edumspeed

edumspeed

Troll?

Truth411

No offense was intended, BUT THE THREAD SAYS 2010 MUSTANG VS 2010 CAMARO!!!!! That is the name of the Thread!!! Look I respect the Mustang, and I am no Camaro fanboy. but for 2010 the Camaro is clearly the superior car by a wide margin. The V6 mustang is a joke in comparison to the 300+hp (Wink, Wink) V6 camaro. Over (finaly hp numbers has yet to be released) 300 hp, IRS, 50/50 weight distribution, 6spd transmissions for only 23k!! As far as the V8 camaro, Lets just say people are going to be surprise how good this car is. I will put it this way, If you guys want BMW M3 performance, ride and Handling at half the price get a Camaro SS, it's that good. for 2011 Model year the Camaro gets optional 3.73 gears and HUD, Chevy's Gen V Small Block with Direct injection, VVT, AFM etc... is right around the corner (probaly 2011 or 2012 Model year). Even if the Mystical 5.0 comes to the mustang, Ford little pony car will still be about 100 horspower down and less fuel effiecient

future9er24

I understand that this thread is discussing the pros and cons of the two cars in a which is better sort of way, but that still does not mean you can come to a mustang forum and say things like "the camaro is going to whip the new mustang" without any real proof especially with the tone you used. your tone implied that the camaro being the better car was obvious.

on a mustang board it is quite clear that such a comment is combative in nature and aimed at starting more problems. you are a new member, and because of that comment you appear to be a troll.

if you want to discuss these cars, fine. if you think the camaro will be better, fine. but post your opinions in a more respectful manner

Truth411

Ok, I will say when it comes to the V6, the camaro is obviously the better car for the money. As far as the V8, look at the pontiac G8 Gxp which goes 0-60 in 4.5 sec and hit the quarter mile in 13.00 flat. the pontiac is on Gm Zeta I chasis. the camaro is built on Zeta II (Upgraded), Compared to the Pontiac G8 GXP the camaro is lighter by about 200lbs, has about .97g's of cornering grip compared to the Pontiac .90g. The camaro has 4 pot brembo brakes at all four corners 14" front 14.4 Rear with 0 brake fade. The real surprise will be The camaro's IRS, it offers 0 wheel hop, I repeat "NONE" and it is bullet proof. It has LSD, Engine oil cooler and transmission oil cooler standard, which is perfect for the track. I did notice that the mustang has optional equipment like the track pack that brings the price rigth inline with the camaro while (no offense intended) still being inferior to it. For 2010 the Camaro is the better buy,it even gets better fuel economy than the Mustang.

P.S. the 422 hp number that GM released earlier this year were VERY EARLY peliminary numbers, don't be surprise if the final Hp and Torque numbers are a bit different for the production cars (wink, wink). And just incase somebody says the camaro will not have more HP than a corvette, I will say you are correct, for 2010 I think the corvette is getting a HP increase and this is the version of the LS3 that the camaro is getting.

jsaylor

It's not nice to fib. I can smell the Kool-Aid on you through my monitor.

What is the 'wink, wink' for? There is absolutely no reason to believe the V6 Camaro will make a significant amount more than 300hp. Frankly, one of GM's many near future problems is that their sparkling new 'HF' V6 doesn't appear to stack up particularly well to the competition. Power is fine for now, but power potential isn't particularly promising thus far compared to the competition and NVH/refinement is average for the class at best. Even better, GM couldn't even be bothered to develop the HF engine line themselves, Ricardo did it for them. Ford has been there and done that as well, but they apparently learned their lesson and are back to crafting their own powerplants. Once again, we find GM behind the curve.

If somebody is determined to wait for a superior engine offering they would be better off to wait until the 2011 Mustang, with the Colgone V6 leaving production the candidates for replacement are basically limited to one model, the 3.5L V6. It's all Ford and a blatantly better piece than the HF V6 is. And if it matters to you, Ford will likely still actually be here to service the car. Brutally honest? Yeah. But then Chevy is now apparently running into obstacles in simple items like getting the Camaro assembled, so it seems a bit foolish to try and be overly polite regarding the inevitable by this point. If Camaros are still being built in a year it almost certainly will not be by the GM we now know.

Ever driven an M3? (don't bother answering since we already know the answer) The Vette doesn't offer M3 ride or handling and that is a 45k dollar car to start. Yet we're supposed to believe that the Zeta-based Camaro does?
And how is Chevy going to build this beast? With what money? Despite what folks want to believe the government can't bail GM out because a real bailout would require hundreds of millions of dollars and real hands on support and know how from government organizations which couldn't run a bowling ball downhill with both hands and a map. And the government will have to offer any deal offered to GM to every US automaker, and likely every US tier one supplier. Not happening. The best GM fans can hope for right now is that a portion of GM survives as an American company. Frankly, in a year the Camaro could be the product of a French or Japanese company, if it is still a product at all.

Somehow, I don't think further pushrod V8 engine development is high on the priority list of anybody in the halls of GM right now. And if it still is, then the mystery of how they ended up in the dire straits they now find themselves in is solved.

stangfoeva

I've never seen a more thorough owning than this

jsaylor!

edumspeed

Truth411

I not even sure if I should respond to the nonsense you posted, But OK

1. No the camaro will not be exactly like a M3, Buuuuuutt For the money like the Pontiac G8 is **** close to riding like a 5 series (it was designed with Bmw 5 sereis in mind) the Upgraded and samaller Camaro is going to ride **** close to a Bemmer 3 series while being about 30 grand cheaper.

2. Amazing how you are trying to argue that Chevy's 304 hp V6 is a bad thing, Hmmmmm what V6 does ford have that offers more Hp, lets see.... drum roll... NOTHING!!!

3.Oh boy, aren't you mister doom and Gloom. Listen the thread is called 2010 mustang Vs 2010 Camaro. The garbage you typed on your key board does not even deserve a response and I will leave it at that.

max2000jp

I just got a chance to drive a 2008 M3 Coupe (6 speed manual) and yes the Corvette does handle as well as an M3. Ride and Feel are subjective, but the Vette is closer with the improvements in 2008. Another example is the new CTSV. Read the reviews! GM is getting closer to matching the BMW ride and "feel". Ford isn't even close.

In regards to the 2010, it carries over the overboosted and uncommunicative steering setup. This is noted in the reviews that have come out. Also, Ford hasn't adressed the brakes as well.

Truth411

By the way Yes the camaro does have a more modern Suspension than the Vette, this was discuss a long time ago with I believe Al openheiser. The camaro does not use leaf springs like the Vette does for an example. The vette is getting some upgrades in the 2010 model year, I think suspensions are one of them. Ultimately guys be prepared to pick your mouths off the floor when the Camaro SS is released.

Truth411

**** close, Gm is becoming the American BMW, but there will always be haters out there that will simply not judge a car company by its product.

max2000jp

This is kind of the pot calling the kettle black. Ford uses Cosworth for engine development, in fact they helped out on the engine in our V8 S197s.

jsaylor

If you are talking about pure numbers then the Vette stacks up just fine. Of course, if were talking pure track numbers then every car on earth should be benchmarking the current Viper, and I think we all know why that isn't happening. From a standpoint of how the car feels and reacts to what you tell it to do, the C6 Vette isn't even the match of the old E46 M3, forget the new model.

And how is that working out for them as a business model? I called this one a long ago and time is simply verifying everything I have stated. As for your argument, GM's latest efforts aren't valiant.....in fact they could easily be called stupid. Until very recently Lutz and Wagoner were running the company like there were no financial problems at all with little apparent grasp on reality on a good day. Examples. At this rate by next summer we'll have a 4000hp, and ridiculously expensive to develop, variant of the low volume Vette which will still be saddled with an interior Honda wouldn't stuff into a Civic.

GM is likewise burdened with a Zeta platform which, given the scope of the program, was and is too inflexible even for more promising economic times. Now with product cancellations galore and the very real possibility that the US market will be home to exactly one Zeta-based product within a matter of a year GM just looks that much slower and even more out of touch.

The Kappa twins were money losers of the first order with rumors indicating the cars lost GM as much as 10k per unit. Malibu was a gross miscalculation with GM showing no understanding of why Accord owners wouldn't want to trade their Honda Accord for what was effectively a similarly priced GM clone. The Lambda suv's looked very promising on launch and are still the benchmark for where car based crossovers should go in concept, but GM couldn't trouble themselves to make certain the things were built properly and now recall issues are causing obvious problems.

Even the new CTS, which is blatantly the best GM produced car since the C3 Corvette and easily one of the five best American cars introduced since the 1960's, is of little help since GM has shown no real ability to take full advantage of the situation. Wagon and coupe models are coming, but too slowly, the only 'high performance' version is the CTS-V, a blown V8 monster which leaves a mainstream performance gap between it and the more pedestrian V6 models you could drive a proverbial truck through. Even worse, thus far the goodness the CTS brings to the table shows absolutely no signs of creeping outward to the rest of the Caddy lineup anytime soon with a STS replacement currently looking to be at least three or four years away.......and I'm being optimisitc in the extreme.

Right now GM is trying to do everything but run a viable car company.

perfect? Not by any means. That said, I have read reviews of the new Fusion, Mustang, and F150 and every one has a commong theme. Ford primarily addressed the issues which most needed to be addressed. Even better, Ford is by all appearances building cars which can turn a profit for a reasonable transaction price, including the hybrid models, and is focusing their efforts on models which are going to prove most beneficial to the future of FoMoCo.

Perhaps Bob and Robert should take notes?

Ford still uses consultants on engine development, and in the past has even allowed outside sources to do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of engine development. (if you noticed I actually addressed this in my earlier post) The difference here is that, of late, Ford has actually been bringing engine development back in house, and back to the US in fact, en masse. For example, 5.0L V8, 6.2L V8, and the new Duratec V6 are all Dearborn projects which is significant to say the least given the range of applications these engines will cover. A great deal of this is likely due to the fact that Ford has been, by all appearances, more than a little unhappy with the majority of their 'outsourced' engine projects.

Far more than a consultant, the reality is that Ricardo effectively designed the HF V6 for GM. The point here was and is that, not only does GM appear to have an inability to learn from their own mistakes, they likewise appear to suffer from an inability to learn from the mistakes of their rivals.

I judge a company by how well it is run. Tell me again, what is GM's near term outlook right now?

max2000jp

I've driven both and the C6 reacts perfectly fine to driver inputs. I forget who I am replying to, so this will go to deaf ears since you are a GM hater. GM Hater point 1.

If you want to compare numbers, the ZR1 is the benchmark for American cars not the Viper. The Viper is actually a very communicative car. It gets a bad rep because it's hard to drive, but that's the point of a sports car, isn't it?


I don't disagree that GM hasn't run the company properly, but neither has Ford. Both are in trouble and have been poorly managed for years.


And GM is doing this too.....The Big 3 are starting to listen to consumers. It's a new idea!!

There is no problem with outsourcing know how. I just wanted to point out that all manufacturers do this. The Duratec motor heavily relied on Porsche and Cosworth in the 1990s.

See my post above. Should I bash Ford because they didn't have the expertise to build a modern V6 in the 1990s? All manufacturers use outside engineering resources. To criticize GM for using an outside resource is downright stupid.

Ford, GM, and DCX all in the same boat.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/23/news...ion=2008122316

All are "junk" according to the rating services. Arguing that one company is better, is like 3 people with IQ's of 25, 35, and 45 fighting over who is smarter.

Now, I will say that Ford's liquidity is the greatest, but they all face the same issues.

Lastly, start being an actual "car guy". Most of your posts are critical of GM or the competition. Ford has its share of problems and lets not shove them under the carpet. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all do make a few products that are great.

MBK

who cares anymore! they are both cool cars

jsaylor

I am only quoting only the sections worth replying to from your posts since, by this juncture, it is obvious that you primarily intend to rant and have absolutely no concept of how to run a business. (perhaps that explains why you feel such a bond with Robert and Bob?)

The Viper is very communicative, as is the Z06. But as for the point of a sports car, you are absolutely wrong when looked upon from the perspective of the manufacturer. The primary point of a sports car should be the same as any other model, to move enough units to be profitable. In this day and age that means that hard and fast numbers count, but refinement does as well.

So, if you wish, I'll gladly replace the Viper with the ZR1 as the benchmark for American cars. The ZR1 is a ridiculously fast, and extremely expensive to develop, super car which addressed almost none of the issues plaguing the base model cars while 'fixing' the one thing the Vette does best....going fast. Even better, this is the second go 'round GM has had at fixing what isn't wrong with the Corvette, the Z06 being the first. Best of all, the above was undertaken by a company which is well past even being able to file Chapter 11 reorganization without inducing giggles.

Congratulations Robert and Bob. Collectively you have developed and built yet another car you couldn't afford to devlop and build, all the while ignoring other avenues of investment like speeding up the North American debut date of a badly needed Cobalt replacement or even possibly improving that same replacement. My apologies if I am less inclined than you to stand and applaud the hollow victories of a corporation led by idiots.

Yes and no. Both are indeed in trouble, but the difference is massive. Ford has issues but they are by all appearances still sixable and are being addressed in a manner which makes sense and in proper order. The leadership at GM is in far more dire shape and until recently was throwing large sums of money at projects like the ZR1 which leaves me scratching my head. From a organization standpoint there is no sign that anybody knows what they are doing.


Which consumers are they listening to? And when they listen how are they addressing the problem? With Malibu Chevy brought out a surprisingly competitive mid-size offering which may have accomplished much of what they needed to accomplish , had such a competitive model debuted back when the Malibu was first reborn at the end of the last decade. At this point the Malibu was nothing more than an excercise in communicating just how out of touch GM management actually is. GM obviously had no idea of just how damaged the Chevy brand was and is in the eyes of the typical Pacific Rim buyer and had to find out the hard way. In fact, the hard way seems to be GM's preferred method of learning lessons these days.

I could go on and on with models like the G8, Z06, etc. It isn't enough to know what consumers want, you have to know what they would be willing to buy from your business. By all appearnaces GM hasn't a clue.

The first gen Duratec V6 was actually the engine I was thinking of when I quipped that GM showed no ability to learn from the mistakes of it's rivals. (you did notice the portion where I criticize GM for not learning from the mistakes of their rivals...right?...who did you think I was referring to?) It is worth noting that Ford is, by all appearances, leaving this practice behind despite the fact that existing economic conditions make it even more attractive than it once was. So, like I said, we find GM behind the curve yet again.

ROFL. Read my post, I am effectively criticizing Ford (unless you can think of another reason why I would refer to such a strategy as being a mistake in general) for having done it and likewise recognize that they have since reduced the amount of engine development which is being outsourced drastically. So yes, please feel free to post a scathing post blasting Ford for a practice they are phasing out! You suggested I reference your post, I would advise you try the same.


Not even close. Ford still has a very realistic chance of actually coming out of this in a form we will recognize. GM is well past the point of no return and, short of a 12 digit infusion of cash has no hope of survival whatsoever. How you can compare those two situations with a straight face is a question I actually don't want to ask.

Yes, I truly must stop judging how well GM is run by looking at how well the company is actually run. GM does build a few truly promising models, one or two of which are even great. Unfortunately, none of those models are going to do one whit to save the company because the guys running GM have no concept of reality. In the spirit of cooperation I have some advice for you as well. Before you make judgements about who is in what boat and how important a particular model might be, try learning something....even something small...about how to properly run a business. It's an eye opener.

As for me criticing Ford. Why would I need to? You and a few others on this forum collectively criticize every decision Ford makes good or bad so the bases are always covered.

FLAstangx3

After 137 post's, this really should get back to the topic of the origial post. In the current day scenario, 2010 Mustang wins. Why? Because it's here!! Not a concept. But actually here. Not dreamed up and flaunted since 2006, and STILL just a concept. Looks as if the General will be increasing the price of the MAYBE to be released by the END of 2010, now, CAMARO. The machinery that builds them is at a standstill, till the court's now decide ownership of them, and just how much MORE the General will have to pay, to continue their use.

max2000jp

I will leave the rest of your post alone because it's typical Jsaylor bashing of anything other than Ford, but I'd like to touch on this.

I know perfectly well how to look at a balance sheet and read how a business is run. Out of the Big 3, Ford has the best chance. This isn't due to anything magical, but rather management bolstering liquidity over the last two years. Mullaly did a great job with this. I actually have great confidence in him reading and seeing what he has done. The big 800 pound gorilla that everyone is still avoiding is the UAW. To become truely profitable, the Big 3 need to figure out how to bring down the legacy costs to a manageable level to be competitive with the transplants. No one is talking about this and if GM goes into bankruptcy, it would be a huge advantage for ALL of the domestic manufacturers because a federal judge will likely make the UAW take concessions.

I am looking at GM and Ford's products as a car enthusiast, not from a business standpoint. The thread is about cars, not business models. I have no vested interest in either company, so I am not concerned about business models. If I was to grade business models, both GM and Ford would get below average scores. You don't get junk status for nothing!

The jury is out on Ford's future products, but they do look to be a real improvement. Will they sell is a question? Ford's recent launches are hit or miss.

Again, like I said earlier your arguement that Ford is the better run company is like 3 morons fighting about who has the higher IQ. Just do a bit of reading on any financial site and you will see what I mean

Truth411

Sigh, Your ignorance and Bais is just embarrasing, I will only resond to one aspect of your post. The chevy Malibu have been a sales hit and a success. Guess what is the number 1 trade in car for the chevy malibu?? ..... Drum roll..... THE TOYOTA CAMARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your ignorance and bais is turly incredible!! Also the coblalt replacement is the Chevy Cruze which looks beautiful inside and out while acheveing over 40mpg hwy. But BACT TO THE TOPIC PLEASE!! The 2010 Camaro is the better car than the 2010 Mustang. The camaro has superior chasis, Performance, Fuel economy etc....