Saleen Superchargers vs. Whipple vs. Vortech
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I cut and pasted this from the posts above - none of this is my info - I just took it from the other posts. They said all the numbers were at 10 psi.
I agree based on my past experiences a centrifugal will make more power because it will move more air. However all this talk about 3.2 liter twin screws really evens the playing field. After reading all the stuff about TS versus Turbo versus Centri - I called Hellion Yesterday. I guess they were closed. I called Turbonetics and they were closed too. I was bound and determined to talk to someone so I just kept calling. Paxton - nope, Vortech - closed, procharger - not sure I was trapped in phone mail jail and never got a human. Saleen, JDM, Whipple - nope, nope and nada. No question Granatelli has print ads and banners all over the place but after reading the way he posts I was leery. I called them just to confirm they were closed too and they answered the phone. I asked from J.R. because he claims he will take anyones call. Here is the reader’s digest version, GMS is working on a positive displacement kit for the S197. They call it a TVS style unit. J.R. said the kit is intended to make between 380 and 480 rear wheel hp between 7 and 14 lbs. He said the blower will support upwards of 750 at the crank and directed me to his website for a video display of the blower was capable of.
After speaking with him for about 45 minutes, I had to pop the question: "you seem so nice on the phone but come off a bit tough on the forums - why is that"??. He really had no explanation other then he felt terribly misunderstood.
I am here to tell you all, the guy I spoke to on Monday is the same knowledgeable guy I spoke to in 1990 at one of the first Superford Mustang shoot outs when he worked at Paxton. J.R. said a Paxton was like a belt drive turbo. That is the reason why they had similar power curves. Torque is tied to boost. The sooner your engine gets boost the better the torque curve.
Anyway, I ordered the turbo kit because he had them in stock and said he would guide me every step of the way. Living in Tempe AZ, I am only 400 miles away. I am going to have this kit installed locally but will probably take it to GMS to have it tuned. My goal is 525 through my auto trans. I could talk about mileage but we all know that's not a priority
So after all the talk and speculation, I chose a Turbo and furthermore I chose a Granatelli turbo kit. True he was the only one open on Monday but after all the talk about what an *** this guy was I had to find out for myself. This guy is like 40 years old and has over 20 years experience in Mustangs. If you talk to him you will be sold. I have a Saleen on the outside but it will be all Granatelli on the inside.
I will keep you all posted. Lets hope they don’t let me down
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Trick question as asked
Centrifugal - claims to take less hp to drive it at xyz pressure and flow
Turbo - takes the least amount of power to make the same xyz pressure and flow
Pos displacement - typically takes the most
The reason why it is a trick question is because it depends on what you expect from it. Naturally since a Whipple or Saleen makes more boost then a centrifugal at (let's say) 3500 rpm it will take more power to drive it at that RPM. However the output to the ground of the Whipple style will be greater than the vortech style at 3500. So who care which takes more power to run - I only care about what I get
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That’s why the car comes with traction control…right? I agree if you pay attention things are fine
I'm the first to say that if I was hitting the track regularly I'd go with the Procharger. For street driving and an occasional trip to the track I'll take the Whipple any day over the centrifugal. I should know, I've had both on my car and that's my opinion. The bottom end power is freakin' huge.
2005sonicBOOST, You're missing the point. Yes, if I'm running the **** out of the car the Procharger is one bad mother. While running the car hard it was the ticket for sure, but my Procharger produced 1 psi at 2500 rpm's. The Whipple produces 5 lbs at 1500 rpm's and NO, I'm not revving the **** out of the engine through every gear while heading down the road. The Whipple just added another dimension and that's not debatable, it's an obvious, radically noticeable added dimension that the Procharger lacked while I was driving normal or with some mid level aggression. The Procharger HAD TO BE SCREAMING for that kind of pull. You guys just would have to feel the difference for yourselves, then form your own opinion. I have mine and the experience to back it up, not to mention the dyno sheets.
Well if you look at the boost curve you will see that peek boost and peek rpm are not the same. This is just 1 more reason why the turbo and TS design rule on our type motors. If you were to compare a centrifugal to a TS were the peak boost was 20 psi the centrifugal would most likely eat the TS because the TS can’t make that kind of boost very efficiently.
His hands on experience, facts, and overall opinions about both systems has been extremely helpful in me deciding to pull the trigger on a twin screw sure, I have a while to go before I seal the deal- but unless I get an unreal deal on a Procharger D1, or Novi 2200 I will be going with a Whipple, or possibly a KB 2.6H.
I agree, Anthony has made many compelling arguments. A Novi2200 is a junior supercharger. If you go centrifugal – go Novi 2000. I still think when you have the money saved up look at the turbo before you make the final design or as you say pull the trigger (bang)
What? The Whipple type will 60 ft better because it has better power and torque. Traction should not be a factor – it should be assumed the traction will be sufficient. The stock tire on a stock rim will hook a 400-plus hp car if you just drop the tire pressure to 27psi.
I'll say this too. I highly recommend Procharger for their customer service and the same goes for Whipple. I had Art Whipple on the phone twice for over 1/2 hour when I had a defective part in my kit. We shot the breeze mostly, but this is the old guy that invented the twin screw. He even called me back to make sure everything went smoothly.
Great to hear. I wish I could say the same, I spoke to Art Whipple a few times in the past and he seems like he wants to get you off the phone – although he did take my call. Granatelli – J.R. himself, Morgan and or Chris all seem to go above and beyond. Others have said the same here as well.
I get the point anthony05gt... I like the fact that the procharger only produces 1psi at 2500, I hope my Paxton will do the same... The Whipple makes more boost at lower rpm's but I don't want 5lbs of boost at 1500rpms for a daily driver... That’s just me though
Hey don’t sell yourself short – get the blower you want - DON’T SETTLE because you “think†it fits you. Make sure. If you really want a turbo then get the turbo. I will PM you and keep you posted as to my turbo experiences – I think Granatelli is going to be a great choice for me.
It's all about what you like. I agree with that. I was referring to your comment about WOT. I'm doing like 50mph in 5th gear and want to accelerate to 65 mph quickly. I don't downshift at all, I'm at WOT and the engine never revs past 2300 rpm's. It's so much more impressive with the twin screw in this scenario. Same goes for taking off in 1st gear, give a little throttle and WOW, it just pulls like mad without revs, yet it still pulls hard at revs. What's not to like?
Bingo
I agree, a turbo will makes much more torque than any belt driven blower...period. I've never driven a vehicle that had a turbo and the same off idle torque as a twin screw though. I know about properly sized turbos making great low end power and torque. They are absolutely wicked. Some of the fastest modular Ford Mustangs in the world are definitely turbos and just watch the way they launch. It's less aggressive and they have less wheel spin. Once they are moving a bit that sucker spools up and it's all over. Twin turbos are scary though. They can lay some absolutely deadly bottom end power.
One thing is for sure in my experience...When I'm cruising with a turbocharged engine with the tach down low, the engine has to begin to push air through the exhaust before the turbo even does a thing for power. That always takes some time no matter what set up you have. The exhaust spins it and you need exhaust pressure before it will spool up at all. Properly sized turbos speed that process up greatly, but it can't be instant like a twin screw.
If I had an 8 second stang with a modular engine, I'm sure it would be turbocharged. Turbos are the king of F/I. There's no debating that. Of course, John Force might.
John Force would have a turbo if it was legal in top fuel… TRUE THAT!
I have an auto trans so when I step on it, it will downshift and have optimum rpm range. So the turbo will always have a ton of exh flow and therefore pressure. I would add that my 07 GT500 did not make peak boost at 2300 like you say in 5th gear like passing on the freeway – it seems like you are exaggerating just a little to make a point – (friend comments – not a fight)
That is a myth; once installed it is as maintenance free as can be.
No, it just requires more to install than a Procharger because it shares oil with the engine which means you have to tap the oil pan and plumb the oil to the blower head unit, but that's just install stuff. All blowers are easy to maintain. Centris require oil changes much more frequently, but that's it.
Ya that was my thinking as well – by the way the Granatelli Turbo I purchased came with the ball bearing turbo as a standard option
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From Tom the other guy that has the GMS turbo
I have several Granatelli components on my '89 Mustang and Quality has always been excellent, too. As far as this kit, several of the components (turbo, waste gate, intercooler, injectors) are made by other companies (Turbonetics, Tial, Spearco, and Ford respectively) and they don't try to pass them off as their own. So I don't know how much truth there is behind all that. Their customer service has been great (I must have been on the phone a dozen times asking questions and they were willing to help before I even spent a dime).
more from Tom
ON THE STREET:
The car flies! I'm uploading videos now, but they don't do the real ride justice!
The WOT A/F ratio - 11.5:1.
Average gas mileage = 26.4 (30.0+ at 60 with cruise control on)
It was posts like this that helped me decide - Please J.R. himself went to FL to help this guy. It seems like even when the manufatures gave advise and offered to help Tom wanted to experiment a little and we all learned from that too but that is hardly a blemish on Granatelli to me
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Oh I'm sorry...I thought you were still considering. the Novi200 is a revamped S trim Vortech - I have experience with that - it is a great blower up to 625hp. I am sure you will love it. Is your intercooled
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From: Temecula,CA
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Jafo, your question about the turbo's #'s down low on the previous page can be answered like this. That freakin' turbo ain't laying down 5 psi at 1500 rpm's like the twin screw and over 400 lbs torque at 2000 rpm's now is it? Huh? I would have posted #'s in my comparison at the 1500rpm range, but I don't have them on the Procharger dyno sheet. And your question about why a centrifugal would require more frequent oil changes is pretty obvious. It spins so fast it's essential to change the oil frequently. Procharger has their blowers on a 5k schedule and Whipple on a 100k schedule. I never saw so many quotes layed out in one post.
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From: Medina county, OH
Jafo, for a newbie here you're not gonna make alot of friends spewing out some of the crap you're spewing. Like the Paxton 2200 being a revamped S-trim Vortech- you're way off on that. The 2200 is a much larger blower than my S-trim, both physically and capacity. It will support close to 1000 hp depending on the application- the S-trim will top out around 700. I know, I went with the Vortech kit and honestly wish I woulda went with the Paxton kit because my local tuner uses both and the Paxton is a noticeably better blower.
Also regarding the GMS kit, do your own additional research- I don't need to point it out to you. Keep in mind Tom (in the other post) still does not have his car running right after weeks now, and the last dyno run was pretty disppointing. I've stopped following the thread daily but the last thing I knew is he was beginning to buy additional parts (more additional parts) in order to trouble shoot it and make the kit complete. If you want to compare his statements that the "car flies on the street", then you need to take back your statements about "the numbers don't lie" elsewhere in your posts.
Anyway......
Also regarding the GMS kit, do your own additional research- I don't need to point it out to you. Keep in mind Tom (in the other post) still does not have his car running right after weeks now, and the last dyno run was pretty disppointing. I've stopped following the thread daily but the last thing I knew is he was beginning to buy additional parts (more additional parts) in order to trouble shoot it and make the kit complete. If you want to compare his statements that the "car flies on the street", then you need to take back your statements about "the numbers don't lie" elsewhere in your posts.
Anyway......
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From Tom the other guy that has the GMS turbo
I have several Granatelli components on my '89 Mustang and Quality has always been excellent, too. As far as this kit, several of the components (turbo, waste gate, intercooler, injectors) are made by other companies (Turbonetics, Tial, Spearco, and Ford respectively) and they don't try to pass them off as their own. So I don't know how much truth there is behind all that. Their customer service has been great (I must have been on the phone a dozen times asking questions and they were willing to help before I even spent a dime).
more from Tom
ON THE STREET:
The car flies! I'm uploading videos now, but they don't do the real ride justice!
The WOT A/F ratio - 11.5:1.
Average gas mileage = 26.4 (30.0+ at 60 with cruise control on)
It was posts like this that helped me decide - Please J.R. himself went to FL to help this guy. It seems like even when the manufactures gave advise and offered to help Tom wanted to experiment a little and we all learned from that too but that is hardly a blemish on Granatelli to me
I am trying to find your order in the system - we shipped 3 turbo kits this week to the state of AZ and two in Phoenix/Tempe area - Maybe I can put you in touch with the other guy as well. I do want you and everyone that purchases Granatelli to be happy. As for Tom, he was always happy with the way the car felt but I agree his number were down from the norm. Tom's car was and is the exception not the rule.
The thing about boost at 1500 - He is right we don't make 5psi at 1500. However look at the Saleen blower vs GMS turbo numbers (saleen at 7.5psi and GMS at 6) at 1500 the saleen has 11hp and 37ft/lbs more but by 2400 they are neck and neck and from 2500 on the turbo just keeps chuggin' baby. I don't want to fight about what or who is the best anymore, especially since GMS is launching a new twin rotor design supercharger that we hope to have four lobes on each rotor as opposed to the standard 3 found in most others. Let me say this - Just run what you think looks best and feels best to you. Setting the centrifugal aside for the moment, nobody passes a car at 1500. most short acceleration spurts as from 2000 to 3500 or even 4500. The turbo will eat them all in that area but who cares about 10 or 15 hp anyway. Unless you are racing and need every once - they will all make you happy. If you want to race and want to win - run a turbo up to 800 hp and after that stick with a centrifugal. The centrifugal will package way better when you start shooting for 1000hp. Or twin turbos of course would be nice too. I can say what our Twin rotor package will do because so far all I have done is run it at 5psi. it made like 330/330
As for all the talk about Novi blowers - JAFO he is right and you are wrong. You had your fact correct you just had the wrong blower - you are referring to the Novi1500. the Novi1500 is like an S-trim and the Novi2200 is more like a J-T trim. The 2200 will support 1000 but it will be so far out of it efficiency range you won't be happy. The Novi 2000 will support 1700cfm all day which is like 1062 hp. When we owned Paxton we had 6 or 7 car and truck that all made the magic 1000hp with the Novi2000 but that was just about the limit. - not sure if anyone want that info or not but I am DEAD ON with my numbers for the Novi2000 - take that to the bank and the Novi1500.
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And your question about why a centrifugal would require more frequent oil changes is pretty obvious. It spins so fast it's essential to change the oil frequently. Procharger has their blowers on a 5k schedule and Whipple on a 100k schedule. I never saw so many quotes layed out in one post.
As for quotes - I am new and excited to be here
I just wanted to address each and every comment.
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Jafo, for a newbie here you're not gonna make a lot of friends spewing out some of the crap you're spewing. Like the Paxton 2200 being a revamped S-trim Vortech- you're way off on that. The 2200 is a much larger blower than my S-trim, both physically and capacity. It will support close to 1000 hp depending on the application- the S-trim will top out around 700. I know, I went with the Vortech kit and honestly wish I would a went with the Paxton kit because my local tuner uses both and the Paxton is a noticeably better blower.
Also regarding the GMS kit, do your own additional research- I don't need to point it out to you. Keep in mind Tom (in the other post) still does not have his car running right after weeks now, and the last dyno run was pretty disappointing. I've stopped following the thread daily but the last thing I knew is he was beginning to buy additional parts (more additional parts) in order to trouble shoot it and make the kit complete. If you want to compare his statements that the "car flies on the street", then you need to take back your statements about "the numbers don't lie" elsewhere in your posts.
Anyway......
chill buddy. I just called it like I saw it. I was wrong about the blower. thanks Mr. G for setting the record straight
1. Tom said he liked the kit, my quotes from Tom came from Tom.
2. Tom seems wishy washy. Don't get me wrong he spent the money and earned the right to be picky but he lets way too many people influence his thinking rather than deal with the experts that keep giving him info as well. It is a case of only believing or hearing what you want to.
Tom said that Granatelli and Morgan at Granatelli were great to talk too and I agree. Like I said I called 4 or 5 other shops and nobody was open so Granatelli was like a last choice. Perhaps he was god sent because I feel like I ultimately made the right choice. If GMS let's me down I will let everyone know but if it works like I expect you will hear about that as well