Those of you who dislike/hate the 2015
4/3/15 | 03:02 PM
#381
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From: Carnegie, PA
Not global, but not the same economic environment either. What were Camaro sales in 2005? How many Challengers sold in 2005? (Get the point--fewer consumer choices?) The economy was somewhat more robust in 2005 and 2006. Of course, you can spin it anyway you like. The first rule of journalism: Don't let facts get in the way of a good story.
The Camaro sales have never been great, except maybe compared to 2001 sales when GM sold less than 30K units. The 2005 Mustang topped 160,000 for the year. 2006 topped 166K. In contrast the gen5 Camaro has never booked over 100K for a year. Though sales have been better than the Mustang, GM had hoped that Camaro sales would approach the numbers generated by the retro-styled Mustang. To be fair, there was this thing called a recession that had something to do with sales of 2-door sports coupes over $30K slumping. Since 2010 the Camaro has never reached 7.5K per month on average, but hit over 7K several years. Respectable numbers for the segment, but not a volume seller by any measure.
Mustang's sales haven't been great of late either. In 2011 the sales were relatively anemic, under 71k units for the year. The Mustang came close to matching Camaro sales in 2012, averaging about 6.9k per month. The 2015 is averaging roughly 9.9K units per month, a pace that would easily pass the 100K barrier and, BTW Mustang sales have not even begun in Europe (not slated until June). Given the competition, and the current economy, it is a fairly dramatic increase for a niche model.
The Camaro sales have never been great, except maybe compared to 2001 sales when GM sold less than 30K units. The 2005 Mustang topped 160,000 for the year. 2006 topped 166K. In contrast the gen5 Camaro has never booked over 100K for a year. Though sales have been better than the Mustang, GM had hoped that Camaro sales would approach the numbers generated by the retro-styled Mustang. To be fair, there was this thing called a recession that had something to do with sales of 2-door sports coupes over $30K slumping. Since 2010 the Camaro has never reached 7.5K per month on average, but hit over 7K several years. Respectable numbers for the segment, but not a volume seller by any measure.
Mustang's sales haven't been great of late either. In 2011 the sales were relatively anemic, under 71k units for the year. The Mustang came close to matching Camaro sales in 2012, averaging about 6.9k per month. The 2015 is averaging roughly 9.9K units per month, a pace that would easily pass the 100K barrier and, BTW Mustang sales have not even begun in Europe (not slated until June). Given the competition, and the current economy, it is a fairly dramatic increase for a niche model.
4/3/15 | 03:12 PM
#382
Mach 1 Member
Joined: December 11, 2014
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There's only one test for the Mustang or any car for that matter. If it sells well enough to warrant keeping it in production it will stay in production. If sales drop so much that its cost prohibitive to keep building the car than it will come to an end. This is the only test that any car or tuck ever endures.
4/3/15 | 03:14 PM
#383
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From: Carnegie, PA
Oh I'm not looking to restart the 50th Anniversary debate Rock. I was just making the point that a corporation (in this case Ford) will almost always spin facts or stories to make them look good despite whatever the truth might actually be. I don't trust anything they say and only half of what I see them do.
As far as I'm concerned, they're all just as guilty and untrustworthy IMHO..
4/3/15 | 03:24 PM
#384
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From: Carnegie, PA
There's only one test for the Mustang or any car for that matter. If it sells well enough to warrant keeping it in production it will stay in production. If sales drop so much that its cost prohibitive to keep building the car than it will come to an end. This is the only test that any car or tuck ever endures.
In other words I want to see the Mustang take back the # 1 spot from GM and kick the Camaro's butt
4/3/15 | 03:58 PM
#385
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Joined: December 11, 2014
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Your average cell phone bill in America is well over a hundred dollars. Anyone really think that it costs Verizon anywhere near a hundred dollars a month to provide service to your phone? No, probably more like $5 to $10 per customer at most.
The price on new cars is in the stratosphere. The other day I saw a brand new Chevy Colorado that was crew cab, two wheel drive with a 4 banger engine for 27 grand. Next to it was a full size Silverado, work truck, two wheel drive, regular cab with a V6. It was 28 grand. Ridiculous on both counts and this sort of thing is common across the new car spectrum. They insist they aren't making any money. Yeah right.
So I'm well aware that it's not just Ford. I don't put any stock in these corporations as they plead poverty to the American people and put billions in the bank every quarter. By extension I also don't put any stock in most of the claims they make because it's all about marketing and perception and not about reality.
Last edited by 3point7; 4/3/15 at 05:58 PM.
4/3/15 | 07:42 PM
#386
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From: Carnegie, PA
No argument there. You take our internet for instance. In America we pay more for internet access than any developed nation and yet we have the slowest and worst internet of any developed nation. Yet the internet providers insist that their product is the greatest thing and state of the art and blah blah blah.
The price on new cars is in the stratosphere. The other day I saw a brand new Chevy Colorado that was crew cab, two wheel drive with a 4 banger engine for 27 grand. Next to it was a full size Silverado, work truck, two wheel drive, regular cab with a V6. It was 28 grand. Ridiculous on both counts and this sort of thing is common across the new car spectrum. They insist they aren't making any money. Yeah right.
Heck no two wheel drive truck is worth nearly 30k whether it's a 4 banger or 6 cyl.. That's why they're called work trucks and not SUV's for god sake 
So I'm well aware that it's not just Ford. I don't put any stock in these corporations as they plead poverty to the American people and put billions in the bank every quarter. By extension I also don't put any stock in most of the claims they make because it's all about marketing and perception and not about reality.
4/3/15 | 07:46 PM
#387
The 2005 Camaro sales were down right pitiful especially compared to the 2005 Mustang. Of course being that Camaro didn't exist back in 2005 may have something to do with the lack of sales but why debate over such a minor detail. Ha ha ha.
If those recent sales numbers are for U.S sales only then that's great. Glad to see Ford is doing well with the new 2015 design. It hasn't caught on YET to the Philadelphia/Baltimore/Washington DC metro area because I hardly see any. Heck I drove from Maryland to Virgina down the I-95 corridor today and didn't see one new 2015 mustang.
I did see today plenty of Corvettes, S197 models, Camaro models, BMW models out the a$$ but not one 2015 model. I'm sure it will catch on soon enough.
If those recent sales numbers are for U.S sales only then that's great. Glad to see Ford is doing well with the new 2015 design. It hasn't caught on YET to the Philadelphia/Baltimore/Washington DC metro area because I hardly see any. Heck I drove from Maryland to Virgina down the I-95 corridor today and didn't see one new 2015 mustang.
I did see today plenty of Corvettes, S197 models, Camaro models, BMW models out the a$$ but not one 2015 model. I'm sure it will catch on soon enough.
I saw a good variety of 2010+ and 2015 Mustangs on my drive to and from Charlotte on I-77 last weekend. That is to say, this early in the model year, the fact I can compare the number of S550s to the number of S197s is a pretty significant impact, I think.
4/4/15 | 06:51 AM
#389
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
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A number of comments distilled down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". But I have read other comments along the lines that with a brand new platform, they expected a more radical change in the design. I'll reserve judgement until I see the car "in the flesh". (It's hard to tell from photos, and maybe it's just me, but I can't recall a time when I thought that the two cars looked more alike.)
I can't help but wonder if GM did themselves a favor with the move to a smaller lighter car. (FCA has found the formula for success with the Challenger by staying big, and offering ungodly horsepower.) Losing weight should do wonders for performance. However, though the Holden Commodore platform wasn't light, it did allow the Camaro to carry a favorable weight distribution, and the Z/28 proved it could be an excellent basis for a track car. But, the negatives on the Gen5 Camaro--poor visibility, cramped (almost claustrophobic) interior, seem to have been carried forward in the new design. I am sure the Bowtie Faithful will embrace the car--just not too sure about the rest of the buying public.
4/4/15 | 01:18 PM
#390
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From: Carnegie, PA
Agreed--it is going to be interesting. Initial reactions to photos remind me of the early debate over the new Mustang. Like the Mustang, where some fans were relieved to see an evolutionary design and some were disappointed that the new platform didn't receive a more radical design; the new Camaro seems to generate the same kind of response.
A number of comments distilled down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". But I have read other comments along the lines that with a brand new platform, they expected a more radical change in the design. I'll reserve judgement until I see the car "in the flesh". (It's hard to tell from photos, and maybe it's just me, but I can't recall a time when I thought that the two cars looked more alike.)
A number of comments distilled down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". But I have read other comments along the lines that with a brand new platform, they expected a more radical change in the design. I'll reserve judgement until I see the car "in the flesh". (It's hard to tell from photos, and maybe it's just me, but I can't recall a time when I thought that the two cars looked more alike.)
I can't help but wonder if GM did themselves a favor with the move to a smaller lighter car. (FCA has found the formula for success with the Challenger by staying big, and offering ungodly horsepower.) Losing weight should do wonders for performance. However, though the Holden Commodore platform wasn't light, it did allow the Camaro to carry a favorable weight distribution, and the Z/28 proved it could be an excellent basis for a track car. But, the negatives on the Gen5 Camaro--poor visibility, cramped (almost claustrophobic) interior, seem to have been carried forward in the new design. I am sure the Bowtie Faithful will embrace the car--just not too sure about the rest of the buying public.
Despite the new cars 200 lb weight reduction and slightly shorter wheelbase.. From a visual point of view, I can't really say this new Alpha based Camaro has evolved from the outgoing 2015 model at all.. Perhaps as you said the bowtie faithful will embrace it, but I know for a fact that I sure won't
At any rate, IMHO the Mustang will do just fine in the sales dept and will do much better over this new Camaro
Last edited by m05fastbackGT; 4/4/15 at 01:20 PM.
4/6/15 | 08:16 PM
#391
Mach 1 Member
Joined: June 22, 2013
Posts: 577
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From: the beautiful "Shenandoah Valley of Virginia"
Well, when the "Wife Unit" and I looked at the 2015 Mustang for the first time at Charlotte back in April 2014 up there on that turntable, we weren't at all blown away by it's looks.
With time and a few trips through dealers lots, looking at various 2015s on the ground, the colors, angles ..... I'm gonna say there could be a S550 in our future "down the road".
Likely we'll keep the '08 too though as we love it.
I can say that there is likely no new late model Camaros, Challengers, or Vette's in that future. The Camaros are "ugly" to be kind about it, the Challengers look "OK" I guess, and I was a MOPAR fanatic back in the '60s and '70s .... but the Challenger just does not "trip my trigger" ..... not like the original did. I must add, about "Vettes" ...... I loved them when building models as a kid, they have never done a lot for me once I grew up.
The only Mustangs that I never really took a liking to were the '74-'78s ..... just never got there.
With time and a few trips through dealers lots, looking at various 2015s on the ground, the colors, angles ..... I'm gonna say there could be a S550 in our future "down the road".
Likely we'll keep the '08 too though as we love it.
I can say that there is likely no new late model Camaros, Challengers, or Vette's in that future. The Camaros are "ugly" to be kind about it, the Challengers look "OK" I guess, and I was a MOPAR fanatic back in the '60s and '70s .... but the Challenger just does not "trip my trigger" ..... not like the original did. I must add, about "Vettes" ...... I loved them when building models as a kid, they have never done a lot for me once I grew up.
The only Mustangs that I never really took a liking to were the '74-'78s ..... just never got there.
Last edited by tbear853; 4/6/15 at 08:26 PM.
4/6/15 | 09:09 PM
#392
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From: Carnegie, PA
Well, when the "Wife Unit" and I looked at the 2015 Mustang for the first time at Charlotte back in April 2014 up there on that turntable, we weren't at all blown away by it's looks.
With time and a few trips through dealers lots, looking at various 2015s on the ground, the colors, angles ..... I'm gonna say there could be a S550 in our future "down the road".
Likely we'll keep the '08 too though as we love it.
I can say that there is likely no new late model Camaros, Challengers, or Vette's in that future. The Camaros are "ugly" to be kind about it, the Challengers look "OK" I guess, and I was a MOPAR fanatic back in the '60s and '70s .... but the Challenger just does not "trip my trigger" ..... not like the original did. I must add, about "Vettes" ...... I loved them when building models as a kid, they have never done a lot for me once I grew up.
The only Mustangs that I never really took a liking to were the '74-'78s ..... just never got there.
With time and a few trips through dealers lots, looking at various 2015s on the ground, the colors, angles ..... I'm gonna say there could be a S550 in our future "down the road".
Likely we'll keep the '08 too though as we love it.
I can say that there is likely no new late model Camaros, Challengers, or Vette's in that future. The Camaros are "ugly" to be kind about it, the Challengers look "OK" I guess, and I was a MOPAR fanatic back in the '60s and '70s .... but the Challenger just does not "trip my trigger" ..... not like the original did. I must add, about "Vettes" ...... I loved them when building models as a kid, they have never done a lot for me once I grew up.
The only Mustangs that I never really took a liking to were the '74-'78s ..... just never got there.
On the other hand however, I was instantly blown away when I saw the 2005 Mustang for the very first time and still am even 10 years later and like you and your wife, I love my 06 just as much as you both love your 08
4/7/15 | 10:29 PM
#394
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From: Carnegie, PA
4/8/15 | 01:16 PM
#396
Shelby GT350 Member
Joined: May 31, 2013
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From: Indianapolis
Mechanically, the car is great. V8, rear drive, IRS, less weight than the Camaro or Challenger, 6 speed transmission.
Just the exterior is the problem. I think the roofline, length of the front, side profile, fenders, and rear look great. It's just that the front leaves much to be desired and is too conservative and doesn't match the rest of the car. Once Ford freshens the car in a few years (like they did with the 2010's), I think the car will look MUCH better and convert a LOT of the haters into S550 enthusiasts!!
Just the exterior is the problem. I think the roofline, length of the front, side profile, fenders, and rear look great. It's just that the front leaves much to be desired and is too conservative and doesn't match the rest of the car. Once Ford freshens the car in a few years (like they did with the 2010's), I think the car will look MUCH better and convert a LOT of the haters into S550 enthusiasts!!
4/8/15 | 01:45 PM
#397
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: March 7, 2010
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From: Texas
4/8/15 | 01:53 PM
#398
Shelby GT350 Member
Joined: May 31, 2013
Posts: 2,151
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From: Indianapolis
4/8/15 | 01:56 PM
#399
Shelby GT350 Member
Joined: May 31, 2013
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From: Indianapolis
From what I can tell, it does appear the negatives from the Gen5 you mentioned have most definitely carried over in the new design if you really consider this as a new design at all lol. As for myself, I look at it as more of a re-fresh than a complete all new design.. Think of it as similar with the re-fresh that took place in 2010 for the Mustang..
Despite the new cars 200 lb weight reduction and slightly shorter wheelbase.. From a visual point of view, I can't really say this new Alpha based Camaro has evolved from the outgoing 2015 model at all.. Perhaps as you said the bowtie faithful will embrace it, but I know for a fact that I sure won't
Despite the new cars 200 lb weight reduction and slightly shorter wheelbase.. From a visual point of view, I can't really say this new Alpha based Camaro has evolved from the outgoing 2015 model at all.. Perhaps as you said the bowtie faithful will embrace it, but I know for a fact that I sure won't
4/8/15 | 05:06 PM
#400
Mach 1 Member
Joined: December 11, 2014
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Personally I'm not a fan of the new Camaro. I drove a 2014 model before I bought my Mustang and while it did have good power and good handling the interior is poorly done. The speedometer and tachometer are tiny and I felt like I had to really concentrate on the speedo to see how fast I was going as opposed to being able to just glance down and see it. There is acres of wasted space on the dash and the design is not at all pleasing to the eye. The biggest complaint I have are the terrible blind spots on the car. On a less note the trunk design made getting things in an out of the trunk a chore because of the small and high mounted trunk opening. Just not worth the money, but then again most new cars are not worth the money in my opinion.