Is tuning REALLY necessary?
12/29/11, 12:57 AM
#61
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Cai only require a tune when they come equipped with a larger maf. So your comment is false.
false again.
You will not need a tune for full exhaust or a cai with the stock maf. You will not have any drivability problems. O2 sensors control the a/f ratio. As long as you dont take them out your fine.
There is a cheating method of using spark plug foul protectors to keep the rear o2s from thowing a catalyst efficienctly codes. Pm me for any questions you may have.
false again.
You will not need a tune for full exhaust or a cai with the stock maf. You will not have any drivability problems. O2 sensors control the a/f ratio. As long as you dont take them out your fine.
There is a cheating method of using spark plug foul protectors to keep the rear o2s from thowing a catalyst efficienctly codes. Pm me for any questions you may have.
I never said exhaust needs a tune.
12/29/11, 02:55 AM
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12/29/11, 06:17 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by Flagstang
what cheap *** CAI runs the stock maf?
I never said exhaust needs a tune.And my bbk came with a new maf. But it was a factory sized and tuned maf.
12/29/11, 09:13 AM
#64
Bullitt Member
I just wanted to step in here and kinda put some of the mis-information to rest and see if we can help give some clarity. The more that the right information is out there, the better decisions people can make - especially when they're new to the hobby.
1.) The 2011+ Mustangs (GT/V6/Boss) all control air/fuel ratio via factory wideband sensors. Just because your air/fuel ratio at wide-open-throttle (WOT) seems to be okay after you add mods, doesn't mean that your fuel trims aren't having to work very hard in order to add or remove fuel from the mixture to correct it to what you're seeing. This is where a tune is crucial for aftermarket mods. There are no PCM differences between the GT/V6/Boss. (that matter in this discussion)
2.) 2011+'s, in my opinion, will require a tune for long-tube headers. Not only will you possibly run into P219A codes, you might run into more (explained below). Keep in mind (as I said above) that just because the air/fuel ratio at WOT looks good after you bolt those headers on, doesn't mean that the PCM is not having to adjust like crazy to meet that requirement. Adding long tube headers to any Mustang pre-2011 will require some work to let the computer know that the front oxygen sensors (upstream o2 sensors) have been moved further downstream and will not heat up as fast, switch as quickly, etc. There are things within the tune that we do to help them read properly in their new-found home, further away from the engine. If your front o2 sensors don't read correctly, it will have a negative impact on gas mileage, driveability and it will lead to check engine lights. Also, without a tune on a 2005-2010, for example, you'll get a P0133 and P0153 for "slow response" from the oxygen sensors. Then, if you go with any decent high-flow catalytic converter, you're going to throw P0420 and P0430 for "cat inefficiency", basically stating "these cats aren't doing their job". Off-road setups will have the same codes. You really need a tune on a long tube header setup from 2005+, you can get away with not having it on a 2004 and down - but you'd be very wise to let a calibrator work on the front 02's (even back to Fox Body). I guess this all comes down to your definition of "require"...
3.) Somewhere back in this thread was "an aftermarket MAF will not flow more than a stock one". Any CAI that you purchase for a 2005+ Mustang is going to use a larger, aftermarket MAF housing. This allows the CAI to flow better and pick up horsepower. The sensor/electronics itself might be the same, but the tube diameter has changed and this will require a calibration to tune the MAF to the new voltage/flow values. There are aftermarket CAI's that allow you to run no tune because they put a restriction inside the MAF sensor housing that skews it to read like stock. If you're talking about 2004-down, than yes - because most CAI's use the stock housing, a tune isn't 100% required - but we recommend it. Even with the MAF diameter the same, the CAI will flow more efficiently and pick up power - the fuel trims will still be thrown off in higher areas of the MAF calibration. It will remove restriction, and regardless whether you need to, you should tune any 04-down CAI. Have to? Not really. Should you? Absolutely.
4.) The 2011+ Mustangs all have cold air vents that come from the lower air dam/front bumper. Most aftermarket CAI's (the ones that we recommend, at least - Airaid, JLT, etc.) will come with a heat shield that re-uses that factory plumbing. A 2005-2010 Mustang doesn't need to be in the fenderwell to make power. There's actually only one manufacturer of superchargers for S197 3V's that goes into the fenderwell, and that's Kenne Bell. Even GT500's making 700-800RWHP have no issues with a CAI mounted behind the headlight in a factory location. Yes, 2004-down Mustangs should have a CAI that pulls from the fenderwell for best results, rather than a short-ram intake, but newer ones do not. The intake air temperatures on a 05+ without going into the fenderwell are just fine.
5.) There are few aftermarket cats that won't throw an occasional P0420 or P0430. If it's really cold and you get on it a little too hard... if it's a thursday... there are really tight tolerances for P0420 and P0430 on the 2011+'s, and even older Mustangs for that matter. Just be aware of it and know that you may have to resort to tuning the car to completely get rid of it. It's just annoying - but it doesn't hurt the operation of the vehicle.
6.) A second PCM would be convenient, but they're not like an older Mustang where you can swap them in and out. There's more to it now with VID block, different strategy codes, etc.
The only thing we didn't get into here was "Cat Temp Control". Cat Temp Control is a a function of the factory computer that calculates the temperature of the exhaust, and when it reaches a certain temperature value, it begins to add fuel to the mixture to cool down the cats because it assumes a lean condition. We won't get into that for the sake of this discussion, but an aftermarket tune should change values for cat temp control or completely remove it.
I hope this clears up alot of the confusion! The OP is going to be in good hands whether he decides to go with an aftermarket tune or not. OP, have you considered a Cold Air Intake and Tuner package with a good mail order calibration from someone like Bama or Brenspeed? We can tune the car based off of values that we developed on our own fleet of 10+ Mustangs. We spent countless hours on the dyno, at the track and on the street datalogging and refining our tunes to be the best available. You can be confident that we have the experience to tune your car to be safe and powerful - and we'll warranty our work!
Give us a shout or PM me if you have any questions at all or just want to talk tech - regardless whether you buy from AM/Bama or not. I'll keep an eye on this thread and field any questions that you have. Good luck!
1.) The 2011+ Mustangs (GT/V6/Boss) all control air/fuel ratio via factory wideband sensors. Just because your air/fuel ratio at wide-open-throttle (WOT) seems to be okay after you add mods, doesn't mean that your fuel trims aren't having to work very hard in order to add or remove fuel from the mixture to correct it to what you're seeing. This is where a tune is crucial for aftermarket mods. There are no PCM differences between the GT/V6/Boss. (that matter in this discussion)
2.) 2011+'s, in my opinion, will require a tune for long-tube headers. Not only will you possibly run into P219A codes, you might run into more (explained below). Keep in mind (as I said above) that just because the air/fuel ratio at WOT looks good after you bolt those headers on, doesn't mean that the PCM is not having to adjust like crazy to meet that requirement. Adding long tube headers to any Mustang pre-2011 will require some work to let the computer know that the front oxygen sensors (upstream o2 sensors) have been moved further downstream and will not heat up as fast, switch as quickly, etc. There are things within the tune that we do to help them read properly in their new-found home, further away from the engine. If your front o2 sensors don't read correctly, it will have a negative impact on gas mileage, driveability and it will lead to check engine lights. Also, without a tune on a 2005-2010, for example, you'll get a P0133 and P0153 for "slow response" from the oxygen sensors. Then, if you go with any decent high-flow catalytic converter, you're going to throw P0420 and P0430 for "cat inefficiency", basically stating "these cats aren't doing their job". Off-road setups will have the same codes. You really need a tune on a long tube header setup from 2005+, you can get away with not having it on a 2004 and down - but you'd be very wise to let a calibrator work on the front 02's (even back to Fox Body). I guess this all comes down to your definition of "require"...
3.) Somewhere back in this thread was "an aftermarket MAF will not flow more than a stock one". Any CAI that you purchase for a 2005+ Mustang is going to use a larger, aftermarket MAF housing. This allows the CAI to flow better and pick up horsepower. The sensor/electronics itself might be the same, but the tube diameter has changed and this will require a calibration to tune the MAF to the new voltage/flow values. There are aftermarket CAI's that allow you to run no tune because they put a restriction inside the MAF sensor housing that skews it to read like stock. If you're talking about 2004-down, than yes - because most CAI's use the stock housing, a tune isn't 100% required - but we recommend it. Even with the MAF diameter the same, the CAI will flow more efficiently and pick up power - the fuel trims will still be thrown off in higher areas of the MAF calibration. It will remove restriction, and regardless whether you need to, you should tune any 04-down CAI. Have to? Not really. Should you? Absolutely.
4.) The 2011+ Mustangs all have cold air vents that come from the lower air dam/front bumper. Most aftermarket CAI's (the ones that we recommend, at least - Airaid, JLT, etc.) will come with a heat shield that re-uses that factory plumbing. A 2005-2010 Mustang doesn't need to be in the fenderwell to make power. There's actually only one manufacturer of superchargers for S197 3V's that goes into the fenderwell, and that's Kenne Bell. Even GT500's making 700-800RWHP have no issues with a CAI mounted behind the headlight in a factory location. Yes, 2004-down Mustangs should have a CAI that pulls from the fenderwell for best results, rather than a short-ram intake, but newer ones do not. The intake air temperatures on a 05+ without going into the fenderwell are just fine.
5.) There are few aftermarket cats that won't throw an occasional P0420 or P0430. If it's really cold and you get on it a little too hard... if it's a thursday... there are really tight tolerances for P0420 and P0430 on the 2011+'s, and even older Mustangs for that matter. Just be aware of it and know that you may have to resort to tuning the car to completely get rid of it. It's just annoying - but it doesn't hurt the operation of the vehicle.
6.) A second PCM would be convenient, but they're not like an older Mustang where you can swap them in and out. There's more to it now with VID block, different strategy codes, etc.
The only thing we didn't get into here was "Cat Temp Control". Cat Temp Control is a a function of the factory computer that calculates the temperature of the exhaust, and when it reaches a certain temperature value, it begins to add fuel to the mixture to cool down the cats because it assumes a lean condition. We won't get into that for the sake of this discussion, but an aftermarket tune should change values for cat temp control or completely remove it.
I hope this clears up alot of the confusion! The OP is going to be in good hands whether he decides to go with an aftermarket tune or not. OP, have you considered a Cold Air Intake and Tuner package with a good mail order calibration from someone like Bama or Brenspeed? We can tune the car based off of values that we developed on our own fleet of 10+ Mustangs. We spent countless hours on the dyno, at the track and on the street datalogging and refining our tunes to be the best available. You can be confident that we have the experience to tune your car to be safe and powerful - and we'll warranty our work!
Give us a shout or PM me if you have any questions at all or just want to talk tech - regardless whether you buy from AM/Bama or not. I'll keep an eye on this thread and field any questions that you have. Good luck!
Last edited by AMChrisRose; 12/29/11 at 04:09 PM.
12/29/11, 09:58 AM
#65
Legacy TMS Member
4.) The 2011+ Mustangs all have cold air vents that come from the lower air dam/front bumper. Most aftermarket CAI's (the ones that we recommend, at least - Airaid, JLT, etc.) will come with a heat shield that re-uses that factory plumbing. A 2005-2010 Mustang doesn't need to be in the fenderwell to make power. There's actually only one manufacturer of superchargers for S197 3V's that goes into the fenderwell, and that's Kenne Bell. Even GT500's making 700-800RWHP have no issues with a CAI mounted behind the headlight in a factory location. Yes, 2004-down Mustangs should have a CAI that pulls from the fenderwell for best results, rather than a short-ram intake, but newer ones do not. The intake air temperatures on a 05+ without going into the fenderwell are just fine.
12/29/11, 11:48 AM
#66
Bullitt Member
Chris, I believe the 2010 3V V8 uses the same location for the airbox. Also, as mentioned above for the 2008-09 Bullitts, the air intake was designed similarly, in addition to having the hood blanket constructed so as to seal the open air box and get air in from the front underneath the hood.
12/29/11, 12:44 PM
#67
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Well, I am going to chime in here as well.
First of all, you should probably ask yourself what your objectives really are.
Why do you want the long tube headers? Is it a sound thing, or is it a performance thing? Soundwise, they are incredible. No doubt. This is probably the real reason I would install them. Bang for the buck, they are pretty poor. A good set tips the scales at around a grand, and the install is a freaking nightmare. I asked my guy if he would do it for me (since I don't consider it a driveway/jackstands job, although plenty do) and he told me he despised the job so much on the 2011 he put them in, that it would be a grand to install them. 2 grand for 15-20 RWHP does not compute. And, then, you WILL need a proper tune and the rest of the exhaust as well.
If it is only sound, look into the BBK shorties. From what I have read, they sound more headerlike than the stockers, and you can get by without a tune and without replacing the remainder of the exhaust components, if you don't want to.
There are plenty of guys running great numbers on the factory airbox. Deep into the 11's as a matter of fact. The gains come from the tune more than the CAI on these cars.
If you want more sound, you can get a very nice exhaust note without changing the headers. I have stock headers, an after-cat X pipe, no resonators and a Roush axle back and my car sounds incredible.
If you want more power with a warranty, look into BAMA tunes (but be prepared for Ford voiding your powertrain warranty) or look into the FRPP Pro-Cal tune. The Pro-Cal is less aggressive, but a nice tune. You can't make adjustments outside of tire size and gear ratio, but you can rest easier regarding warranty issues if you have installed by a dealer. With BAMA, the sky is the limit. Their waranty against engine failure is very attractive.
I have a Pro-Cal right now. However, I may go to BAMA down the road. I am happy at the moment and my car is very strong.
Hope this helps.
Mike
First of all, you should probably ask yourself what your objectives really are.
Why do you want the long tube headers? Is it a sound thing, or is it a performance thing? Soundwise, they are incredible. No doubt. This is probably the real reason I would install them. Bang for the buck, they are pretty poor. A good set tips the scales at around a grand, and the install is a freaking nightmare. I asked my guy if he would do it for me (since I don't consider it a driveway/jackstands job, although plenty do) and he told me he despised the job so much on the 2011 he put them in, that it would be a grand to install them. 2 grand for 15-20 RWHP does not compute. And, then, you WILL need a proper tune and the rest of the exhaust as well.
If it is only sound, look into the BBK shorties. From what I have read, they sound more headerlike than the stockers, and you can get by without a tune and without replacing the remainder of the exhaust components, if you don't want to.
There are plenty of guys running great numbers on the factory airbox. Deep into the 11's as a matter of fact. The gains come from the tune more than the CAI on these cars.
If you want more sound, you can get a very nice exhaust note without changing the headers. I have stock headers, an after-cat X pipe, no resonators and a Roush axle back and my car sounds incredible.
If you want more power with a warranty, look into BAMA tunes (but be prepared for Ford voiding your powertrain warranty) or look into the FRPP Pro-Cal tune. The Pro-Cal is less aggressive, but a nice tune. You can't make adjustments outside of tire size and gear ratio, but you can rest easier regarding warranty issues if you have installed by a dealer. With BAMA, the sky is the limit. Their waranty against engine failure is very attractive.
I have a Pro-Cal right now. However, I may go to BAMA down the road. I am happy at the moment and my car is very strong.
Hope this helps.
Mike
Last edited by mbreinin; 12/29/11 at 12:47 PM.
12/29/11, 02:02 PM
#68
Bullitt Member
Very fair review, and your info is spot-on. The short headers can go on with no changes to the tune, because the oxygen sensor is still in a location that is almost stock.
Long tube header install is a pain without a lift on any modular Mustang. It's not as bad as the 1996-2004, where you might as well drop the K-frame, but it's still a 4 hour job with a lift and you need to lift and lower the motor and move starter, etc. to get to what you need at different times. Not fun! I can see why he would want to charge a grand!
Very good post!
Long tube header install is a pain without a lift on any modular Mustang. It's not as bad as the 1996-2004, where you might as well drop the K-frame, but it's still a 4 hour job with a lift and you need to lift and lower the motor and move starter, etc. to get to what you need at different times. Not fun! I can see why he would want to charge a grand!
Very good post!
12/29/11, 04:11 PM
#71
Legacy TMS Member
Appreciate it!
12/29/11, 05:29 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by mbreinin
Well, I am going to chime in here as well.
First of all, you should probably ask yourself what your objectives really are.
Why do you want the long tube headers? Is it a sound thing, or is it a performance thing? Soundwise, they are incredible. No doubt. This is probably the real reason I would install them. Bang for the buck, they are pretty poor. A good set tips the scales at around a grand, and the install is a freaking nightmare. I asked my guy if he would do it for me (since I don't consider it a driveway/jackstands job, although plenty do) and he told me he despised the job so much on the 2011 he put them in, that it would be a grand to install them. 2 grand for 15-20 RWHP does not compute. And, then, you WILL need a proper tune and the rest of the exhaust as well.
If it is only sound, look into the BBK shorties. From what I have read, they sound more headerlike than the stockers, and you can get by without a tune and without replacing the remainder of the exhaust components, if you don't want to.
There are plenty of guys running great numbers on the factory airbox. Deep into the 11's as a matter of fact. The gains come from the tune more than the CAI on these cars.
If you want more sound, you can get a very nice exhaust note without changing the headers. I have stock headers, an after-cat X pipe, no resonators and a Roush axle back and my car sounds incredible.
If you want more power with a warranty, look into BAMA tunes (but be prepared for Ford voiding your powertrain warranty) or look into the FRPP Pro-Cal tune. The Pro-Cal is less aggressive, but a nice tune. You can't make adjustments outside of tire size and gear ratio, but you can rest easier regarding warranty issues if you have installed by a dealer. With BAMA, the sky is the limit. Their waranty against engine failure is very attractive.
I have a Pro-Cal right now. However, I may go to BAMA down the road. I am happy at the moment and my car is very strong.
Hope this helps.
Mike
First of all, you should probably ask yourself what your objectives really are.
Why do you want the long tube headers? Is it a sound thing, or is it a performance thing? Soundwise, they are incredible. No doubt. This is probably the real reason I would install them. Bang for the buck, they are pretty poor. A good set tips the scales at around a grand, and the install is a freaking nightmare. I asked my guy if he would do it for me (since I don't consider it a driveway/jackstands job, although plenty do) and he told me he despised the job so much on the 2011 he put them in, that it would be a grand to install them. 2 grand for 15-20 RWHP does not compute. And, then, you WILL need a proper tune and the rest of the exhaust as well.
If it is only sound, look into the BBK shorties. From what I have read, they sound more headerlike than the stockers, and you can get by without a tune and without replacing the remainder of the exhaust components, if you don't want to.
There are plenty of guys running great numbers on the factory airbox. Deep into the 11's as a matter of fact. The gains come from the tune more than the CAI on these cars.
If you want more sound, you can get a very nice exhaust note without changing the headers. I have stock headers, an after-cat X pipe, no resonators and a Roush axle back and my car sounds incredible.
If you want more power with a warranty, look into BAMA tunes (but be prepared for Ford voiding your powertrain warranty) or look into the FRPP Pro-Cal tune. The Pro-Cal is less aggressive, but a nice tune. You can't make adjustments outside of tire size and gear ratio, but you can rest easier regarding warranty issues if you have installed by a dealer. With BAMA, the sky is the limit. Their waranty against engine failure is very attractive.
I have a Pro-Cal right now. However, I may go to BAMA down the road. I am happy at the moment and my car is very strong.
Hope this helps.
Mike
12/29/11, 07:42 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by AMChrisRose
Very fair review, and your info is spot-on. The short headers can go on with no changes to the tune, because the oxygen sensor is still in a location that is almost stock.
Long tube header install is a pain without a lift on any modular Mustang. It's not as bad as the 1996-2004, where you might as well drop the K-frame, but it's still a 4 hour job with a lift and you need to lift and lower the motor and move starter, etc. to get to what you need at different times. Not fun! I can see why he would want to charge a grand!
Very good post!
12/29/11, 08:29 PM
#76
Bullitt Member
Originally Posted by Bmeline916
1k is retarded I got mine done for 400$ if anyone lives. Lose enough to Jackson ,ms let me know!
12/29/11, 10:35 PM
#77
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Originally Posted by AMChrisRose
We use to do them for $450 at the shop I worked at before. That was for long tubes and intermediates on a 2005+.
12/30/11, 08:09 AM
#78
Bullitt Member
I thought it was kinda steep, LOL - but thanks! Our tech did tons of them, so he could literally do them in 3-4 hours, so it should have been even cheaper, in my opinion (like what you paid is a really, really fair deal). I guess the market price is like $500-600 bucks for labor, though. That's crazy! The 1996-2004, I could see being closer to fair.
You got a great deal @ $400!
You got a great deal @ $400!
12/30/11, 08:20 AM
#79
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Well, in all fairness my guy really hated the job and was probably quoting me an abusive rate to discourage me from asking him to install the headers. LOL. I could probably twist his arm and get it done much cheaper, especially if I volunteered to help him with the install.
I have been seriously considering a set of the BBK shorties for mine. Longtubes would be nice, but they come with a host of side issues that make them less attractive to me. The BBKs will give me a small power increase, and a different sound, which is enough to satisfy me. However, it is not a mod that is high up on my list right now.
Mike
I have been seriously considering a set of the BBK shorties for mine. Longtubes would be nice, but they come with a host of side issues that make them less attractive to me. The BBKs will give me a small power increase, and a different sound, which is enough to satisfy me. However, it is not a mod that is high up on my list right now.
Mike
12/30/11, 10:08 AM
#80
Bullitt Member
Well, in all fairness my guy really hated the job and was probably quoting me an abusive rate to discourage me from asking him to install the headers. LOL. I could probably twist his arm and get it done much cheaper, especially if I volunteered to help him with the install.
I have been seriously considering a set of the BBK shorties for mine. Longtubes would be nice, but they come with a host of side issues that make them less attractive to me. The BBKs will give me a small power increase, and a different sound, which is enough to satisfy me. However, it is not a mod that is high up on my list right now.
Mike
I have been seriously considering a set of the BBK shorties for mine. Longtubes would be nice, but they come with a host of side issues that make them less attractive to me. The BBKs will give me a small power increase, and a different sound, which is enough to satisfy me. However, it is not a mod that is high up on my list right now.
Mike
Good luck and either way, hit me up if you ever have anything you need!