That would actually be very easy. Except that you insist on listing (and defending, usually by name calling and such) false benefits for nitrogen that simply are not true or are not relevant.

I'll tell you what: you quit blowing smoke up people's behinds about nitrogen and I'll quit countering your smoke with facts.

Deal?

Then you can go on with your life believing that nitrogen is the miracle gas and the rest of us can get back to reality.

 

You two with your inability to debate, and constant personal attacks are a Sad sad sad statement about the state of our society...

FYI
You two mental giants are making the claims, it is your burden to prove it.

 

Air is Free. I'm competent enough to check and refill when necessary.

 

im done here, i dont have to explain myself to you, all i know is that the nitrofill is working for me and thats it.

your lack of evidence amazes me. its on you to prove to me that this dont work.
you wont hear from me again on this thread, i aint going to argue with a bunch of no-it-alls

 

I wasn't the one that initially challenged its validity, you did so I repeat... The burden of proof is on you... show me convincing proof ... if you can! Oh and by the way , I am no mental giant. I'm argueing about air with YOU !

 

Congratulations!

The best thing about this stupid never ending nitrogen thread is that the two of you red pony & classix_stang289 with your complete inability to present even the tiniest hint of a cognizant argument have proven without a single doubt that paying money to put nitrogen in your street car tires is an absolute waste of money without a single substantiated benefit.


Your complete inability to support your outrageous claims has done a great service to all forum members and all other internet browsers who happen to read the nonsense you have posted on this thread. You have saved everyone who might stumble onto this thread money, time and some disappointment, now they can avoid wasting their time money and effort by not paying for useless nitrogen in their street car tires.

Thank You Very Much.

 

We disagree on this subject, but that's fine. As was pointed out before , this isn't a Niagara Falls situation. Some see it 1 way , some see it another. I just can't believe this lasted 126 posts and 7+ pages! If this subject is all we disagree on , we're doing good! We have exchanged info on another thread with no problems and that's cool with me ! In less than an hour we start a new year . All the best to you BlackGT500! Keep your tires pumped up!

 

You obviously have NO idea what the scientific method is all about, do you? It is NOT possible to PROVE a negative! The burden is on YOU to PROVE that your claims are TRUE. Not on us to DISPROVE them. You should have learned this some time around the 9th grade or so...


"aint" or "can't"? Every time someone posted FACTS that you didn't like, you instantly turned to name calling. That doesn't qualify as an argument, let alone a debate.

 

I put nitrogen in a lot off cars with "tpms" system on them, nitrogen does not seem to be so weather sensative were air may be great for most guys on this forum how about all those who don,t like putting air in their tires every 2 weeks. Right now my air machine makes about $600.00 a month and I don,t have to do a thing execept empty it. Nitrogen does better but one of my tech put it in. If their any truth to the rumor nitrogen may be "oem" fill on new cars soon. We'll time will tell? My offer still stands any " tms " member want to try it and live in the Tampa /ST.Pete area or here for the super bowl P/M me and I will hook you up on me!!!

 

Those are absolute unrealistic exaggerations.

I am so tired of reading this false crap about tires filled with air losing air when Nitrogen filled tires would not.

I just got up went out to my barn and checked my GT500 tires. In 4 days I will have had it for exactly 1 year. I have driven it over 5000 miles. When I picked it up on January 5th 2008, from my dealers heated shop, all 4 tires had 32 PSI of plain old air in them. It is in the high 40's today, I just checked all 4 tires and each one of them had exactly 30 PSI of plain old air in them. PAY ATTENTION HERE, THAT IS 2 PSI AIR PRESSURE LOSS IN ONE WHOLE CALENDAR YEAR. That is with the air being about 30 degrees colder today than it was in the shop one year ago.

Fer crying out loud. Anyone who has to put air in their tires every two weeks is simply an IDIOT, they have a leak and need to have it fixed. If it needs air every two weeks, the leak is big enough that it's gonna need nitrogen too. Tires that don't have a leak won't lose enough air to make any difference in year, let alone two weeks.

I have two cars with tire pressure monitoring systems "tpms" on them. The difference in the "weather sensitivity" between plain old 78% nitrogen air and 95%-98% nitrogen just isn't that significant.

If any tire is loosing more than 3 PSI of any gas within six months, you have a leak, get it fixed.

I guess it is OK if you like putting nitrogen in your own car tires? No actual harm done. The fact remains there are ZERO substantiated benefits from using nitrogen over plain old AIR.

The real problem is when you try to convince other people that there are actually any real benefits from paying to have nitrogen put in their tires, or worse, you in fact taking their money to put nitrogen in their tires.

 

I must say , you put up a noble fight! But still there are others that have used the product, and possible auto makers turning to it for use in the future who also are looking for every last advantage they can in every way either from a sales standpoint or other reasons you have voiced your opinions on. I don't think this thing is going to go away! How much longer will you "go on chasing after windmills"?

 

First of all I'am not tring to convince you of anything just saying what I know to be true in my area. of corse we have 100% humidity here and that makes a differance. Come down on the morning when the temp. drop to 40 from 85 and at 630 a/m they will be coming in for air. You said you have dry air their. All I can tell people is go check your spare tire after a piriod of time and see how low it is? The GT500 does not have a spare.

 

Florida has a very humid climate and this is the kind of place where nitrogen may easier to use than finding a source of dry air. Water vapor condenses to a liquid and can cause more noticeable changes in air pressure as it does so. Up here, I have left spares untouched for years and still have had decent air pressure.

 

How about some Q&A from Consumer Reports. I think that this provides a pretty good independent assessment of the question. Thanks to the Editors for taking the time to clear the issue.

Nitrogen in tires - Q&A

Our recent blog post, "Tires - Nitrogen Air Loss Study", looked at using nitrogen in tires. So far, it has generated a lot of interest. In fact, that post has received more comments than almost any other. Among the comments were many questions--more than could be addressed in a simple comments format.
Senior tire engineer and program leader Gene Petersen has compiled answers to the comments thus far, adding further insights into the testing and the results. A tires Q&A is presented below.
For further discussion, online subscribers are invited to engage the experts and other consumers in the "Tire Talk" forum.
For quick background on the nitrogen test:
Consumer Reports wanted to find out if nitrogen is worth the price for passenger vehicles, so we evaluated pairs of 31 tire models of H- and V-speed rated, all-season tires used in our tread wear test from 2006. We filled one tire per model with air and the other with nitrogen. The test was quite simple: fill and set the inflation pressure at room temperature to 30 psi (pounds per square inch); set the tire outdoors for one year; and then recheck the inflation pressure at room temperature after a one year period.
Read the original post.
Q: Were the tires installed on a vehicle? Would the weight of a vehicle have a greater effect on the loss of psi?
A: The tires were initially inflated indoors at room temperature and then stored outdoors for one year on a specially built tire stand to keep them separated. After one year the tires were returned to the indoor location and inflation was checked at room temperature. Our test was a controlled comparison with many tire models. Plus, we did not install them on vehicles, which may or may not have been another variable.

Q: Seems to me that since the difference is so small and nitrogen is difficult to get and more costly that it is not worth the effort and the cost.
A: That's a logical conclusion.
Q: Were the tires on new rims or older ones?
A: The tires were taken from a tread wear test we performed last year. The tires had 16,000 miles of simulated travel on the wheels, so technically the tires and wheels are used products. But I want to mention that the tread wear test ensured that the tires were well seated to the wheels.
Q: I have nitrogen in the tires on my Prius and noticed an immediate improvement in gas mileage of 3-5 mpg. Better gas mileage was the selling point when the dealer suggested the change. I'm interested to know why gas mileage was not part of the test.
A: Fuel economy is related to the tire's rolling resistance, which is a function of load and inflation pressure. High load or low pressure causes a tire to have higher rolling resistance and, therefore, lower fuel economy. If the nitrogen retains the pressure better than air in a tire, fuel economy might benefit. But I cannot think of another reason why fuel economy would solely improve based on using nitrogen in lieu of air. Overall, if you can maintain proper inflation pressure, then fuel economy will be optimum.
Q: I just thought I'd remind everyone that nitrogen makes up like 75-78% of ambient air, so air verse nitrogen should make little or no difference.
A: Yes, nitrogen makes up most of the air -- about 78% as you point out. Think about this, though: if you fill your tires with air, the oxygen is more likely to permeate out of the tires before the nitrogen and over time you end up with a higher concentration of nitrogen. I have not checked this but it seems possible.
An additional point: not all air is of equal quality. Moisture, oil from the air compressor, and other pollutants can affect tire integrity.
Q: I just had nitrogen added in our 1999 [Saab] 9-3. I'm getting roughly one mpg better than before.
A: Interesting. Maybe the tires were under-inflated before you had the nitrogen fill.
Q: The test implies the tires simply sat outside for a year and were not driven or used during that time. What good is that? Tires get used. Without testing the impact of actual wear and tear, this test is useless. Why not fill a long-term test vehicle with two nitrogen tires and two air tires and then drive it for 10k miles and inspect for wear, psi, etc?
A: The intent of the study was simply to answer how well air and nitrogen are retained in a tire. This methodology allowed us to chart the differences across more than 30 tire models in controlled conditions -- a laboratory process we would not have been able to replicate driving the vehicles. We did not explore the claimed benefits of nitrogen on limiting tire aging or look at the dynamic effect of gas permeation under operation. Those interesting topics were beyond the scope of this test. Also, wear effects would largely be affected by maintaining proper inflation pressure regardless of the gas used (air vs. nitrogen).
Q: I think we are missing some of the advantages here. First, the air loss mentioned above is 2.2 vs. 3.5 psi. That is a significant difference, even at this low inflation pressure. Also, nitrogen is an inert gas, and so will react with the rubber/chemical compounds much less, contributing to reduced wear. Another point is that nitrogen will not heat up like oxygen, so during extended highway driving you will reduce the over-inflation and wear/tear resulting from heat build-up.
A: Interesting points. Because nitrogen, in our case, is a processed gas (moisture and oil was filtered out by our nitrogen generator), you might expect better inflation control as the tire heats up under normal service vs. air with unregulated moisture, etc. And nitrogen has been shown by the government and industry to reduce tire aging.
Q: This seems like a flawed test because the tires weren't tested under "normal operating conditions."
A: Tires are designed to perform as intended with air, and the tire manufacturers tell us as much. Assuming that proper inflation pressure is maintained, the tires will run as designed using air or nitrogen.
Q: What about daily, weekly, and/or monthly fluctuations due to significant changes in the ambient air temperatures? Would you expect that the psi variation due to ambient air temperature changes over shorter periods of time could be much more pronounced?
A: We did look at the inflation pressure over various ambient temperatures but could not find a significant difference between air and nitrogen. We are not making any claims here, but just telling you what we found.
Q: A flawed study and analysis. And sadly quiet on the advantages of using nitrogen in heavy trucks where 18 tires need to be maintained weekly to pressures of 100 psi.
A: The positive benefits of nitrogen in high(er) service pressure applications, such as used in large truck tires, has been documented in the industry. Our test centered on passenger tires, only. We are not discrediting the use of nitrogen, but it is not a substitute for regular inflation checks.
Q: I think the bottom-line comment about being sure to check pressure regardless of air or nitrogen is key. I think the tendency would be to NOT check nitro filled tires as frequently as air filled.
A: I agree. People might think that once nitrogen is used to inflate tires that they no longer need to check the inflation pressure. Hopefully these tire blogs and discussion with our faithful readers will be a good reminder that there's no substitute for regularly checking your car's tires.
Learn more about tires and see the results from our latest tests in the Tires section of ConsumerReports.org.

 

Thanks Mike,
I didn't post that link because I read it before I made an "***" out of myself.
I didn't bother to re-read or post it after I was assigned my "research project" either.
I'm not trying to dredge up old animosities here
I just want to point out the inherent problems with name calling and accusations of lack of knowledge.
It is better to state one's case (hopefully backed up by at least a reasonable source) and leave it at that.

 

The only people backing anything up are the ones questioning the benefits of Nitrogen...

AAA plans cover ANY vehicle you drive, and include plenty of other perks this "Nitrogen Insurance" doesn't... but we're debating Air vs Nitrogen, not a contract you get for $50-$80.

 

Nice post Mike.

 

Yes that info was posted before. My answer to it was that the test was skewed because no two tires leak air at the same rate. My question about that test is; if the tire that was filled with nitrogen leaked air a slower rate prior to the testing, and the other tires in the test leaked more, would they have stopped right there and said nitrogen is better? I doubt it! They would have re-done the test (the right way) by swopping out the nitrogen in that 1 tire and fill it back up with regular air and re-time test that 1 tire. And, out of fairness to both sides, was the temperature the same at the testing as it was at the time of fill up ?

 

According to the Ideal Gas Law (PV = mRT), for a given volume the pressure increases in proportion to the increase in temperature and the mass of the gas. For a given volume and temperature, pure N2 has a mass slightly less than dry air, by a ratio of 28.02/28.97. (This ratio is derived from the molecular weight of pure nitrogen, and the average of the molecules in dry air) So for a given increase in temperature, the pressure of pure N2 will increase about 3.3% less than dry air.

So for dry air, if your cold tire pressure is 32.0 psi, and the hot pressure is 35.0 psi, the comparable N2 hot pressure would be 34.9 psi. Not worth the $$$ in my view (compared to dry air).

Maybe someone has the background to discuss if N2 and dry air deviate significantly from the Ideal Gas Law?

 

Yes, the temperature was the same. To quote the study: "The test was quite simple: fill and set the inflation pressure at room temperature to 30 psi (pounds per square inch); set the tire outdoors for one year; and then recheck the inflation pressure at room temperature after a one year period." They even went one better, they corrected for changes in barometric pressure between the day the tires were filled, and the day they were tested.

You do make a good point about the fact that individual tires may leak at different rates. Fortunately the folks at CR took that into account by testing 30 sets of tires. With such a large sample size, the chances of individual tire variations affecting the overall result are statistically insignificant (i.e. very, very, small). But don't believe me, take a look at the data for all 30 sets of tires, you will see that there is a variation in the differences between sets of tires. The important thing is that ON AVERAGE, these differences cancel out.