Has anyone tried NitroFill in their tires ?
Cobra Member
Joined: November 27, 2004
Posts: 1,303
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque, New Mexico
PTROCKS,
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
PTROCKS,
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Joined: January 4, 2006
Posts: 3,904
Likes: 32
1st of all, Enfynet posted the CU blog first (post #78), which has direct link to the exact same data. (click on "original post").
So PT isn't the only one.
2nd...
I didn't know you were in charge of the forums now. Sorry.
We must therefore stop giving any of those nasty opinion things.
Facts only on TMS from now on.
3rd..
You wrote,"Why not take ONE tire, with, let's say 12,000 miles of moderate use"
Speaking of facts, if you looked at the tire tread wear tests from CU (the tires used):
"Each car quickly ran up close to 14,000 miles"
So basically they did the test you are asking for.
Last edited by karman; Jan 4, 2009 at 03:41 PM.
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
Be careful what you say...
1st of all, Enfynet posted the CU blog first (post #78), which has direct link to the exact same data. (click on "original post").
So PT isn't the only one.
2nd...
I didn't know you were in charge of the forums now. Sorry.
We must therefore stop giving any of those nasty opinion things.
Facts only on TMS from now on.
3rd..
You wrote,"Why not take ONE tire, with, let's say 12,000 miles of moderate use"
Speaking of facts, if you looked at the tire tread wear tests from CU (the tires used):
"Each car quickly ran up close to 14,000 miles"
So basically they did the test you are asking for.
1st of all, Enfynet posted the CU blog first (post #78), which has direct link to the exact same data. (click on "original post").
So PT isn't the only one.
2nd...
I didn't know you were in charge of the forums now. Sorry.
We must therefore stop giving any of those nasty opinion things.
Facts only on TMS from now on.
3rd..
You wrote,"Why not take ONE tire, with, let's say 12,000 miles of moderate use"
Speaking of facts, if you looked at the tire tread wear tests from CU (the tires used):
"Each car quickly ran up close to 14,000 miles"
So basically they did the test you are asking for.
Bullitt Member
Joined: August 31, 2005
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
PTROCKS,
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
FR500 Member
Joined: July 1, 2008
Posts: 3,352
Likes: 0
From: Oxford, UK
PTROCKS,
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
You are wasting your time. The true believers will NOT allow little things like "facts" or "science" to get in the way of their beliefs.
I guess it is the same thinking that allows a AGW true believer to say that:
1) Warm winter is proof of AGW.
2) Cold winter is proof of AGW.
3) Warm summer is proof of AGW.
4) Cold summer is proof of AGW.
5) Heck, even NO CHANGE is proof of AGW...
6) Alternating periods of darkness and sunlight is proof of AGW.
FR500 Member
Joined: July 1, 2008
Posts: 3,352
Likes: 0
From: Oxford, UK
But as everyone knows, it's no fun to let facts get in the way of someone's opinion.
Last edited by PTRocks; Jan 4, 2009 at 06:18 PM.
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
I appologize ! You are right ,I was looking at it wrong! They advertize less pressure loss but over a year which is true, but according to these findings it is minimal over a year! Thanks for that info! But what if the automakers do resort to use this? For what reasons would they do this? I did hear from a reliable source this could happen!
FR500 Member
Joined: July 1, 2008
Posts: 3,352
Likes: 0
From: Oxford, UK
I appologize ! You are right ,I was looking at it wrong! They advertize less pressure loss but over a year which is true, but according to these findings it is minimal over a year! Thanks for that info! But what if the automakers do resort to use this? For what reasons would they do this? I did hear from a reliable source this could happen!
Going back to the idea of car makers doing something for safety's sake, how often has this happened when not obligated by regulations? I can think of one (sort of) case in the US, the implementation of Daytime Running Lights. While they were only mandated for use on Canadian cars, once the data on accidents came in, GM and a few others opted to use it in the US too.
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
If it did happen, it would likely be for marketing reasons, with perhaps a nod to the fact that most people don't check their tires very often. I think it would be a mistake though, because as was mentioned here previously, using nitrogen can give some people a false sense of security.
Going back to the idea of car makers doing something for safety's sake, how often has this happened when not obligated by regulations? I can think of one (sort of) case in the US, the implementation of Daytime Running Lights. While they were only mandated for use on Canadian cars, once the data on accidents came in, GM and a few others opted to use it in the US too.
Going back to the idea of car makers doing something for safety's sake, how often has this happened when not obligated by regulations? I can think of one (sort of) case in the US, the implementation of Daytime Running Lights. While they were only mandated for use on Canadian cars, once the data on accidents came in, GM and a few others opted to use it in the US too.
FR500 Member
Joined: July 1, 2008
Posts: 3,352
Likes: 0
From: Oxford, UK
The showing of responsibility without the mandates of law would work out a great public relations boost for them if they did decide to use ANYTHING that infers safety,and sneek it into their ads that they did this . But what blows my mind is when a company gets someone with some clout to advocate a product! I'll mention 1 car loving, knowledgable guy, Jay Leno host of the Tonight Show . Would you take information from him as reliable when it comes to cars?
Click here to see what I mean.
You can't possibly do 100% equal road tests with different air in each tire as there are hundreds of other variables factoring into the situation. Weight balance of the vehicle, bumps in the road, duration and speed of direction changes/turns to name a few. There are a lot of psychological "comforts" that Nitrogen provides because of the claims it makes... This doesn't make the claims true, it just makes the buyer pay more attention to those things anyways. I only put air in my tires a couple times a year, and that's usually only for temperature compensation.
GT Member
Joined: September 16, 2008
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: South Central Kansas
I just finished reading most of this thread and want to put my 2 cents worth in. In my opinion Nitrofill is mostly a revenue generator when used in street cars. Very little measurable benefit if any. If you want to use it fine, if you don't fine. I have my own air compressor and check my tire pressure regularly. I would rather use the money that I didn't spend on Nitrofill on something else.
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
I just finished reading most of this thread and want to put my 2 cents worth in. In my opinion Nitrofill is mostly a revenue generator when used in street cars. Very little measurable benefit if any. If you want to use it fine, if you don't fine. I have my own air compressor and check my tire pressure regularly. I would rather use the money that I didn't spend on Nitrofill on something else.
Team Mustang Source
Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 393
Likes: 1
From: Sask. Canada
My brief flirtation with Nitrogen. 
the Caliber (Winter Drive) came with TPM and Nitrogen. first cold weather brought in an alarm
for about an hour after Startup. Took it to the Dealer, they were going to give me a free top up, (new car 3 weeks old)
It would only take a TWO HOUR wait. Politely (I'm Lying
) told them No Thanks and left.
Filled them up to 33 lbs. using my own compressor. Alarm has not come Back.
I have 3 year old OEM tires on the Mustang and check Air once a Month. No Air added during the Driving Season.
In the winter they are inflated to 38 lbs, for hibernation, they lose about a pound over the Winter Storage (6 months).
Nitrogen, Not worth the trouble.
the Caliber (Winter Drive) came with TPM and Nitrogen. first cold weather brought in an alarm
for about an hour after Startup. Took it to the Dealer, they were going to give me a free top up, (new car 3 weeks old)
It would only take a TWO HOUR wait. Politely (I'm Lying
) told them No Thanks and left.Filled them up to 33 lbs. using my own compressor. Alarm has not come Back.
I have 3 year old OEM tires on the Mustang and check Air once a Month. No Air added during the Driving Season.
In the winter they are inflated to 38 lbs, for hibernation, they lose about a pound over the Winter Storage (6 months).
Nitrogen, Not worth the trouble.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 30, 2008
Posts: 721
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW USA
You do not care about the facts...
red pony, you keep asking questions you think will bolster your position, but when the answers overwhelmingly disprove your position, you just ignore them. Your closed minded one-sided involvement in this conversation is simply disingenuous. 
You REFUSE to accept copious information and test data that out right prove nitrogen's performance in street car tires offers near ZERO benefit, REALLY WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE TO YOU???
Back to the nitrogen, You pretending you might actually be swayed by the answers you keep asking for is simply disingenuous. Have you no common sense? Your illogical and unsubstantiated position in support of paying good money to fill street car tires with nitrogen is absurd.
You have shown you are not really honestly looking for proof of nitrogen’s actual leak performance compared to compressed air or how it may or may not affect tire or car performance.
You are so convinced your position is right, it simply doesn’t matter to you what the facts are. You refuse to be swayed by reason. I imagine your stubbornness could be admirable if it weren’t so absurd.
I ignored this objection the first time you posted it because it is obvious you don't know what a test protocol is, or understand how serious testing should be conducted for something like gas permeation rate of automobile tires.
To start with, any single particular tire is insignificant and no matter what the results were they would be meaningless. No reasonable test protocol would ever just keep retesting the same tire over with different gas. No one would seriously conduct a gas permeation rate test on a single tire it would be totally worthless.
I guarantee Consumer Reports test protocol are fine, and I'm sure better than yours. There is NOTHING wrong with their test and it is not “skewed”.
To answer your question, No, They were following a test protocol.
Nitrogen Tire Inflation vs. Temperature Change
There is no significant difference in expansion and contraction characteristics of nitrogen compared to air when moisture is absent. Expansion or contraction of either gas, in relation to temperature change, occurs to a similar extent over the commonly encountered pressure and temperature ranges releveant to the discussion of tire inflation. There is no practical difference as long as the gases are dry in a fixed volume container such as a tire.
The pressure in nitrogen filled tires will change when the temperature changes, just as it does with compressed air filled tires because nitrogen responds to changes in ambient temperature in a similar manner. For example, when your vehicle is parked, it will lose 1.9% of its pressure for every 10F change in temperature. These calculations are based on the ideal gas law. If a tire is filled to 32 psig at a temperature of 75F, and the outdoor temperature is 35F, the tire pressure will drop to 29 psig. These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, regardless of the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are readily aware of these parameters and set their cold inflation pressures accordingly.
So, the bottom line is that you will still see pressure changes with nitrogen. But they should be more consistent and run cooler than if they were filled with “WET” compressed air.
Hint Hint “water separator”
http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/tire...re-change.html
red pony if you are seriously really concerned enough about it to waste money on a solution, just drop $10 on a compressed air system water separator.
red pony; You professing a great family and multi-decades personal history of car auto body shop experience should know better than most about removing moisture from compressed air, since it is vastly more important when painting a car than it is in street car tire inflation.
Yes you are looking at it wrong. Yes we did, over and over and over again, But you simply will NOT let facts or the truth get in your way no matter how obvious it is...
To each his own? Everyone has a right to an opinion, like which color you like best, but you seem to have facts confused with opinions. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO real benefit.
THAT IS A SIMPLE FACT! IT HAS BEEN PROVEN. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TO EACH HIS OWN. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO actual benefit. There are no benefits, it is not a matter of opinion.
Acknowledged ! To each his own , thanks.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
TIRE SAFETY Everything Rides On It
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/.../brochure.html
The key is “inflation pressure maintenance” not some BS nitrogen inflation scam.
You REFUSE to accept copious information and test data that out right prove nitrogen's performance in street car tires offers near ZERO benefit, REALLY WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE TO YOU???
BTW, Nope~! I would NOT.
Cool Car!
But I didn't enjoy his video, Jay isn't as knowledgeable about cars as I thought. His misstatements about the sixth gear being a "top speed gear not and overdriven gear", "the same carbon-fiber brakes as the Ferrari" when they are carbon-ceramic brakes, and the heads up display only being available in the Corvette, he is supposed to be a great car guy, he should know these things...
But I didn't enjoy his video, Jay isn't as knowledgeable about cars as I thought. His misstatements about the sixth gear being a "top speed gear not and overdriven gear", "the same carbon-fiber brakes as the Ferrari" when they are carbon-ceramic brakes, and the heads up display only being available in the Corvette, he is supposed to be a great car guy, he should know these things...
Back to the nitrogen, You pretending you might actually be swayed by the answers you keep asking for is simply disingenuous. Have you no common sense? Your illogical and unsubstantiated position in support of paying good money to fill street car tires with nitrogen is absurd.
You have shown you are not really honestly looking for proof of nitrogen’s actual leak performance compared to compressed air or how it may or may not affect tire or car performance.
You are so convinced your position is right, it simply doesn’t matter to you what the facts are. You refuse to be swayed by reason. I imagine your stubbornness could be admirable if it weren’t so absurd.
I must say , you put up a noble fight! But still there are others that have used the product, and possible auto makers turning to it for use in the future who also are looking for every last advantage they can in every way either from a sales standpoint or other reasons you have voiced your opinions on. I don't think this thing is going to go away! How much longer will you "go on chasing after windmills"?
I ignored this objection the first time you posted it because it is obvious you don't know what a test protocol is, or understand how serious testing should be conducted for something like gas permeation rate of automobile tires.
To start with, any single particular tire is insignificant and no matter what the results were they would be meaningless. No reasonable test protocol would ever just keep retesting the same tire over with different gas. No one would seriously conduct a gas permeation rate test on a single tire it would be totally worthless.
I guarantee Consumer Reports test protocol are fine, and I'm sure better than yours. There is NOTHING wrong with their test and it is not “skewed”.
To answer your question, No, They were following a test protocol.
Joseph-Louis Gay-Lussac (1778-1850) excerpts from The Expansion of Gases by Heat The law of expansion of gases and vapors From his first major program of research in 1801–1802, Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac concluded that equal volumes of all gases expand equally with the same increase in temperature: Usually called "Charles's law" in honor of Jacques Charles.
The experiments which I have now reported and which have all been made with great care prove incontestably that atmospheric air and the gases oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, nitrous oxide, ammonia, muriatic acid, sulphurous acid and carbonic acid all have the same expansion between the same degrees of heat; and thus consequently their greater or less density at the same pressure and temperature, their greater or less solubility in water, and their particular character have no influence on their expansion. On this basis I conclude that all gases in general expand equally between the same degrees of heat provided that they are all brought under the same conditions.
http://chemheritage.org/classroom/ch...ay-lussac.html
http://web.lemoyne.edu/~giunta/gaygas.html
The experiments which I have now reported and which have all been made with great care prove incontestably that atmospheric air and the gases oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, nitrous oxide, ammonia, muriatic acid, sulphurous acid and carbonic acid all have the same expansion between the same degrees of heat; and thus consequently their greater or less density at the same pressure and temperature, their greater or less solubility in water, and their particular character have no influence on their expansion. On this basis I conclude that all gases in general expand equally between the same degrees of heat provided that they are all brought under the same conditions.
http://chemheritage.org/classroom/ch...ay-lussac.html
http://web.lemoyne.edu/~giunta/gaygas.html
Nitrogen Tire Inflation vs. Temperature Change
There is no significant difference in expansion and contraction characteristics of nitrogen compared to air when moisture is absent. Expansion or contraction of either gas, in relation to temperature change, occurs to a similar extent over the commonly encountered pressure and temperature ranges releveant to the discussion of tire inflation. There is no practical difference as long as the gases are dry in a fixed volume container such as a tire.
The pressure in nitrogen filled tires will change when the temperature changes, just as it does with compressed air filled tires because nitrogen responds to changes in ambient temperature in a similar manner. For example, when your vehicle is parked, it will lose 1.9% of its pressure for every 10F change in temperature. These calculations are based on the ideal gas law. If a tire is filled to 32 psig at a temperature of 75F, and the outdoor temperature is 35F, the tire pressure will drop to 29 psig. These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, regardless of the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are readily aware of these parameters and set their cold inflation pressures accordingly.
So, the bottom line is that you will still see pressure changes with nitrogen. But they should be more consistent and run cooler than if they were filled with “WET” compressed air.
Hint Hint “water separator”
http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/tire...re-change.html
Dear Tom and Ray:
I heard a story on my local NPR station about a place in Houston where car owners can have the air in their tires replaced with nitrogen at a cost of $100. This service is advertised as a fuel economy enhancement because nitrogen diffuses through the tire at a slower rate than air, and so the tires stay at the proper pressure longer. Is this a scam, or what? -- Mark
Ray: Yes. And a very clever one at that. In fact, my brother's on the phone right now seeing if we can get the local nitrogen-transfusion franchise around here.
Tom: Their claim that nitrogen keeps your tire pressure more constant is actually correct. But their reasoning is wacko. It has nothing to do with diffusion of air through the rubber.
Ray: The reason nitrogen pressure stays more constant than air pressure is because air contains water vapor, and so it expands less predictably than nitrogen. There's a different percentage of water vapor in the air on any given day (a k a the humidity), so you never know exactly how much tire expansion you'll get from the water vapor.
Hint Hint “water separator”
Tom:It's not enough expansion for you or me to notice , but some race-car drivers notice it. Formula One (i.e., Indy 500) racers use nitrogen in their tires because when you're traveling around an oval track at 200 mph, you want your tire pressure to be entirely predictable. They even "stagger" the tire pressure on those cars, making the outside tires a little fuller than the inside tires to keep the car turning inward. And at those speeds, an eighth of an inch in tire height can make a huge difference.
Ray: But for you and me (and everyone else reading this column today), Mark, it makes absolutely no difference at all. And it's simply not worth it (unless, of course, you can steal the nitrogen from work!).
Tom:Seriously, you can keep your tire pressure constant enough for street and highway driving by simply checking it periodically.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...tember/05.html
Ray: Yes. And a very clever one at that. In fact, my brother's on the phone right now seeing if we can get the local nitrogen-transfusion franchise around here.
Tom: Their claim that nitrogen keeps your tire pressure more constant is actually correct. But their reasoning is wacko. It has nothing to do with diffusion of air through the rubber.
Ray: The reason nitrogen pressure stays more constant than air pressure is because air contains water vapor, and so it expands less predictably than nitrogen. There's a different percentage of water vapor in the air on any given day (a k a the humidity), so you never know exactly how much tire expansion you'll get from the water vapor.
Hint Hint “water separator”
Tom:It's not enough expansion for you or me to notice , but some race-car drivers notice it. Formula One (i.e., Indy 500) racers use nitrogen in their tires because when you're traveling around an oval track at 200 mph, you want your tire pressure to be entirely predictable. They even "stagger" the tire pressure on those cars, making the outside tires a little fuller than the inside tires to keep the car turning inward. And at those speeds, an eighth of an inch in tire height can make a huge difference.
Ray: But for you and me (and everyone else reading this column today), Mark, it makes absolutely no difference at all. And it's simply not worth it (unless, of course, you can steal the nitrogen from work!).
Tom:Seriously, you can keep your tire pressure constant enough for street and highway driving by simply checking it periodically.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...tember/05.html
red pony if you are seriously really concerned enough about it to waste money on a solution, just drop $10 on a compressed air system water separator.
red pony; You professing a great family and multi-decades personal history of car auto body shop experience should know better than most about removing moisture from compressed air, since it is vastly more important when painting a car than it is in street car tire inflation.
SG Tool Aid (99000) In Line Water Separator and Air Filter $10.79
Removes water and foreign particles from compressed air stream
http://www.tooltopia.com/index.asp?P...D&ProdID=31710
Air Oil & Water Separator $7.99
Air oil & water separator
http://www.cvfsupply.com/air_tools/a...separator.html
Removes water and foreign particles from compressed air stream
http://www.tooltopia.com/index.asp?P...D&ProdID=31710
Air Oil & Water Separator $7.99
Air oil & water separator
http://www.cvfsupply.com/air_tools/a...separator.html
Yes you are looking at it wrong. Yes we did, over and over and over again, But you simply will NOT let facts or the truth get in your way no matter how obvious it is...
Yeah , I guess you guys did try to present your thoughts to this subject with your findings too! And thank you for keeping a sense of humor about it in the process. I just wish they would just use 1 tire! They could control the outcome by eliminating the variables of multible casings...unless I'm looking at it wrong?
To each his own? Everyone has a right to an opinion, like which color you like best, but you seem to have facts confused with opinions. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO real benefit.
THAT IS A SIMPLE FACT! IT HAS BEEN PROVEN. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TO EACH HIS OWN. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO actual benefit. There are no benefits, it is not a matter of opinion.
I just finished reading most of this thread and want to put my 2 cents worth in. In my opinion Nitrofill is mostly a revenue generator when used in street cars. Very little measurable benefit if any. If you want to use it fine, if you don't fine. I have my own air compressor and check my tire pressure regularly. I would rather use the money that I didn't spend on Nitrofill on something else.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
TIRE SAFETY Everything Rides On It
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/.../brochure.html
The key is “inflation pressure maintenance” not some BS nitrogen inflation scam.
Last edited by Black GT500; Jan 5, 2009 at 01:41 AM.
There you go throwing those big words and your "intelligence" around again!
Thread Starter
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
From: new castle, pa
red pony, you keep asking questions you think will bolster your position, but when the answers overwhelmingly disprove your position, you just ignore them. Your closed minded one-sided involvement in this conversation is simply disingenuous.
You REFUSE to accept copious information and test data that out right prove nitrogen's performance in street car tires offers near ZERO benefit, REALLY WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE TO YOU???
Back to the nitrogen, You pretending you might actually be swayed by the answers you keep asking for is simply disingenuous. Have you no common sense? Your illogical and unsubstantiated position in support of paying good money to fill street car tires with nitrogen is absurd.
You have shown you are not really honestly looking for proof of nitrogen’s actual leak performance compared to compressed air or how it may or may not affect tire or car performance.
You are so convinced your position is right, it simply doesn’t matter to you what the facts are. You refuse to be swayed by reason. I imagine your stubbornness could be admirable if it weren’t so absurd.
I ignored this objection the first time you posted it because it is obvious you don't know what a test protocol is, or understand how serious testing should be conducted for something like gas permeation rate of automobile tires.
To start with, any single particular tire is insignificant and no matter what the results were they would be meaningless. No reasonable test protocol would ever just keep retesting the same tire over with different gas. No one would seriously conduct a gas permeation rate test on a single tire it would be totally worthless.
I guarantee Consumer Reports test protocol are fine, and I'm sure better than yours. There is NOTHING wrong with their test and it is not “skewed”.
To answer your question, No, They were following a test protocol.
red pony; You professing a great family and multi-decades personal history of car auto body shop experience should know better than most about removing moisture from compressed air, since it is vastly more important when painting a car than it is in street car tire inflation.
To each his own? Everyone has a right to an opinion, like which color you like best, but you seem to have facts confused with opinions. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO real benefit.
THAT IS A SIMPLE FACT! IT HAS BEEN PROVEN. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TO EACH HIS OWN. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO actual benefit. There are no benefits, it is not a matter of opinion.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
TIRE SAFETY Everything Rides On It
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/.../brochure.html
The key is “inflation pressure maintenance” not some BS nitrogen inflation scam.
You REFUSE to accept copious information and test data that out right prove nitrogen's performance in street car tires offers near ZERO benefit, REALLY WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE TO YOU???
BTW, Nope~! I would NOT.
Back to the nitrogen, You pretending you might actually be swayed by the answers you keep asking for is simply disingenuous. Have you no common sense? Your illogical and unsubstantiated position in support of paying good money to fill street car tires with nitrogen is absurd.
You have shown you are not really honestly looking for proof of nitrogen’s actual leak performance compared to compressed air or how it may or may not affect tire or car performance.
You are so convinced your position is right, it simply doesn’t matter to you what the facts are. You refuse to be swayed by reason. I imagine your stubbornness could be admirable if it weren’t so absurd.
I ignored this objection the first time you posted it because it is obvious you don't know what a test protocol is, or understand how serious testing should be conducted for something like gas permeation rate of automobile tires.
To start with, any single particular tire is insignificant and no matter what the results were they would be meaningless. No reasonable test protocol would ever just keep retesting the same tire over with different gas. No one would seriously conduct a gas permeation rate test on a single tire it would be totally worthless.
I guarantee Consumer Reports test protocol are fine, and I'm sure better than yours. There is NOTHING wrong with their test and it is not “skewed”.
To answer your question, No, They were following a test protocol.
Joseph-Louis Gay-Lussac (1778-1850) excerpts from The Expansion of Gases by Heat The law of expansion of gases and vapors From his first major program of research in 1801–1802, Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac concluded that equal volumes of all gases expand equally with the same increase in temperature: Usually called "Charles's law" in honor of Jacques Charles.
The experiments which I have now reported and which have all been made with great care prove incontestably that atmospheric air and the gases oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, nitrous oxide, ammonia, muriatic acid, sulphurous acid and carbonic acid all have the same expansion between the same degrees of heat; and thus consequently their greater or less density at the same pressure and temperature, their greater or less solubility in water, and their particular character have no influence on their expansion. On this basis I conclude that all gases in general expand equally between the same degrees of heat provided that they are all brought under the same conditions.
Nitrogen Tire Inflation vs. Temperature Change
There is no significant difference in expansion and contraction characteristics of nitrogen compared to air when moisture is absent. Expansion or contraction of either gas, in relation to temperature change, occurs to a similar extent over the commonly encountered pressure and temperature ranges releveant to the discussion of tire inflation. There is no practical difference as long as the gases are dry in a fixed volume container such as a tire.
The pressure in nitrogen filled tires will change when the temperature changes, just as it does with compressed air filled tires because nitrogen responds to changes in ambient temperature in a similar manner. For example, when your vehicle is parked, it will lose 1.9% of its pressure for every 10F change in temperature. These calculations are based on the ideal gas law. If a tire is filled to 32 psig at a temperature of 75F, and the outdoor temperature is 35F, the tire pressure will drop to 29 psig. These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, regardless of the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are readily aware of these parameters and set their cold inflation pressures accordingly.
So, the bottom line is that you will still see pressure changes with nitrogen. But they should be more consistent and run cooler than if they were filled with “WET” compressed air.
Hint Hint “water separator”
Dear Tom and Ray:
I heard a story on my local NPR station about a place in Houston where car owners can have the air in their tires replaced with nitrogen at a cost of $100. This service is advertised as a fuel economy enhancement because nitrogen diffuses through the tire at a slower rate than air, and so the tires stay at the proper pressure longer. Is this a scam, or what? -- Mark
Ray: Yes. And a very clever one at that. In fact, my brother's on the phone right now seeing if we can get the local nitrogen-transfusion franchise around here.
Tom: Their claim that nitrogen keeps your tire pressure more constant is actually correct. But their reasoning is wacko. It has nothing to do with diffusion of air through the rubber.
Ray: The reason nitrogen pressure stays more constant than air pressure is because air contains water vapor, and so it expands less predictably than nitrogen. There's a different percentage of water vapor in the air on any given day (a k a the humidity), so you never know exactly how much tire expansion you'll get from the water vapor.
Hint Hint “water separator”
Tom:It's not enough expansion for you or me to notice , but some race-car drivers notice it. Formula One (i.e., Indy 500) racers use nitrogen in their tires because when you're traveling around an oval track at 200 mph, you want your tire pressure to be entirely predictable. They even "stagger" the tire pressure on those cars, making the outside tires a little fuller than the inside tires to keep the car turning inward. And at those speeds, an eighth of an inch in tire height can make a huge difference.
Ray: But for you and me (and everyone else reading this column today), Mark, it makes absolutely no difference at all. And it's simply not worth it (unless, of course, you can steal the nitrogen from work!).
Tom:Seriously, you can keep your tire pressure constant enough for street and highway driving by simply checking it periodically.
red pony if you are seriously really concerned enough about it to waste money on a solution, just drop $10 on a compressed air system water separator.red pony; You professing a great family and multi-decades personal history of car auto body shop experience should know better than most about removing moisture from compressed air, since it is vastly more important when painting a car than it is in street car tire inflation.
SG Tool Aid (99000) In Line Water Separator and Air Filter $10.79
Removes water and foreign particles from compressed air stream
Air Oil & Water Separator $7.99
Air oil & water separator
Yes you are looking at it wrong. Yes we did, over and over and over again, But you simply will NOT let facts or the truth get in your way no matter how obvious it is...To each his own? Everyone has a right to an opinion, like which color you like best, but you seem to have facts confused with opinions. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO real benefit.
THAT IS A SIMPLE FACT! IT HAS BEEN PROVEN. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TO EACH HIS OWN. The FACT is paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires instead of free compressed air offers ZERO actual benefit. There are no benefits, it is not a matter of opinion.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
TIRE SAFETY Everything Rides On It
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/.../brochure.html
The key is “inflation pressure maintenance” not some BS nitrogen inflation scam.
You are wrong about me too! Sure I'm a hard headed person, but show me enough facts, and I'll apologize to you for my incorrect asumptions. I've made mistakes in judement before! Nobody is perfect, and I hope you don't judge me for a stand based on a flaw in my reasoning. And yes I am acutely aware of how important dry air is in my old trade. Dry air being as good as nitrogen was not a thought at the time I purchased nitrofill. At the time, I had the money on hand and thought "what the heck, I'll try it". Also I thought the insurance you get was good for an emergency. But when you look at the test table the loss difference is an average of 3 pounds in one YEAR not from one check point to the next! That is minimal at best and doesn't warrant its purchase on this merrit alone. The only thing I can justify is that maybe nitrogen being noncorrosive might extend the life of the tires slightly, provided I take care of the outside of the tire too.
Last edited by red pony; Jan 5, 2009 at 07:21 AM.