Ponies on The Run (Again)
4/4/07, 07:43 AM
#7801
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4/4/07, 08:10 AM
#7802
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I looked on the TMS Calendar and noticed Steve's age is not displayed. Are we a little ashamed of our age ? 
Mhh 35 ain't bad, your just on the peak ready to start you downward run to the BIG 4-0
Mhh 35 ain't bad, your just on the peak ready to start you downward run to the BIG 4-0
4/4/07, 09:41 AM
#7805
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Thank's everyone! I turned the big 34 today. I had to go into work for a few this morning. I almost got beat down by my guys once they found out it was today, but I dodged that bullet. Don't know what the Wife has planned, but to me it's just another day. Thanks again all!!!!
4/4/07, 10:39 AM
#7806
But, look what I found! My baseball bat!!
4/4/07, 11:05 AM
#7807
Team Mustang Source
Hey man, you put that shifter and 4.10's in your car and I guarantee you'll double the mileage you've put on your car since you bought it 
The stock shifter is short, yes, but the throws are way too long IMO. I went with the Hurst, yes the same one that's loathed by a ton of people because all it is is the stock shifter with a raised pivot point to reduce the throw, but I love it. I used the stock bushings front and rear - smooth quick shifts with no notchiness. Yes there is some additional noise, but so what, as Sammy Hagar once said, "turn up the music" and you won't hear anything If I was in the market for a new shifter and had the $300 to put toward it, the MGW would be in my car already
The stock shifter is short, yes, but the throws are way too long IMO. I went with the Hurst, yes the same one that's loathed by a ton of people because all it is is the stock shifter with a raised pivot point to reduce the throw, but I love it. I used the stock bushings front and rear - smooth quick shifts with no notchiness. Yes there is some additional noise, but so what, as Sammy Hagar once said, "turn up the music" and you won't hear anything If I was in the market for a new shifter and had the $300 to put toward it, the MGW would be in my car already
4/4/07, 11:14 AM
#7808
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When I say "short shifter", I'm talking about the throws, not the height of the shifter.
If you think the throws are way too long, then you've never driven an '89 Mustang with a stock shifter!
My entire arguement is based on the FACT that our stock shifter far exceeds any previous year Mustang's stock shifter. Better feel, not a wet noodle, shorter throws, nice and quiet, smooth shifting. An extraordinary balance of performance and comfort.
Ford knew a lot of enthusiasts changed the shifter on pre-'05 Mustangs, and they really did their homework this time around.
Me, too. But I'm not in the market due to all of the reasons listed above.
If you think the throws are way too long, then you've never driven an '89 Mustang with a stock shifter!
My entire arguement is based on the FACT that our stock shifter far exceeds any previous year Mustang's stock shifter. Better feel, not a wet noodle, shorter throws, nice and quiet, smooth shifting. An extraordinary balance of performance and comfort.
Ford knew a lot of enthusiasts changed the shifter on pre-'05 Mustangs, and they really did their homework this time around.
Me, too. But I'm not in the market due to all of the reasons listed above.
4/4/07, 11:36 AM
#7809
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I have to agree with you on this one, Tom. Every previous car I've owned, I changed the shifter. When I test drove this car, I said, Holy Cow, I don't have to change the shifter. And money is not an object. Tom knows how many exhausts I went through. Perhaps, if I driven a car with an aftermarket shifter, I might say, yea, this feels a little better, but I'm not having trouble with the stock shifter like I had with previous ones, missing shifts, etc.
4/4/07, 11:59 AM
#7810
... When I test drove this car, I said, Holy Cow, I don't have to change the shifter. And money is not an object.
... Perhaps, if I driven a car with an aftermarket shifter, I might say, yea, this feels a little better, but I'm not having trouble with the stock shifter like I had with previous ones, missing shifts, etc.
... Perhaps, if I driven a car with an aftermarket shifter, I might say, yea, this feels a little better, but I'm not having trouble with the stock shifter like I had with previous ones, missing shifts, etc.
Now, if you never drove a S197 with a short throw shifter, how would you know that the stock setup is perfect? It's a poor assumption.
And, just because you're not having trouble with the stock 'whatever', it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. For example, had any trouble with the stock intake, suspension, tune, etc? Of course not! But, they all have room for performance improvement. The shifter is no different.
Think with the wall down, not up like Tom.
4/4/07, 12:20 PM
#7811
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Now, if you never drove a S197 with a short throw shifter, how would you know that the stock setup is perfect? It's a poor assumption.
He never used the word "perfect", and he's not assuming, he knows the shifter is better than previous years, that's all he is saying. That's all I'm saying. And we do have S197s with short throw shifters, they came like that from the factory. Like I said, if anybody thinks our shifters are NOT short throw shifters, then they never drove any other Mustang.
And, just because you're not having trouble with the stock 'whatever', it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. For example, had any trouble with the stock intake, suspension, tune, etc? Of course not! But, they all have room for performance improvement. The shifter is no different.
Room for improvement with benefits for a daily driver? Nope. Intake, suspension, tune? Yes. Intake: great improvement in HP and looks of the engine at shows (I want the closed-loop of the stock intake, though). Suspension: huge improvement in looks, no 4x4 look, less sway. Tune: no more drive-by-wire lag, more power, tuned to your mods, correct speedo errors, firmer shifts for an auto.
Every other example we bring up has numerous benefits, even for a daily driver, especially the springs and tune. Granted, not everybody wants or needs these benefits, but they are benefits nonetheless (that more than outweigh any negatives).
Even in that list from George, there is not one benefit that would make my daily driving or car show experience BETTER with a replacement shifter... not one! And, again, that's all I'm saying.
Ok, so it may be a shorter throw (what, 15% shorter?), but then there is the extra notchy-ness that George says will be there. Then, after spending $300, everytime I shift I wish I had my stock shifter back.
Example: Everytime I drove my '03 with the Eibachs, I wish I had the stock springs back on. Everytime I saw the car sitting at a car show, I would have hated to have the stock springs back on. I hated the trade-off I made to have the looks. The Ultra-Lites are much different.
Like I said a long time ago... the more negatives you add to the car, no matter how tiny, makes driving it less and less fun.
If I had Eibach springs on the car, and that god-awful sounding H-Pipe, and the light bar still on that created wind noise with the top down, and then added a notchy shifter I would leave the car in the garage and drive the Ranger every day. I wouldn't be able to turn the radio up loud enough.
He never used the word "perfect", and he's not assuming, he knows the shifter is better than previous years, that's all he is saying. That's all I'm saying. And we do have S197s with short throw shifters, they came like that from the factory. Like I said, if anybody thinks our shifters are NOT short throw shifters, then they never drove any other Mustang.
And, just because you're not having trouble with the stock 'whatever', it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. For example, had any trouble with the stock intake, suspension, tune, etc? Of course not! But, they all have room for performance improvement. The shifter is no different.
Room for improvement with benefits for a daily driver? Nope. Intake, suspension, tune? Yes. Intake: great improvement in HP and looks of the engine at shows (I want the closed-loop of the stock intake, though). Suspension: huge improvement in looks, no 4x4 look, less sway. Tune: no more drive-by-wire lag, more power, tuned to your mods, correct speedo errors, firmer shifts for an auto.
Every other example we bring up has numerous benefits, even for a daily driver, especially the springs and tune. Granted, not everybody wants or needs these benefits, but they are benefits nonetheless (that more than outweigh any negatives).
Even in that list from George, there is not one benefit that would make my daily driving or car show experience BETTER with a replacement shifter... not one! And, again, that's all I'm saying.
Ok, so it may be a shorter throw (what, 15% shorter?), but then there is the extra notchy-ness that George says will be there. Then, after spending $300, everytime I shift I wish I had my stock shifter back.
Example: Everytime I drove my '03 with the Eibachs, I wish I had the stock springs back on. Everytime I saw the car sitting at a car show, I would have hated to have the stock springs back on. I hated the trade-off I made to have the looks. The Ultra-Lites are much different.
Like I said a long time ago... the more negatives you add to the car, no matter how tiny, makes driving it less and less fun.
If I had Eibach springs on the car, and that god-awful sounding H-Pipe, and the light bar still on that created wind noise with the top down, and then added a notchy shifter I would leave the car in the garage and drive the Ranger every day. I wouldn't be able to turn the radio up loud enough.
4/4/07, 01:29 PM
#7812
Well, since Tom feels like answering for Mike, here's my response to Mike.
Now, if you never drove a S197 with a short throw shifter, how would you know that the stock setup is perfect? It's a poor assumption.
He never used the word "perfect", and he's not assuming, he knows the shifter is better than previous years, that's all he is saying. That's all I'm saying. And we do have S197s with short throw shifters, they came like that from the factory. Like I said, if anybody thinks our shifters are NOT short throw shifters, then they never drove any other Mustang.
Oh, I'm sorry. One would gave guessed that, "Holy Cow" and "I don't have to change the shifter" in the same sentence would equate to being 'PERFECT'.
And, why do you keep referring back to the previous generation Mustangs?
We are talking about the S197, and ONLY the S197.
Hate to burst your bubble, but what comes stock on our S197's are standard throw shifters. They are neither long nor short, it's what we call baseline reference. If what you're saying is true about the factory calling the stock shifter 'short', then what's the classification of the aftermarket shifter compaines, 'shorter throw shifters'?
And, just because you're not having trouble with the stock 'whatever', it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. For example, had any trouble with the stock intake, suspension, tune, etc? Of course not! But, they all have room for performance improvement. The shifter is no different.
Room for improvement with benefits for a daily driver? Nope.
So let's get this straight.. If Tom says a certain mod is no good for a 'daily driver', then it's a waste of time and money. Anyone else find this statement ludicrous? You word is not gold, you're merely stating your opinion on what your perception of what a 'daily driver' car should be.
Even in that list from George, there is not one benefit that would make my daily driving or car show experience BETTER with a replacement shifter... not one! And, again, that's all I'm saying.
I agree, of course not! To reiterate, if you believe that what you have is the best and cannot be improved, naturally there won't be any benefits. And, again, that's all I'm saying.
Ok, so it may be a shorter throw (what, 15% shorter?), but then there is the extra notchy-ness that George says will be there. Then, after spending $300, everytime I shift I wish I had my stock shifter back.
What's this? A back-pedalling statement?
I'd like to know why a 'notchy-ness', positive shift engagement is a bad thing. Your 'limp wrist' can't handle it?
Off topic, guys like you prefer a 22 cal pistol because it's easy to shoot with less recoil. Others, like myself, prefer the Glock 45 cal (and for the hardcore, the Desert Eagle 50 cal!).
Example: Everytime I drove my '03 with the Eibachs, I wish I had the stock springs back on. Everytime I saw the car sitting at a car show, I would have hated to have the stock springs back on. I hated the trade-off I made to have the looks. The Ultra-Lites are much different.
Can some pull Tom out from the past?
Why not drag in the 60's, 70's, and 80's Mustangs too? What's that? Because that's not what were're talking about? My point exactly.
Like I said a long time ago... the more negatives you add to the car, no matter how tiny, makes driving it less and less fun.
(I'll use an old car for this example since Tom always does..)
As loud (more like obnoxiously loud), stiff riding, notchy shifter a Shelby 427 Cobra may be, I think I can find some 'fun' in driving it. AND, some will have no qualms about driving it EVERYDAY.
If I had Eibach springs on the car, and that god-awful sounding H-Pipe, and the light bar still on that created wind noise with the top down, and then added a notchy shifter I would leave the car in the garage and drive the Ranger every day. I wouldn't be able to turn the radio up loud enough.
Quick! someone give Tom a nipple!
Maybe you just should have bought one of these. Or, better yet, someone please remind him that we have a Sports Car.
I rarely listen to the stereo, my god-awful sounding H is music to my ears!
Sucks arguing with someone who has a brain, huh?
Now, if you never drove a S197 with a short throw shifter, how would you know that the stock setup is perfect? It's a poor assumption.
He never used the word "perfect", and he's not assuming, he knows the shifter is better than previous years, that's all he is saying. That's all I'm saying. And we do have S197s with short throw shifters, they came like that from the factory. Like I said, if anybody thinks our shifters are NOT short throw shifters, then they never drove any other Mustang.
Oh, I'm sorry. One would gave guessed that, "Holy Cow" and "I don't have to change the shifter" in the same sentence would equate to being 'PERFECT'.
And, why do you keep referring back to the previous generation Mustangs?
We are talking about the S197, and ONLY the S197.Hate to burst your bubble, but what comes stock on our S197's are standard throw shifters. They are neither long nor short, it's what we call baseline reference. If what you're saying is true about the factory calling the stock shifter 'short', then what's the classification of the aftermarket shifter compaines, 'shorter throw shifters'?
And, just because you're not having trouble with the stock 'whatever', it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. For example, had any trouble with the stock intake, suspension, tune, etc? Of course not! But, they all have room for performance improvement. The shifter is no different.
Room for improvement with benefits for a daily driver? Nope.
So let's get this straight.. If Tom says a certain mod is no good for a 'daily driver', then it's a waste of time and money. Anyone else find this statement ludicrous? You word is not gold, you're merely stating your opinion on what your perception of what a 'daily driver' car should be.
Even in that list from George, there is not one benefit that would make my daily driving or car show experience BETTER with a replacement shifter... not one! And, again, that's all I'm saying.
I agree, of course not! To reiterate, if you believe that what you have is the best and cannot be improved, naturally there won't be any benefits. And, again, that's all I'm saying.
Ok, so it may be a shorter throw (what, 15% shorter?), but then there is the extra notchy-ness that George says will be there. Then, after spending $300, everytime I shift I wish I had my stock shifter back.
What's this? A back-pedalling statement?
I'd like to know why a 'notchy-ness', positive shift engagement is a bad thing. Your 'limp wrist' can't handle it?
Off topic, guys like you prefer a 22 cal pistol because it's easy to shoot with less recoil. Others, like myself, prefer the Glock 45 cal (and for the hardcore, the Desert Eagle 50 cal!).
Example: Everytime I drove my '03 with the Eibachs, I wish I had the stock springs back on. Everytime I saw the car sitting at a car show, I would have hated to have the stock springs back on. I hated the trade-off I made to have the looks. The Ultra-Lites are much different.
Can some pull Tom out from the past?
Why not drag in the 60's, 70's, and 80's Mustangs too? What's that? Because that's not what were're talking about? My point exactly.
Like I said a long time ago... the more negatives you add to the car, no matter how tiny, makes driving it less and less fun.
(I'll use an old car for this example since Tom always does..)
As loud (more like obnoxiously loud), stiff riding, notchy shifter a Shelby 427 Cobra may be, I think I can find some 'fun' in driving it. AND, some will have no qualms about driving it EVERYDAY.
If I had Eibach springs on the car, and that god-awful sounding H-Pipe, and the light bar still on that created wind noise with the top down, and then added a notchy shifter I would leave the car in the garage and drive the Ranger every day. I wouldn't be able to turn the radio up loud enough.
Quick! someone give Tom a nipple!
Maybe you just should have bought one of these. Or, better yet, someone please remind him that we have a Sports Car.
I rarely listen to the stereo, my god-awful sounding H is music to my ears!
Sucks arguing with someone who has a brain, huh?
4/4/07, 01:58 PM
#7814
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That post must have taken you the entire 1 hour and 9 minutes to type.
The one thing your brain can't remember is that my point (from the very beginning) is that the quality of our shifters can be compared to owning an older Mustang (like my '89 or Mike's '99) with an aftermarket shifter already installed. Of course I'm going to keep referring back to the pre-S197s because that was my initial statement and arguement - and has been all along!
And that's what Mike is saying, too. We drove the cars the first time and thought, well, these mufflers have to go... you can't hear them. But, man, this shifter is GREATLY improved compared to older Mustangs we have driven... don't need to spend any money there.
Did Ford do their homework on the mufflers in 2005+ Mustangs compared to earlier Mustangs? A little bit, but they still have noise regulations to abide by. The stance? A little better, but who knows why they still have to make them so 4x4-ish. The tune? Hardly with that drive-by-wire lag. The intake? Sure, but can still be opened up and made to be a straighter shot. The shifter? Hell, yes. It is a shorter throw now, it is firmer, it is quieter, it is easier to shift. Of course these things can be improved on even further, but at what cost?
Before 2005, Ford sided on the comfort level of the shifter and left a lot to be desired performance-wise. 2005 and on, Ford definitely hit the nail on the head with the shifter. It may need another tap to drive it all the way home, but not nearly as many taps as the springs, the mufflers, and the tune did.
Wow, I like that last statement - my brain works pretty good, too. And you, Billy-Boy, should be able to agree with that statement 100%.
The one thing your brain can't remember is that my point (from the very beginning) is that the quality of our shifters can be compared to owning an older Mustang (like my '89 or Mike's '99) with an aftermarket shifter already installed. Of course I'm going to keep referring back to the pre-S197s because that was my initial statement and arguement - and has been all along!
And that's what Mike is saying, too. We drove the cars the first time and thought, well, these mufflers have to go... you can't hear them. But, man, this shifter is GREATLY improved compared to older Mustangs we have driven... don't need to spend any money there.
Did Ford do their homework on the mufflers in 2005+ Mustangs compared to earlier Mustangs? A little bit, but they still have noise regulations to abide by. The stance? A little better, but who knows why they still have to make them so 4x4-ish. The tune? Hardly with that drive-by-wire lag. The intake? Sure, but can still be opened up and made to be a straighter shot. The shifter? Hell, yes. It is a shorter throw now, it is firmer, it is quieter, it is easier to shift. Of course these things can be improved on even further, but at what cost?
Before 2005, Ford sided on the comfort level of the shifter and left a lot to be desired performance-wise. 2005 and on, Ford definitely hit the nail on the head with the shifter. It may need another tap to drive it all the way home, but not nearly as many taps as the springs, the mufflers, and the tune did.
Wow, I like that last statement - my brain works pretty good, too. And you, Billy-Boy, should be able to agree with that statement 100%.
4/4/07, 02:12 PM
#7815
That post must have taken you the entire 1 hour and 9 minutes to type.
Eating lunch was included.
Of course I'm going to keep referring back to the pre-S197s because that was my initial statement and arguement - and has been all along!
IF that was the arguement, your comparison is only between the pre-05's and the S197's. Who really cares about that? Steve? Leo? Daryl? I think what they would care about NOW is how the stock shifter compares to the MGW shifter.
.. this shifter is GREATLY improved compared to older Mustangs we have driven... don't need to spend any money there.
No duh! You're completely missing my point. Instead of skimming over what I wrote in my last post, READ IT.
.. Of course these things can be improved on even further, but at what cost?
Wait.. what's that? There is room for improvement?
And at what cost? That's all relative to an individual's pocketbook.
Before 2005, Ford sided on the comfort level of the shifter and left a lot to be desired performance-wise.
Wow, I like that last statement - my brain works pretty good, too. And you, Billy-Boy, should be able to agree with that statement 100%.
But didn't you just mention that the stock shifters are really comfortable?
Yes, yes, Tommy-Boy.. I agree.
Eating lunch was included.
Of course I'm going to keep referring back to the pre-S197s because that was my initial statement and arguement - and has been all along!
IF that was the arguement, your comparison is only between the pre-05's and the S197's. Who really cares about that? Steve? Leo? Daryl? I think what they would care about NOW is how the stock shifter compares to the MGW shifter.
.. this shifter is GREATLY improved compared to older Mustangs we have driven... don't need to spend any money there.
No duh! You're completely missing my point. Instead of skimming over what I wrote in my last post, READ IT.
.. Of course these things can be improved on even further, but at what cost?
Wait.. what's that? There is room for improvement?
And at what cost? That's all relative to an individual's pocketbook.
Before 2005, Ford sided on the comfort level of the shifter and left a lot to be desired performance-wise.
Wow, I like that last statement - my brain works pretty good, too. And you, Billy-Boy, should be able to agree with that statement 100%.
But didn't you just mention that the stock shifters are really comfortable?
Yes, yes, Tommy-Boy.. I agree.
4/4/07, 02:21 PM
#7816
Team Mustang Source
OK, there is a line in the sand.
I see it, not that anyone asked, like this.
The stock shifter is pretty darn good. Good enough that it doesn't need to be replaced, however if you want to get a shorter throw and improve on a good product the MGW might be the way to go.
Not comparing the S197 to what we know and only relying on one ideal isn't right. Sure you get a baseline but what is it being compared to ? Each of us probably have the one S197 that we've driven and can only compare that one S197 the the other cars we've owned. So the comparisons to the previous cars, VW, SN95..etc is fair and resonable. The stock if anything is the control sample and the other shifters, cars are the test samples.
Taking the same reasoning who says the body style of our current generation Mustang is the best, why haven't we completely re-vamped the way the car looks to make it better, Hips a real fastback w/ducktail, working scoops and ducts... etc. We haven't because compared the the earlier 94-04 Mustangs what we have is pretty good and only needs slight modification to the users level of taste to make it what we want. Many leave it alone 'cause if it wasn't kick-*** the way it is stock would we have bought it at all ?
4/4/07, 02:22 PM
#7818
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Of course I'm going to keep referring back to the pre-S197s because that was my initial statement and arguement - and has been all along!
IF that was the arguement, your comparison is only between the pre-05's and the S197's. Who really cares about that? Steve? Leo? Daryl? I think what they would care about NOW is how the stock shifter compares to the MGW shifter.
I don't know what they care about. All I've said from the beginning is that this shifter is so much better and leaves little room for improvement without paying for it somewhere (not money). In previous years, you didn't care what the comfort level cost was, because you knew you had to get rid of that piece of ****.
.. this shifter is GREATLY improved compared to older Mustangs we have driven... don't need to spend any money there.
No duh! You're completely missing my point. Instead of skimming over what I wrote in my last post, READ IT.
I did read it, but I think the same thing when you respond to my comments, like some of these:
.. Of course these things can be improved on even further, but at what cost?
Wait.. what's that? There is room for improvement? Sure, with a cost.
And at what cost? That's all relative to an individual's pocketbook. Not that kind of cost.
Before 2005, Ford sided on the comfort level of the shifter and left a lot to be desired performance-wise.
But didn't you just mention that the stock shifters are really comfortable?
They are really comfortable. Before they were comfortable, but didn't do crap performance-wise. Now they are comfortable and perform like an aftermarket shifter (compared to previous years). - I have to say that, lest you forget my point.
IF that was the arguement, your comparison is only between the pre-05's and the S197's. Who really cares about that? Steve? Leo? Daryl? I think what they would care about NOW is how the stock shifter compares to the MGW shifter.
I don't know what they care about. All I've said from the beginning is that this shifter is so much better and leaves little room for improvement without paying for it somewhere (not money). In previous years, you didn't care what the comfort level cost was, because you knew you had to get rid of that piece of ****.
.. this shifter is GREATLY improved compared to older Mustangs we have driven... don't need to spend any money there.
No duh! You're completely missing my point. Instead of skimming over what I wrote in my last post, READ IT.
I did read it, but I think the same thing when you respond to my comments, like some of these:
.. Of course these things can be improved on even further, but at what cost?
Wait.. what's that? There is room for improvement? Sure, with a cost.
And at what cost? That's all relative to an individual's pocketbook. Not that kind of cost.
Before 2005, Ford sided on the comfort level of the shifter and left a lot to be desired performance-wise.
But didn't you just mention that the stock shifters are really comfortable?
They are really comfortable. Before they were comfortable, but didn't do crap performance-wise. Now they are comfortable and perform like an aftermarket shifter (compared to previous years). - I have to say that, lest you forget my point.
4/4/07, 02:23 PM
#7819
4/4/07, 02:25 PM
#7820
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Yep, you're right... I'm just pulling all my info out of my a$$ about how good this shifter is compared to previous years just so I don't have to admit that I really want one now.