The Whipple, Saleen and KB are all great choices for TS'. Vortech, Paxton, and Procharger for centri's.

All six are great units. They just have different characteristics. Personally, I would go with a centri.

I was hardcore turbo, but that long Granatelli thread just makes me more than nervous.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by krnpimpsta

How easy is that basic turbo kit to install? And how much does it cost? How hard is it to uninstall?

Let me start by saying Anthony05GT’s comments below are spot on and I could not agree more with 98% of what he says. After that post there really is not much more to add but I will anyway. Installing and uninstalling our turbo kit is really no big deal. It is like anything else the more you do it the easier is it and the faster it can be accomplished. I would agree that installing a turbo kit in general is a bit more tedious then the others because a lot of the work needs to be done on top and the bottom of the car (like feeding the exhaust) so installing a turbo is like installing a centrifugal and long tube headers all at the same time.

I should also state I read like 80% of the posts here before I posted so If I say something that has already been said forgive me. If you absolutely want the most power and the most torque per pound of boost, look no further then the TURBO – the Turbo is KING. It is dead quite at idle and cruise and the turbo by design is like a muffler as well. The only time you hear our turbo is when your waste gate opens under full throttle and in a manual trans when you shift you can hear the turbo flutter slightly. (most people love that part). The TS as you guys call it makes great bottom end power as compared to the centrifugal but the centrifugal will eat the TS after 4000rpm. The reason is hard to explain without a ton of charts and graphs but it goes a little like this. Roots and Twin Screw blowers by design have a narrower operating window (sweat spot). So they haul *** down low and run out of steam at the top. That is why you see so many 03/04 Cobras and GT500 cars changing to bigger blowers. No matter how small the blower pulley the blower just can’t move the air. As they move up to bigger blowers 2 things happen, Cost goes up big time and efficiency moves. Not moves up as in better but moves as in how much air it can feed the engine and what it takes to do it. The centrifugal blower like the Paxton, Vortech and Procharger designs can move a ton of air. Like in the case of the Novi 2000, the out of the box kit will support 1000 crank hp. Talk about room to grow! Wow! Just change the pulley, add headers and it is easy to make 750 hp with a Novi 2000. (yes I understand you need stronger parts to live but that is not the point here) I speak about the Novi here because I am more intimate with its performance characteristics. The centrifugal by design is lazy down low because it needs engine RPMs to dare I say “spool” it up. The real reason why the TS and roots stuff has gain popularity is simple in my mind, it is a perfect fit with the 2v, 3v and 4v Mustang engine because they have no ***** down low and that is where the TS design does best. Even better then a turbo for the first 50 feet or say 1000 to 2000 engine RPM. But after that the Turbo will eat it – but I said that already. In the past the traditional V8 engine had so much more torque down low they could carry (or make up for) the centrifugal weakness off the line. Where as the TS was still bad to the bone on those engines they fell so short after 3000 on the 302 they could never make up for the difference. Centrifugal was king back then because Paxton, Vortech and Procharger pumped so much money into advertising, FFW and NMRA that was all you saw or read about.

Here is a dyno graph of the same 2005 Mustang with a Saleen at 7.5psi and then the turbo at 6psi



<a href="http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?im...msturbohp5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/775...urbohp5.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>

[img=http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2378/saleenvsgmsturbogz5.th.jpg]

Had I ran the centrifugal on this engine, it probably would not have looked so pretty based on only 7psi. However with a 10 psi kit the centrifugal would have had (should have had) more power then the TS but not as much torque.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony05gt

I just pulled a Procharger form my '05. It's on my boy's car now. I installed a Whipple H.O. kit to replace it. They are 2 different animals all together.

Again – great comments

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny

The Whipple, Saleen and KB are all great choices for TS'. Vortech, Paxton, and Procharger for centri's.

And again, it is not fair to judge all turbos by all manufactures based solely on the problems of one guy in FL. But I understand the apprehensiveness. If you are looking for a 7psi kit and never want to touch your engine again basically marrying yourself to a great 350 RWHP car (not to shabby considering the car makes 255 stock) it is hard to beat the TS type units. And I agree JDM makes it easy to step into a nice Saleen kit. I would agree the TS with aggressive tuning and a few more pounds of boost is a 450hp car that is fun to drive – especially with an auto trans. The turbo is the way to go if you want to be a bit more exotic and make power and torque everywhere and lastly the centrifugal is great for the manual transmission guy that has 4.10 gears and wants to race from 4000 to 6500. That is why no one races with a TS at any serious level, they just can’t keep up.

We all know street driving and low speed stunt driving is what we want from our daily driver – so now you have my choices from the guy that sold centrifugal for 15 years and then made his own turbo kits…I pick the TS for ease of install and 420hp. After that the Turbo is my choice and the centrifugal is the way to go if you want to race all your buddies on the freeway and don’t want a turbo.

 

Nice reply Granatelli.

Don't get me wrong, I still like turbos. I just feel nervous about them. I think the Centri will be a nice common ground between a SC and turbo.

 

You shouldn't be nervous about Turbos for that reason but you SHOULD do your research and talk to actual owners of turbo kits or those who have installed them prior to buying one to get an unbiased opinion rather than a sales pitch. I have installed many turbo kits and countless superchargers in my shop and I have my own list of good and bad and I even have a few that I just flat out won't install due to poor quality products, service or support.

Bottom line, talk to the customer or a shop you can trust for an honest opinion and then make an informed decision from there. Also talk to those who tune cars as they will have a well informed opinion as well.

I am a huge turbo fan and highly recommend turbocharging over supercharging.

 

That is fair

 

I have a Saleen blower that is a JDM setup. Someone had asked about this specifically.

I am essentially running the stage II now with the GT500 pumps etc.

I am not running a smaller pulley yet though and not sure if I will. I'm at around 400 RWHP on a 3.6 pulley and the reason I'm not sure if I will go to the smaller pulley is the car is a friggin beast with the setup I have now.

When I say a beast... I say that in my experience. I'm sure there are others who would not think so as they are used to higher HP/TQ but for me it's MORE than ample.

JDM's tune is amazing. I'm actually having to get an adjustment now as I moved from Los Angeles to Texas and am able to run 93 octane so maybe it will yield even more power but I don't know.

Anyway, the reason I went with JDM is because I did LOADS of research before and in the end they were the best choice for me. I had the option of going to the Saleen HQ and getting it setup there, but the way they tune the car by relying on the knock sensors is too scary for me. Plus I rode in an 05 with a Saleen tune... wasn't impressed. It was not their 475 HP kit, but anyway I wasn't impressed.

JDM has the least number of failures with their setups and the Saleens as well. The major reason I went with them besides the fact that Jim is a great guy and very helpful.

My friend also has a Vortech in his 07. He was a test mule for automatics and got a sweet deal. His car is plenty fast no doubt... but it doesn't FEEL as fast. If you have ridden in both you know what I mean. If you haven't you really NEED to ride in both before you make your decision.

BTW my friend with the Vortech rode in my Mustang just after I got the Saleen installed. After the ride he looked over at me and said, "Dammit. Thanks for making my car seem slow."

Also the whine someone asked about. It's very noticable in my car. Windows up is more noticable than down, but also very noticable if you are standing next to the car. I've heard some are louder than others but I can't say I know that for certain... I love the whine though

 

I hear ya. I'm still on the fence about the subject. The two companies that I would go to for turbos would be turbohorsepower.com or hpperformance.com

Have you had any experience with their kits?

 

Yes, intimately with both. I'd be happy to go into detail with you over PM if you like but my recommendation is to go with Hellion Power Systems as a very 1st choice. The price may be a little higher but I can promise you that you will realize what a good choice it is when you have the complete kit in less than a week and the install for the S197 can be done in 1-2 days max.

 

Go ahead and PM me. I would love to hear your opinions on all three kits.

I'm curious about ease of install, turbo lag, quality, etc. You know, the basics!

Thanks for your help

 

I've tuned all of the mentioned kits, except the HpPerformance, and by far the best that I've seen as far as quality and ease of installation and tuning is the Powerhouse turbo kit on both the V6 and the V8 kit.

Thanks Doug.

 

One thing that irks me about the Hellion kit, is that some of the tubing goes under the K-member.

Do you know if Powerhouse has the same problem? I have heard about Powerhouse, but I haven't researched them. I'll have something to do tonight haha.

 

Yes, the tubing goes under the K-member however that is minor compared to the issues I've seen with other kits and fitment in different areas. One note to make though is that in response to those with lowered cars Hellion made a change to smaller diameter tubing where it goes under to help with clearance and they actually picked up 10 ft/lbs of torque while the Horsepower stayed the same. If you order a kit with the 76mm turbo though you will still get the original larger diameter piping.

 

When you were runnin the procharger did you have stock 3.55 gears? Do you think gears would have made the procharger more fun to drive on the street, with that little extra grunt down low?


Would gears make the Whipple almost a pain to drive on the street because of ALL the power down low?


thanks matt

 

Matt, not to speak for Anthony but I chose to run a centri (Vortech S-trim with Paxton 'cooler) because I wanted to have and do have 4.10s installed and let me say that although my car doesn't have the torque of a TS down low, it pulls very strongly and gets to 3500 rpm very quickly; at which point the blower (pullied for around 11-12psi) really starts to take off and from there it is a constantly increasing pull to redline.

 

Yeah thats also where I come to another question...Sure all positive displacement blowers have more power down low, but as both You and Anthony said the power of the centris hit REALLY hard up top around 3500+ RPMs

Now with that in mind, and say hypothetically speaking you are cruising down the road and a [insert fast car of your choice here] comes flying up from behind and lines up beside you. 3 honks and the race is on...Now Freeze- Most likely you are going to downshift to where you are somewhere around 3-4K rpms in order to get the best run regardless of the blower you are running, Correct?

-So wouldn't that mean, the overall advantage of the TS would be cancelled out...and the Centri. would be more in its sweet spot?

(I CAN understand how the race/situation would be different off the Line from a stop, as long as you can get traction)

 

Well, from that standpoint I think it's an advantage- the TS guys will probably argue the point and the turbo guys probably still have an overall advantage anywhere in the powerband.

 

Hey tom, I have a question for you.
I know the Vortech doesnt kick until around mid 3k, and I've heard one on a dyno (sounds incredible). But lets say you're cruising around town, and you're within the 1.5-3k range shifting on the streets. Do you hear the blower whining then or does it only whine when it starts receiving considerable boost in the 3.5k+ range? stupid question, but just curious

 

This is true. From all the videos I have seen, the T/S will jump at least a car length ahead after the third honk, but the competitor(usually a turbo) will blow by seconds later.

When the car is struggling for air in the higher RPM range, a T/S becomes detrimental because it is restrictive. A centri blower has a large advantage when it comes to this.

If I go blower, it will be centri.

 

THANKS for your post and the infos ......... ...

 

My system is noticeable at idle but that's it..... I can't hear it at all when driving. Then again, I have Ford Racing headers, offroad H, and Borla mufflers along with a 700 wrms audio system- I guess I don't hear much at all when driving LOL!


My only comment about Imatk's post is that yes a TS may "feel" faster but in actuality, it may not be any faster at all. Different rear end gears, shift points, etc. can make one car "feel" faster than another.