pvillepiper

I don't know if anybody else has seen this The Mustang News.
It is interesting gossip anyway. It makes me little hesitant to want to buy one if the new engine is gonna be so radical. But then the aftermarket will figure it out... It's just a question of how long. I think it confirms my thoughts on waiting to see what the SE models will have before I buy. And maybe by then there will be more concrete info on the 2009 as well.

V10

Thanks for the link, but that article has few ( if any ) facts in it. It's about 50% their wish list, 45% their speculation and about 5% factual.

It's logial that Ford would be working on DOD, but I have not seen anything concrete about any V8 DOD project @ Ford.

I also don't understand why DOD would be needed for "a more agressive tune" on the 4.6 3V. From dyno curves it's pretty clear that HP from the 3V is limited by airflow at high RPM. Some work there would add more HP but have little effect on EPA gas mileage.

pvillepiper

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(V10 @ February 18, 2006, 8:57 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thanks for the link, but that article has few ( if any ) facts in it. It's about 50% their wish list, 45% their speculation and about 5% factual.

It's logial that Ford would be working on DOD, but I have not seen anything concrete about any V8 DOD project @ Ford.

I also don't understand why DOD would be needed for "a more agressive tune" on the 4.6 3V. From dyno curves it's pretty clear that HP from the 3V is limited by airflow at high RPM. Some work there would add more HP but have little effect on EPA gas mileage.
[/b][/quote]
That is why I called it more speculation. It was interesting as it was and that's why I decided to post it, I wanted to see what others thought. No matter how much some want it I really don't think the IRS is coming and I don't see Ford dumping the 3V so quickly. But my guess may not be as good as yours or anybody else’s for that matter!

Hollywood_North GT

My favorite quote from that article:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>We see an evolution of the current chassis to continue under the new Mustang but with a few key changes. An independent rear suspension (IRS) was initially planned for the 2005 Mustang but notably missing when it arrived on the showroom floors. Why? It costs too much. While Ford has said that customers “don’t want it�, and that “it is not necessary, blah, blah, blah�, they are well aware that the competition from GM and Chrysler are going to have it. They are aware that customers want it and that it’s a necessity to win over import buyers that would otherwise shop for a Nissan 350Z or other comparable sports cars. Thus, the next Mustang will have IRS if it is to be taken seriously among its peers both stateside and from abroad.[/b][/quote]
"Blah, blah, blah," indeed. Despite what the pundits say on this board, it's long past time Ford caught up with the rest of the automotive world and offered IRS on its famous sport coupe.

exarkun

UGH

I hate hurry up and wait. Maybe it was too early to start the 2009 Forum ... there is just no single piece of real turth yet. That article is just another tease ... but I bought into it ... I am camping for a 2009 for various reasons but what will break my hopes is if they continue to use superchargers for extra power.

I really want to buy a 2009 Mustang, I really want it nautrally asperated, I really want "an affordable" 2nd generation Boss 429. It goes beyond that; I hope the other SEs get their own power plants, something unique. I wont buy a C6 vette because it shares the motor with a caddy and camaro which leaves the Z06.

I know I have to be pacient and I will, three years is a lot of time and I really hope that Ford does the right thing.

Boomer

The only problem with a powerplant that they cannot share is....cost...

The nice thing about the 4.6 4v S/C cobra engine is that the R/D is already done for it.
It's there sitting...waiting ... with over 400hp
AND the aftermarket already has some kickin parts/replacements for it and the supercharger.

The other side of the coin is...
It's older engine now if they keep it as is...
It's got no new technology compared to the 3v
but..they could update it.

They need some good oomph to compete,
espeically around that time frame the LS3 will be out.

Jack Frost

Ford won't be around for this '09 to make it to market.

How's that for speculation?

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 19, 2006, 2:03 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ford won't be around for this '09 to make it to market.

How's that for speculation?
[/b][/quote]
Mr. Negative.

FordFun

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 19, 2006, 5:03 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ford won't be around for this '09 to make it to market.

How's that for speculation?
[/b][/quote]

I have been wondering at what point Ford becomes no longer viable. I am sure
there's a market share point that is too low that Ford can't sustain it's legacy costs.
I just fired off an email to the autoextremist editors and I'll see if they reply.

TJ4Cam

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 19, 2006, 5:03 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ford won't be around for this '09 to make it to market.

How's that for speculation?
[/b][/quote]

Shame on YOU! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nono.gif[/img]

conv_stang

ford will never go away. cant say they wont get bought out by like toyota or something. but the ford brand name still carries alot of weight. and 2006 isnt too early to start the hype. this site started in like 3 years before the 05 came out and look at the buzz this site alone built up. ford got the 05 right, and the 09 will be a incrimental step up just like each remodel. 98-99, 04-05

MustangFanatic

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(exarkun @ February 19, 2006, 3:16 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
... I am camping for a 2009 for various reasons but what will break my hopes is if they continue to use superchargers for extra power.

I really want to buy a 2009 Mustang, I really want it nautrally asperated, I really want "an affordable" 2nd generation Boss 429.....[/b][/quote]

I agree, I know I'm waiting to see what the '09 brings in the SE department (read: BOSS!) which must have naturally aspirated horsepower. The article simply summarizes the current thinking regarding the redesign. However, at this point, it's all conjecture. Personally, I'd love to see all or most of what is outlined included in the '09, bolder styling, IRS (I know I'm a snob!) SE specific engines, upgraded interior materials and less focus on gimics such as MyColor. Basically an increased focus on what makes a Mustang a Mustang, fun to drive affordable performance with SE models for certain segments such as Mach I for the street/strip set and a Boss for the road racing contingent.

I don't see Ford changing the std GT engine other than to make a mild upgrade in HP while the king of the hill Shelby/Cobra engine has arrived in the '07 GT500. We can expect a continued evolution of that engine as well in upcoming models including the SVT variant in '09. The base V6 will become the corporate 3.5L with a few tweaks for the Mustang crowd. Therefore, Ford can devote it's very limited budget to developing an SE powerplant, preferrable a high winding naturally aspirated engine for the next Boss...of course I am biased by my own personal preferences... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]

instigator311

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 19, 2006, 5:03 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ford won't be around for this '09 to make it to market.

How's that for speculation?
[/b][/quote]

Ford, unlike GM, is still profitable, and considering how closely tied in the Ford family is with the company, I highly doubt they would ever sell out to a foreign company or let Ford die out. I read in a financial magazine this weekend that if things get bad enough Ford could go private. It would be expensive, but the money was calculated out and the numbers are quite doable for the Ford family. So I think a 2009 for Ford and the Mustang are a go.

exarkun

MustangFanatic ... yes I am there with you. I expect as much for the standard GT with mild HP boosts to keep it afforable and its numbers well out there. Maybe in 2009 you will see a sweet line up and that will be the peak of the availablity of SEs for all hearts and souls. Its Hurry up and Wait ... save your coins; I am already placing aside estimated monthly payments to hopefully pay for such a car in cash when the time comes. Weither that car is a New Boss or a Z06 is TBD at this point ... come on Ford, do it right!

Jack Frost

Whether Ford survives or not is something that should be hotly debated on this site.

Honestly, I just don't know what's going on in senior management.

It's 2006 and they're coming out with 'home runs' like the Lincoln Zephyr?

And judgement is still out if the '05 gen Mustangs are a long term success or not.

Yes, our beloved car was a big sales success. But there are many, like myself, that think the car should've had an IRS and 6-speed to attract new buyers. As it is, I think the big sales posted last year was 90% due to 'recycled' Mustang buyers.

The car's purpose was to bring in young buyers who would later trade-up to more premium Ford models. But what are they supposed to trade up too? A Lincoln Zephy?

Puh-lease.

Only time will tell if that vision is realized.

I suspect the margins on the Mustang are pretty thin...which leaves Ford as a One-Truck brand company.

And as fuel prices continue to escalate...and they will...that doesn't bode well for Ford.

It's tragic, really.

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 21, 2006, 1:09 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Whether Ford survives or not is something that should be hotly debated on this site.

Honestly, I just don't know what's going on in senior management.

It's 2006 and they're coming out with 'home runs' like the Lincoln Zephyr?

And judgement is still out if the '05 gen Mustangs are a long term success or not.

Yes, our beloved car was a big sales success. But there are many, like myself, that think the car should've had an IRS and 6-speed to attract new buyers. As it is, I think the big sales posted last year was 90% due to 'recycled' Mustang buyers.

The car's purpose was to bring in young buyers who would later trade-up to more premium Ford models. But what are they supposed to trade up too? A Lincoln Zephy?

Puh-lease.

Only time will tell if that vision is realized.

I suspect the margins on the Mustang are pretty thin...which leaves Ford as a One-Truck brand company.

And as fuel prices continue to escalate...and they will...that doesn't bode well for Ford.

It's tragic, really.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah, the Zephyr...or MKXLVIII...or whatever they're calling it this year, is an 'also-ran', and not a very good one at that. The interior is horrid; seems to be trying to ape '70s design cues - which is most certainly NOT the style to emulate in a 21st century sedan. Ford needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something innovative and cutting edge. It's the only way to draw attention away from the imports who basically OWN this market segment. Trying to build Toyota or Honda clones is a huge mistake for any North American automaker right now, cause people will just think, "Oh, look, honey, it's the new Ford Fuega XLT9. Looks an awful lot like a Honda Accord, except not quite as well finished or appointed."

North American automakers need to be marrying Japanese fit & finish with bold and exciting new American designs. The Mustang is awesome looking, but once again, it falls down on interior quality. I don't know any other automakers that use the hard plastics you find in the Stang - the same plastic my Craftsman toolkit carrying box is made from! Hardly automotive grade!

On the other hand, the new Edge looks FABULOUS! THAT'S the direction in which Ford needs to keep moving. Personally, I think they should kill Mercury (for the same reasons GM should kill Buick and Pontiac - too much brand confusion and competing with yourself) and concentrate on the core Ford brand...and on making Lincoln a TRUE Lexus/Acura/Cadillac/Audi/BMW competitor.

V10

We're getting off topic, but I test drove a Zephyr today (was considering one for the wife).

Overall the Zephyr was a dissappointment. While its ride was very comfortable, vibration & harshness were excellent, fit & finish was good and it handled reasonably well for a nose heavy FWD car, the dashboard is horrible, its rear end looks horible, it has that famous Ford 4x4 sitting on stilts look and it feels real cheap.

No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig.
In the case of the Zephyr, no matter how much satin nickel and maple wood you put on the interior of the Zephyr, at the end of the day all the Zephyr is, is a chromed up $20,000 econobox.

Jack Frost

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BC_Shelby @ February 21, 2006, 6:20 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
North American automakers need to be marrying Japanese fit & finish with bold and exciting new American designs. The Mustang is awesome looking, but once again, it falls down on interior quality. I don't know any other automakers that use the hard plastics you find in the Stang - the same plastic my Craftsman toolkit carrying box is made from! Hardly automotive grade!
[/b][/quote]

An interesting point.

Suppose the classic Mustang design, which is the most beautiful ever penned in my opinion, were of Japanese or German origin instead of American.

If it were in the hands of the Japanese or Germans, I'm absolutely certain the Mustang would be a world class car with true *international* demand.

Instead, as the car stands today it's only taken seriously in the US, and maybe Canada. Yes, it's for sale in Europe...but is really only sought after there as a curiosity.

And this is where, IMHO, Ford has failed miserably with the Mustang.

Ford had a gold mine legacy sitting there on a silver platter...and what's the best Ford could come up with? A car with a suspension fashioned after a horse carriage and the most gawd awful manual transmission I've ever laid hands too. I swear the 5-speed on my '90 Mustang GT was slicker than the box of rocks they dropped into the '05.

exarkun

ugh ... 100th post

There are some very important issues discussed here. I am married to a powerful car critic and her family have good bank to buy whatever car fits their fancy. We have an Audi, others have Lexus, Infiniti, Toyota ... errr non american.

I am the only American car owner in the bunch and I like to think I have picked my rides carefully. I Love the new mustang ( she even likes them ) but American Cars are simply boring. Yes the interior needs to be " more solid ". The car needs to feel bullet proof. Comparing the stick shift of a 1990 ( mine was a 1989 ) with a 2005 is fine ... I drove two manual 2005 mustangs ( V6 and V8 ) ... My 5.0 was well broken in so ... hard to judge there.

Ford, GM, Dodge ( and their redundant spin-offs ) need to devlier in 2008 and 2009. Brand confusion is horrible and the fat should be cut ... yes I know ... horribily off topic ... but the topic is sooo right to discuss and being in the 2009 Forum section just gives it some highlight.

So let me ask this to save the topic and save the 2009 Mustang.

For the massess ... the GT MSRP's for what? 25K? ... Leave it at that ( I am sure the body will be worked and some of the interior will be changed ). No IRS, no six speed, maybe a token 20 HP boost. The GT is a great car and affordable enough that owners can tweak them with mods to their desire.

Now lets talk business ... the Mach 1.

Here is where Ford can deliver us some real car for the money and it will probibly MSRP for over 30K. Install the IRS, Install the 6 Speed, agressive gearing. Leave the engine alone. Upgrade the interior, the electronics. Place the care and quailty of the look and feel of the car when you sit inside as if it was a nicely equipped 3 Series BMW or a Audi A4 ( or maybe a G35 coupe ) ... okay its a Euro / Japanese move ... but we know their cars are more pleasant to drive. Ford did a good job on the retro look ... I am sure the two worlds can be fused together. I think we are close to that; I am not looking for a Knight Rider here but a good step up to a new level.

To compete in street warfare ... offer power packages ( i mentioned this on another thread ). 4.6 standard, 5.4 upgrade ( no super charger ), 5.7 upgrade ( no super charger ) ... remember the 1969 mustang ( 351, 390, 428 for the Mach 1s ). The 5.7 could be a push with all the smog and fuel efficently problems around and budget issues on R&D.

Automatic transmission ... okay ... the triptonic, manu-matic may not be for the mustang, but offer an S mode ( Sport Mode ) for agressive shifting ... that would be good.

I will skip talking about the shelby and boss. I really want to focus on the idea of a new generation of Mach 1s. If you build a good number of 4.6L powered Mach 1s with the sixth gear or S mode automatic you create a higher tier muscle car but you keep it affordable.

Even if they did deliver a Kick Butt mustang ... it will take a lot more than a muscle to car the American Car Industry.

sigh

05SatinGT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 21, 2006, 7:09 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
An interesting point.

Suppose the classic Mustang design, which is the most beautiful ever penned in my opinion, were of Japanese or German origin instead of American.

If it were in the hands of the Japanese or Germans, I'm absolutely certain the Mustang would be a world class car with true *international* demand.

Instead, as the car stands today it's only taken seriously in the US, and maybe Canada. Yes, it's for sale in Europe...but is really only sought after there as a curiosity.

And this is where, IMHO, Ford has failed miserably with the Mustang.

Ford had a gold mine legacy sitting there on a silver platter...and what's the best Ford could come up with? A car with a suspension fashioned after a horse carriage and the most gawd awful manual transmission I've ever laid hands too. I swear the 5-speed on my '90 Mustang GT was slicker than the box of rocks they dropped into the '05.
[/b][/quote]

Sorry, but I really feel the Mustang and Ford is getting a bad rap here. Suppose it was Japenese or German?
That's easy -- it would be slower by at least a second and a half in the quarter mile and cost 40% more.
Higher quality?? It would likely be more refined and soulless = higher quality?? Not to me.
In Europe Ford markets the Focus RS for performance --- The Mustang is uniquely American and designed expressly for North America -- no apologies necessary!
Failed miserably? Ford gave you the best looking, fastest, highest quality $25000 car money can buy .. it is a tremendous effort and a tremendous value and a tremendous car.. period!!
Legacy ? Ford launched and marketed this car perfectly. It is the one thing they have done really right in the last 5 years!
The Zephyr -- I agree it's not a viable competitor to the Japanese or European cars.

But the Mustang is a true bright spot for the home team !