn't specific to the 05's. That's your mentality with Fourcams's statements. Besides, have you seen the VCT in the 05's. It's merely a clock spring and has nothing to control it to make it precise. When cams become available, I'll be locking the VCT out.
As far as that thread, I was no ones fan of anything. I was asked to be an objective middle person in the whole thing. I was forwarded all of the email communications to post on the corral. When BBR stopped communications and started avoiding the whole ordeal, I began to have doubts about their claims. You don't know what your talking about and seem to be getting emotional about this. No one has said Fourcam is the most tactful, but he is very knowledgeable. He is making statements based on previous experience and knowledge. Your letting you opinion of him overall cast a haze over the facts he's posted. He's just trying to keep the majority that don't know or won't investigate from being burned from another company making false claims on a product. Can I say that the #'s BBR has posted are false-no. I haven't seen the testing. I don't have the knowledge on head flow #'s to make a judgement like that. I know some of the guys at BBR. They are local to me. What bother's me is that those #'s were on race gas and they denied using race gas. Why? I know for fact that they used race gas. Be realistic and not so closed minded. You can miss out on some good knowledge if you overlook whether you like someones personality or not.
Bro, I hope your education on the VCT is not learned from howstuffworks.com. That is a great website, but how can you link a website on VCT that isn't specific to the 05's. That's your mentality with Fourcams's statements. Besides, have you seen the VCT in the 05's. It's merely a clock spring and has nothing to control it to make it precise. When cams become available, I'll be locking the VCT out.
As far as that thread, I was no ones fan of anything. I was asked to be an objective middle person in the whole thing. I was forwarded all of the email communications to post on the corral. When BBR stopped communications and started avoiding the whole ordeal, I began to have doubts about their claims. You don't know what your talking about and seem to be getting emotional about this. No one has said Fourcam is the most tactful, but he is very knowledgeable. He is making statements based on previous experience and knowledge. Your letting you opinion of him overall cast a haze over the facts he's posted. He's just trying to keep the majority that don't know or won't investigate from being burned from another company making false claims on a product. Can I say that the #'s BBR has posted are false-no. I haven't seen the testing. I don't have the knowledge on head flow #'s to make a judgement like that. I know some of the guys at BBR. They are local to me. What bother's me is that those #'s were on race gas and they denied using race gas. Why? I know for fact that they used race gas. Be realistic and not so closed minded. You can miss out on some good knowledge if you overlook whether you like someones personality or not.
Again, FourCam could be knowlegable(which I doubt given his approach). How many 3V motors has he pulled apart? How many modified engines has he tuned? etc. etc. Opinions are like hineyholes....
I am very realistic and not so close minded to people whom conduct themselves with maturity. FourCam in that thread has shown about as much credibility as OJ Simpson. Again, you and I are both arguing about unknowns. We don't know how this engine will respond to P&P'ed heads and aftermarket cams. I have stated before that us 3V owners need to be patient. I have emailed a few aftermarket head/cam companies and gotten promising responses. Answers should be hear very soon from well known aftermarket companies. Until then, don't let your money burn a hole in your pocket.
11/21/05, 08:25 PM
#47
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I ask you this...How many 3V's have you torn apart? Me 1. I still won't claim to have more knowledge than Fourcam. His arrogance shows up when people make dumb or uneducated responses. He'll debate fact for fact and i've seen him admit to be mistaken or change a standpoint due to misunderstanding the foundational facts. I'm going to make my ET goal with or without cams. I'm not going to be the first on the cams wagon. I'll wait until they have the specs 100%, if I decide to go with cams.
Listen, we've gotten this thread way off topic. We can just agree to disagree on Fourcams knowledge. I'd rather attempt to learn something from those that know about tuning with cams!
Listen, we've gotten this thread way off topic. We can just agree to disagree on Fourcams knowledge. I'd rather attempt to learn something from those that know about tuning with cams!
11/21/05, 08:30 PM
#48
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So because the guy is a jerk, he's an incompetent. If that's your logic there would be a lot of billionaires that were broke. Look, an engine is an engine is an engine. No, they aren't all exactly alike and yes I know they will respond a little different but there are certain concepts that are pretty much universal. If some guy is telling you he is gaining X amount of hp but his airflows don't match it, seems pretty easy. Also who cares how "sensitive the computer and VVT" are, sensetivity doesn't make horsepower. Give the guy some credit, he's obviously been around an engine or two, so he has some ground to stand on here. Our engines are new, not alien.
11/21/05, 08:40 PM
#49
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Originally posted by luckyeod28@November 21, 2005, 10:33 PM
So because the guy is a jerk, he's an incompetent. If that's your logic there would be a lot of billionaires that were broke. Look, an engine is an engine is an engine. No, they aren't all exactly alike and yes I know they will respond a little different but there are certain concepts that are pretty much universal. If some guy is telling you he is gaining X amount of hp but his airflows don't match it, seems pretty easy. Also who cares how "sensitive the computer and VVT" are, sensetivity doesn't make horsepower. Give the guy some credit, he's obviously been around an engine or two, so he has some ground to stand on here. Our engines are new, not alien.
So because the guy is a jerk, he's an incompetent. If that's your logic there would be a lot of billionaires that were broke. Look, an engine is an engine is an engine. No, they aren't all exactly alike and yes I know they will respond a little different but there are certain concepts that are pretty much universal. If some guy is telling you he is gaining X amount of hp but his airflows don't match it, seems pretty easy. Also who cares how "sensitive the computer and VVT" are, sensetivity doesn't make horsepower. Give the guy some credit, he's obviously been around an engine or two, so he has some ground to stand on here. Our engines are new, not alien.
I've been around engines, from road racing motors to offshore racing motors. I don't consider myself to be an expert. Engines are engines; but all engines aren't the same and don't respond equally to mods. Any motorhead would look at you funny if you compared a Ferrari F1 engine to a 4.6L V8.
I think the guy is a jerk and by what he has posted I don't think he is competent in regards to 3V engines. Sorry for the incoherency in my previous post.
11/21/05, 08:49 PM
#50
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Originally posted by Cleveland@November 19, 2005, 2:33 AM
Dont go thinking you can get 380 to the tires just yet with a simple cam swap and P&P work. The last thing any of us should do is start overadvertising with the risk of looking really stupid.
Come spring time a lot will be available, lets try to keep it cool till someone gets to a dyno that isnt biased.
By the by, Blow-By-Racing is bad, have I said that before? :P
-Dan
Dont go thinking you can get 380 to the tires just yet with a simple cam swap and P&P work. The last thing any of us should do is start overadvertising with the risk of looking really stupid.
Come spring time a lot will be available, lets try to keep it cool till someone gets to a dyno that isnt biased.
By the by, Blow-By-Racing is bad, have I said that before? :P
-Dan
"I think aggressive cams and P&P work will give me 380rwhp"
there, done.
i think the fact that im workin off a platform of 322rwhp makes it a lil easier to reach that goal tho
im so excited bout some good internal stuff comin out, i haven't modded my stang for 6months of more now and im gettin bored of not adding anything new! haha
11/21/05, 08:52 PM
#51
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The VCT system consists of an electric hydraulic positioning control solenoid, a camshaft position sensor, and a trigger wheel. The CMP trigger wheel has a number of equally spaced teeth equal to the number (n) of cylinders on a bank plus one extra tooth (n+1). The extra tooth placed between the equally spaced teeth represents the CMP signal for that bank. A crankshaft position sensor provides the PCM with crankshaft positioning information in 10 degree increments.
The PCM receives input signals from the IAT sensor, engine coolant temperature sensor, engine oil temperature sensor, CMP, throttle position sensor, mass air flow sensor, and CKP to determine the operating conditions. At idle and low engine speeds with closed throttle, the PCM controls the camshaft position based on ECT, EOT, IAT, and MAF. During part and wide open throttle, the camshaft position is determined by engine RPM, load and throttle position.
The VCT system does not operate until the engine is at normal operating temperature.
The VCT system is enabled by the PCM when the correct conditions are met.
The CKP signal is used as a reference for CMP positioning.
The VCT solenoid valve is an integral part of the VCT system. The solenoid valve controls the flow of engine oil in the VCT actuator assembly( on top of each valve cover). As the PCM controls the duty cycle of the solenoid valve, oil pressure/flow advances or retards the cam timing. Duty cycles near 0% or 100% represent the movement of the camshaft. Retaining a fixed camshaft position is accomplished by dithering (oscillating) the solenoid valve duty cycle.
The PCM calculates and determines the desired camshaft position. It continually updates the VCT solenoid duty cycle until the desired position is achieved. A difference between the desired and actual camshaft position represents a position error in the PCM VCT control loop. The PCM disables the VCT and places the camshaft in a default position if a concern is detected. A related DTC is also set when the concern is detected.
When the VCT solenoid is energized, engine oil is allowed to flow to the VCT actuator assembly which advances or retards the camshaft timing. One half of the VCT actuator is coupled to the camshaft and the other half is connected to the timing chain. Oil chambers between the 2 halves couple the camshaft to the timing chain. When the flow of oil is shifted from one side of the chamber to the other, the differential change in oil pressure forces the camshaft to rotate in either an advance or retard position depending on the oil flow.
Any questions??
The PCM receives input signals from the IAT sensor, engine coolant temperature sensor, engine oil temperature sensor, CMP, throttle position sensor, mass air flow sensor, and CKP to determine the operating conditions. At idle and low engine speeds with closed throttle, the PCM controls the camshaft position based on ECT, EOT, IAT, and MAF. During part and wide open throttle, the camshaft position is determined by engine RPM, load and throttle position.
The VCT system does not operate until the engine is at normal operating temperature.
The VCT system is enabled by the PCM when the correct conditions are met.
The CKP signal is used as a reference for CMP positioning.
The VCT solenoid valve is an integral part of the VCT system. The solenoid valve controls the flow of engine oil in the VCT actuator assembly( on top of each valve cover). As the PCM controls the duty cycle of the solenoid valve, oil pressure/flow advances or retards the cam timing. Duty cycles near 0% or 100% represent the movement of the camshaft. Retaining a fixed camshaft position is accomplished by dithering (oscillating) the solenoid valve duty cycle.
The PCM calculates and determines the desired camshaft position. It continually updates the VCT solenoid duty cycle until the desired position is achieved. A difference between the desired and actual camshaft position represents a position error in the PCM VCT control loop. The PCM disables the VCT and places the camshaft in a default position if a concern is detected. A related DTC is also set when the concern is detected.
When the VCT solenoid is energized, engine oil is allowed to flow to the VCT actuator assembly which advances or retards the camshaft timing. One half of the VCT actuator is coupled to the camshaft and the other half is connected to the timing chain. Oil chambers between the 2 halves couple the camshaft to the timing chain. When the flow of oil is shifted from one side of the chamber to the other, the differential change in oil pressure forces the camshaft to rotate in either an advance or retard position depending on the oil flow.
Any questions??
11/21/05, 08:55 PM
#52
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I don't think anybody ever confused the difference between a 3v and 2v/4v with the comparison of an F1 engine and anything normal. Our heads are comparable to both other engines and I know you know that having been around engines for so long. I think your playing the devil's advocate cause you like a good debate, I'm not knocking it, HECK it keeps life interesting.
11/21/05, 09:17 PM
#54
Originally posted by luckyeod28@November 21, 2005, 7:59 PM
HOLY CRAP, DOUG. Now thats in depth. I don't even know if I'm smart enough to read that.
HOLY CRAP, DOUG. Now thats in depth. I don't even know if I'm smart enough to read that.
E-I-E-I-O... :scratch:
11/21/05, 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 19, 2005, 12:09 PM
I don't work for a tuner company, just a regular Mustang owner like everyone else. I do beleive Doug's estimate to be in the ballpark. Most bolt-on GTs like mine dyno near 300rwhp. My car is on a canned tune, remember that. If the cam gives, 30-35 rwhp. That puts me at 335rwhp. I am guessing what a port and polish gives, but I saw a dyno post from Livernois Motorsports that stated 50rwhp. I am not sure how accurate that is though. An extra 40+ rwhp could be possible with a port and polish, but no one knows. I guess we will have to wait.
As for that thread, I read it and can't post on the corral for some reason yet. That FourCam330 guy is just as bad as Blow By. The immaturity in that thread is very high.
I don't work for a tuner company, just a regular Mustang owner like everyone else. I do beleive Doug's estimate to be in the ballpark. Most bolt-on GTs like mine dyno near 300rwhp. My car is on a canned tune, remember that. If the cam gives, 30-35 rwhp. That puts me at 335rwhp. I am guessing what a port and polish gives, but I saw a dyno post from Livernois Motorsports that stated 50rwhp. I am not sure how accurate that is though. An extra 40+ rwhp could be possible with a port and polish, but no one knows. I guess we will have to wait.
As for that thread, I read it and can't post on the corral for some reason yet. That FourCam330 guy is just as bad as Blow By. The immaturity in that thread is very high.
11/21/05, 11:04 PM
#57
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Originally posted by 169stang@November 21, 2005, 10:28 PM
I ask you this...How many 3V's have you torn apart? Me 1. I still won't claim to have more knowledge than Fourcam. His arrogance shows up when people make dumb or uneducated responses. He'll debate fact for fact and i've seen him admit to be mistaken or change a standpoint due to misunderstanding the foundational facts. I'm going to make my ET goal with or without cams. I'm not going to be the first on the cams wagon. I'll wait until they have the specs 100%, if I decide to go with cams.
Listen, we've gotten this thread way off topic. We can just agree to disagree on Fourcams knowledge. I'd rather attempt to learn something from those that know about tuning with cams!
I ask you this...How many 3V's have you torn apart? Me 1. I still won't claim to have more knowledge than Fourcam. His arrogance shows up when people make dumb or uneducated responses. He'll debate fact for fact and i've seen him admit to be mistaken or change a standpoint due to misunderstanding the foundational facts. I'm going to make my ET goal with or without cams. I'm not going to be the first on the cams wagon. I'll wait until they have the specs 100%, if I decide to go with cams.
Listen, we've gotten this thread way off topic. We can just agree to disagree on Fourcams knowledge. I'd rather attempt to learn something from those that know about tuning with cams!
11/21/05, 11:21 PM
#58
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One thing is for certain, BBR wont make any money on Camshaft sales with all the internet trouble and more reputable manufactures and tuners standing behind other soon-to-be-released products.
-Dan
-Dan
11/22/05, 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by Cleveland@November 22, 2005, 1:24 AM
One thing is for certain, BBR wont make any money on Camshaft sales with all the internet trouble and more reputable manufactures and tuners standing behind other soon-to-be-released products.
-Dan
One thing is for certain, BBR wont make any money on Camshaft sales with all the internet trouble and more reputable manufactures and tuners standing behind other soon-to-be-released products.
-Dan
11/22/05, 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by max2000jp@November 22, 2005, 2:07 AM
I haven't torn apart any 3V's and hope I don't have to. If I do, that means I blew my engine. I am awaiting information on cams as well. My point throughout this thread is basically don't discredit this mod. I feel that an aggressive cam and a good ported set of 3V heads will produce some great results. I personally don't believe BBR's numbers, but do believe that numbers in the range can be achieved down the road. As for cams, I will probably buy them when people like Doug or Brenspeed test them. I trust their knowledge and they know how to run a business. Sorry, I have really gotten off topic. I really don't like one people run their mouths without any credible evidence. BBR and FourCam have one thing in common, they both are throwing numbers in the air.
I haven't torn apart any 3V's and hope I don't have to. If I do, that means I blew my engine. I am awaiting information on cams as well. My point throughout this thread is basically don't discredit this mod. I feel that an aggressive cam and a good ported set of 3V heads will produce some great results. I personally don't believe BBR's numbers, but do believe that numbers in the range can be achieved down the road. As for cams, I will probably buy them when people like Doug or Brenspeed test them. I trust their knowledge and they know how to run a business. Sorry, I have really gotten off topic. I really don't like one people run their mouths without any credible evidence. BBR and FourCam have one thing in common, they both are throwing numbers in the air.
If you would be so kind as to direct me to the parts where I was "throwing numbers in the air." I would greatly appreciate it. Also, it appears to me that you've wheeled yourself to first place in the S.O. 100M dash; can you feel the irony internet tough guy? LMAO
Call me what you want, I simply don't beat around the bush. I say what I mean and I don't let tact get in the way. On top of that, and most pertinent to this discussion, I get paid to write Modular tech.
I don't feel out of line stating that I've likely forgotten more about these motors than you'll ever care to learn. I am by no means an expert on my own accord, however I'm in constant contact with THE experts in the industry (Al Papitto, the Tymenskys, John Mihovetz) regarding what works and what doesn't. These guys are the trailblazers, the record holders, everyone else follows in their footsteps.
384/374rw quite simply isn't going to happen from a stock intake, stock shortblock 4.6 3V. The limiting factor for power production in ANY small bore OHC multi valve engine is valve seat/valve size PERIOD. Honestly I'm not sure what else you need to see in that post to realize that BBR was lying through their teeth.
You also have to remember that this motor used a solid valvetrain (with non solid cam grinds which will beat their valvetrain to death in a few hundred miles or less if it hasn't happened already) which is not at all feasible for a street car. To date Second Street Speed, Jesel, and a host of other companies have attempted solid VTs to no avail. No one can keep the adj. nut from backing off, even with locking nuts, etc. Besides, no one grinds solid profile cams for Modulars so there's really no point.
As for BBRs bogus head flow data, two reputable head porters (Fox Lake, Kris Starnes) are reporting ported 05 heads flowing 250-260cfm @ .500" lift or roughly 25-30 cfm less than what BBR claims with theirs (SS valves used in both).
IMO, I can see a full bolt on (not including the redneck short or no belt mod) stock shortblock 4.6 3v with ported heads, billet cams, and stock intake putting down around 355-360rw tops with rw torque somewhere in the 340s. With a shortened stock intake (plastic welder) you may gain 10-15rw more.
That speculation won't have to last long as Al is currently building a N/A 3V with ported heads, billet Crower cams, a shortened stock intake, his own dual spring kit with Ti locks/retainers, SS valves, and a forged shortblock. If you're staying N/A with a 3v this is the build you should be watching for; Al can milk 500HP from a 1.5L 2V OHC 4 banger, and has had the highest HP/TQ N/A 5.4 for the last 5 years. Not including his record breaking Factory Stock 4.6s, or his new Pure Street 4Vs, etc. etc.
All this is contained in the Corral post along with a pooload of other facts regarding Modular motors. What have you brought to the table besides a lame hiney attitude, zero facts, and a knowledge of these motors my bullmastiff would put to shame? :scratch: