Motortrend Head to Head vs. Camaro 1LE
10/27/14, 08:04 AM
#121
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I think the moral of the story is that Ford did not put out a track ready package for the GT like Chevy has done with the Camaro. The PP on the GT is a joke compared to the 1LE package. If for everyday driving then I would suggest a normal Camaro SS vs a normal GT, that is more of an apples to apples comparison.
You will find that most S197 owners are upset about is that the styling went from American Muscle to European Exotic. Camaro looks American no matter how ugly it may seem to some. Another reason S197 owners might be upset is that there is no real significant improvements. We wanted to see something spectacular for the 50th model year of one of the most amazing car names ever to have existed. We feel disappointed with the little performance gain and styling.
You will find that most S197 owners are upset about is that the styling went from American Muscle to European Exotic. Camaro looks American no matter how ugly it may seem to some. Another reason S197 owners might be upset is that there is no real significant improvements. We wanted to see something spectacular for the 50th model year of one of the most amazing car names ever to have existed. We feel disappointed with the little performance gain and styling.
engine components from the Boss 302, standard on ALL GTs
IRS and upgraded front suspension
vastly better interior design and materials
backup camera standard
improved stance and better wheel gap
line lock and track apps standard on all GTs
more usable trunk opening
push-button start with touch open doors and trunk
improved reporting for the TPMS system
quick-access drive mode settings on all premium models
better shifter and transmission
etc...
It drives me insane that we're getting a base GT with PP that outperforms the outgoing special edition Boss 302 on the track, and people are *****ing that it's not enough.
Last edited by IndustryLeech; 10/27/14 at 08:06 AM.
10/27/14, 08:34 AM
#122
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While yes that's true, you normally don't want to be benchmarking yourself. This review doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't track my car, but it is going to be my DD. And sadly there aren't even any twisty roads by where I live so better around turns, as much as I like it, also don't really factor in. So I get a car that is just as fast at the stop light rallies nobody ever has, that looks better and I can see out of. Works for me.
10/27/14, 08:41 AM
#123
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How does it outperform Boss 302 again?? Did I miss something? Where is that article? What I read said that the Boss 302 is still the best Mustang ever. Not the 2015 PP
10/27/14, 08:48 AM
#124
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The results speak for themselves during track testing, the 2015 Mustang GT with performance package consistently beat the lap times of the 2012-2013 Mustang Boss 302...
I could find more sources, but I'm heading into work.
10/27/14, 11:43 AM
#125
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On the figure eight course, the car and its fancy new IRS suspension put down a time of 24.7 seconds at an average of 0.84g. Thats quicker than the last Mustang GT (25.0 seconds at 0.77 g average) and is also better than the track-focused Mustang Boss 302, which did it in 24.7 seconds at an average of 0.78 g.
The results speak for themselves during track testing, the 2015 Mustang GT with performance package consistently beat the lap times of the 2012-2013 Mustang Boss 302...
I could find more sources, but I'm heading into work.
The results speak for themselves during track testing, the 2015 Mustang GT with performance package consistently beat the lap times of the 2012-2013 Mustang Boss 302...
I could find more sources, but I'm heading into work.
I would LOVE to see a 2015 GT PP against a 2013 Boss 302LS. Or at least find a lap time for 2013 Boss around Streets of Willow with Randy P. behind the wheel. That way it's apples to apples.
10/27/14, 12:00 PM
#126
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Yeah, coming from Ford PR .. that's kind of like quoting Fox News on the effects of Republican policy, or CNN about Democrat policy. The thing is I don't think the independent car magazine testing collaborates this story.
I would LOVE to see a 2015 GT PP against a 2013 Boss 302LS. Or at least find a lap time for 2013 Boss around Streets of Willow with Randy P. behind the wheel. That way it's apples to apples.
I would LOVE to see a 2015 GT PP against a 2013 Boss 302LS. Or at least find a lap time for 2013 Boss around Streets of Willow with Randy P. behind the wheel. That way it's apples to apples.
10/27/14, 12:02 PM
#127
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...?src=soc_fcbks
"The Z/28 was developed from the jump to work with the mighty Pirelli P Zero Trofeo Rs, and it shows. GM claims that the Pirellis generate so much grip that early prototypes experienced slippage around the 19-inch wheels during braking. "
I think you missed the point he was trying to make.... by a lot.
He's questioning why MotorTrend is comparing the (Boss 302 equivalent) Camaro 1LE to the (Non-Boss) Mustang GT. Instead, it should be the regular Camaro SS to the Mustang GT.
And before people say, "well it's the track pack!" I think we all know that it isn't a track ready car like the Boss 302 and 1LE are supposed to be. It's supposed to be a performance minded GT for people who plan to use the performance aspect of the car.
During the S197 years, it seemed the layout was:
Mustang GT......................Camaro SS
Mustang GT/TP.................----------
Mustang Boss 302.............Camaro 1LE
Mustang Boss 302-S..........Camaro Z/28
Mustang GT500.................Camaro ZL1
I do not think the Track pack is meant to (or obviously can) compete with the 1LE.
Hec, to me, if this comparison is valid, then why not compare the GT/TP to the ZL1 right now?
The current Mustang's most track ready car to Camaro's most track ready car!? That sounds right... right?
Edit: Or perhaps I've given Ford too much credit and the Track Pack is supposed to be the equivalent of the 1LE and Ford has just fallen on their faces... (primarily with wheels, tires, and suspension)
He's questioning why MotorTrend is comparing the (Boss 302 equivalent) Camaro 1LE to the (Non-Boss) Mustang GT. Instead, it should be the regular Camaro SS to the Mustang GT.
And before people say, "well it's the track pack!" I think we all know that it isn't a track ready car like the Boss 302 and 1LE are supposed to be. It's supposed to be a performance minded GT for people who plan to use the performance aspect of the car.
During the S197 years, it seemed the layout was:
Mustang GT......................Camaro SS
Mustang GT/TP.................----------
Mustang Boss 302.............Camaro 1LE
Mustang Boss 302-S..........Camaro Z/28
Mustang GT500.................Camaro ZL1
I do not think the Track pack is meant to (or obviously can) compete with the 1LE.
Hec, to me, if this comparison is valid, then why not compare the GT/TP to the ZL1 right now?
The current Mustang's most track ready car to Camaro's most track ready car!? That sounds right... right?
Edit: Or perhaps I've given Ford too much credit and the Track Pack is supposed to be the equivalent of the 1LE and Ford has just fallen on their faces... (primarily with wheels, tires, and suspension)
http://www.lsxtv.com/features/car-fe...-track-camaro/
"Around the 2.9 mile test loop, Chevy compared the Z/28 to some interesting benchmarks its siblings, the 1LE and ZL1, and its arch enemies, the Mustang GT500 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca. Interestingly, the car with the most power, the GT500, also posted the slowest lap time, clocking a 1:59.97. The Laguna Seca did a bit better, running a 1:59.05, followed by the 1LE at 1:58.85. Despite the intensely technical nature of the test track, the ZL1 was still able to use its superior horsepower compared to the 1LE to run a faster 1:56.58, but it was the Z/28 that delivered the best time at a mere 1:53.71."
I presume you're talking about a 2015 here because I doubt my SRA TP car rides better on regular streets than an IRS Camaro. I do agree that with the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times you are getting more of what you would see if you actually took a chance and raced a 1LE stop light to stop light. It's a drivers race.
10/27/14, 12:35 PM
#128
Also the 2015 Performance Pack looks to be a pretty good bang for your buck performer on that track. If you just want a race car buy the 2015 PP in base form and then upgrade the suspension and tires.
10/27/14, 12:39 PM
#129
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Something curious I've noticed...
24th fastest was '12 Mustang GT 5.0
25th fastest was '12 Boss 203 LS at 0.4s slower??
But then you look at the driver. Randy in a regular 5.0 is faster than this other driver in a Boss 302. I think Randy could get 2 more seconds out of a Boss 302. Randy managed 1:25.77 in a 2013 GT TP, so I'm sure he can push the 2013 Boss 302 LS a lot harder. All he has to do is make up another 1.4s to beat the S550. To me that would be a LOT, but I think a pro like Randy could do it.
10/27/14, 10:13 PM
#130
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Both are good cars, but the interior of the new mustang blows the camaro out of the park by far! Love the look of the new mustangs as well. If I wanted a track car I would make it to where I like it anyways, so I really don't care to much about how to comes out of the factory.
10/27/14, 10:56 PM
#131
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A couple of things jump out at me here. The 2010 GT500 was 4 seconds faster than the 2013 GT500. Was the 2010 suspension, brakes and tires that much better than the 2013 or was that a driver mod?
Also the 2015 Performance Pack looks to be a pretty good bang for your buck performer on that track. If you just want a race car buy the 2015 PP in base form and then upgrade the suspension and tires.
Also the 2015 Performance Pack looks to be a pretty good bang for your buck performer on that track. If you just want a race car buy the 2015 PP in base form and then upgrade the suspension and tires.
10/29/14, 09:10 AM
#132
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Despite the soft chassis tuning on the 2015 PP car the chops are there. The S550 is going to put the Boss on the trailer when Ford finally gets serious about tuning the suspension on the car.
10/29/14, 10:56 AM
#133
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I came pretty close to buying a 1LE last year instead of my Mustang. I did some work on the 1LEs and I'm well aware it is better suited for track days than the Mustang. But there were 2 things that swayed me:
1) 1LE was ~$4000 more than my 2014 GT TP
2) The cost of upkeep on a 4000lb track car (brakes, tires etc.) was going to be too high in a long run
Plus you still can't see a thing from a Camaro anyway
1) 1LE was ~$4000 more than my 2014 GT TP
2) The cost of upkeep on a 4000lb track car (brakes, tires etc.) was going to be too high in a long run
Plus you still can't see a thing from a Camaro anyway
EXACTLY!!!!
I was waiting for someone to say this very thing!
Might be tighter around the track but come on, 99% of the time, the car is on the road being driven around outside of the track. and the mustang is just that much better to be inside of, driving. $h_tty blind spots and how blah the interior kept me from buying it.
Last edited by JoeMidnight; 10/29/14 at 11:05 AM.
10/29/14, 07:29 PM
#134
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EXACTLY!!!! I was waiting for someone to say this very thing! Might be tighter around the track but come on, 99% of the time, the car is on the road being driven around outside of the track. and the mustang is just that much better to be inside of, driving. $h_tty blind spots and how blah the interior kept me from buying it.
10/29/14, 07:31 PM
#135
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10/30/14, 03:25 PM
#136
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Laserred 38,
I really feel your pain here, bro. When I bought my '08, there were lots of imperfections and things I wanted to fix. But you can't give up. You do have a really nice Mustang, and a much better one overall than those of us who still have '05-'09's.
And I'll tell you something, if you think all these problems would have been avoided with a 2015, that's a large bit of wishful thinking! The first model year of any car is the time when you're MOST likely to have quality control issues, defects, computer bugs, etc. Even the 2016's will have problems. In my opinion, Ford didn't get the S197 right until 2008, and even then there were issues that needed to be corrected for Job 2.
So look, you don't have bad mojo. You have a car with some physical problems that simply need to be corrected, and I sense that if the creaks and rattles were fixed, you'd be okay. As far as the power goes, you might want to think about an aftermarket tune that gives you more torque down low, but that may void your warranty. Does Ford Racing have something?
But with the creaks and rattles, that's something you just need to use your warranty on, like others have suggested. If a dealership gives you problems, go on to the next one. If they all throw static your way, see if you can find a reputable body shop, the best one in your area you can find. Have them look at the car and see if they can diagnose where the problems are. Even if they can't, they may be able to recommend a top-notch mechanic who can.
And then, take Ford to small claims court over their lack of warranty support. They may not even show up if all your asking for is what you paid out to "fix" your car. Just make sure you keep all your receipts, including the ones where the dealership says "Could not duplicate the problem".
I know this is a huge hassle, and it's not something you should have to do, but trading the car in and taking THAT hit really just makes everything worse.
I really feel your pain here, bro. When I bought my '08, there were lots of imperfections and things I wanted to fix. But you can't give up. You do have a really nice Mustang, and a much better one overall than those of us who still have '05-'09's.
And I'll tell you something, if you think all these problems would have been avoided with a 2015, that's a large bit of wishful thinking! The first model year of any car is the time when you're MOST likely to have quality control issues, defects, computer bugs, etc. Even the 2016's will have problems. In my opinion, Ford didn't get the S197 right until 2008, and even then there were issues that needed to be corrected for Job 2.
So look, you don't have bad mojo. You have a car with some physical problems that simply need to be corrected, and I sense that if the creaks and rattles were fixed, you'd be okay. As far as the power goes, you might want to think about an aftermarket tune that gives you more torque down low, but that may void your warranty. Does Ford Racing have something?
But with the creaks and rattles, that's something you just need to use your warranty on, like others have suggested. If a dealership gives you problems, go on to the next one. If they all throw static your way, see if you can find a reputable body shop, the best one in your area you can find. Have them look at the car and see if they can diagnose where the problems are. Even if they can't, they may be able to recommend a top-notch mechanic who can.
And then, take Ford to small claims court over their lack of warranty support. They may not even show up if all your asking for is what you paid out to "fix" your car. Just make sure you keep all your receipts, including the ones where the dealership says "Could not duplicate the problem".
I know this is a huge hassle, and it's not something you should have to do, but trading the car in and taking THAT hit really just makes everything worse.
10/30/14, 03:38 PM
#137
Legacy TMS Member
Laserred 38, I really feel your pain here, bro. When I bought my '08, there were lots of imperfections and things I wanted to fix. But you can't give up. You do have a really nice Mustang, and a much better one overall than those of us who still have '05-'09's. And I'll tell you something, if you think all these problems would have been avoided with a 2015, that's a large bit of wishful thinking! The first model year of any car is the time when you're MOST likely to have quality control issues, defects, computer bugs, etc. Even the 2016's will have problems. In my opinion, Ford didn't get the S197 right until 2008, and even then there were issues that needed to be corrected for Job 2. So look, you don't have bad mojo. You have a car with some physical problems that simply need to be corrected, and I sense that if the creaks and rattles were fixed, you'd be okay. As far as the power goes, you might want to think about an aftermarket tune that gives you more torque down low, but that may void your warranty. Does Ford Racing have something? But with the creaks and rattles, that's something you just need to use your warranty on, like others have suggested. If a dealership gives you problems, go on to the next one. If they all throw static your way, see if you can find a reputable body shop, the best one in your area you can find. Have them look at the car and see if they can diagnose where the problems are. Even if they can't, they may be able to recommend a top-notch mechanic who can. And then, take Ford to small claims court over their lack of warranty support. They may not even show up if all your asking for is what you paid out to "fix" your car. Just make sure you keep all your receipts, including the ones where the dealership says "Could not duplicate the problem". I know this is a huge hassle, and it's not something you should have to do, but trading the car in and taking THAT hit really just makes everything worse.
I'm not too worried about voiding the powertrain warranty, as I plan to supercharge eventually anyways. I'm considering the Track Key/Cal combo. We'll see...
10/30/14, 06:50 PM
#138
Legacy TMS Member
I agree that the S550 has untapped potential. The big question debated in this thread is IF Ford has it in them to finally get serious with the suspension. For the last 5 years (11-15) the answer has been no. And like you I hope that changes. I would LOVE to see an article about how the 2016 GT PP outperforms the 1LE.
They will after the S550 gets ***** slapped by the 2016 F-body. This seems to be Ford's SOP
11/3/14, 12:49 AM
#139
Cobra Member
My gripe with your statements is not that you prefer the looks of the S550. That's subjective and can't be evaluated in a measurable way.
My gripe is that you seem to ignore the fact that even though the S550 is slightly better at the track than the S197, the 2013 Boss 302 is still the handling champ, according to the same people who DO THIS FOR A LIVING.
I do track my Mustang. That's why I got a 2014 GT TP. So I am excited that the new Mustang is a slightly better track car. But I'm also disappointed about how little improvement the new car has over the old on the track. The S197 Boss 302 is still the way to go. And people who sing endless praises to the S550 for no good reason are what my gripe is about. Performance wise it is a better car on a road course. Marginally. Straight line it is marginally worse. That's it. Nothing else left to say.
My gripe is that you seem to ignore the fact that even though the S550 is slightly better at the track than the S197, the 2013 Boss 302 is still the handling champ, according to the same people who DO THIS FOR A LIVING.
I do track my Mustang. That's why I got a 2014 GT TP. So I am excited that the new Mustang is a slightly better track car. But I'm also disappointed about how little improvement the new car has over the old on the track. The S197 Boss 302 is still the way to go. And people who sing endless praises to the S550 for no good reason are what my gripe is about. Performance wise it is a better car on a road course. Marginally. Straight line it is marginally worse. That's it. Nothing else left to say.
11/3/14, 12:54 AM
#140
Cobra Member
There are certainly improvements made on the S550. I recognize that and I'm happy about it.
I like IRS, I like the new interior, the Boss like engine and the 15" 6 piston brakes. I know a S550 will be a little quicker around the tracks I frequent here in Michigan. I'm really looking forward to taking on one or two next summer to see first hand where it gains on my car.
The statements I continuously slam are things like:
1) This comparo was stacked in the Camaro's favor
2) The camaro won because GM spent more on marketing
3) The S550 is a huge leap forward for the Mustang. Also
Statements like that are simply not true, and while I hate to crash your mutual adoration party for the S550, facts are facts. Hard to ague with logic, though people still try.
If you want a car for drag racing, go with an 11-14 GT.
If you want a track car, go with the 15' 1LE Camaro.
Hard to say that about the Camaro but facts are facts.