Len

[QUOTE=sqidd;6949719]Yes, or I wouldn't have posted my thoughts./QUOTE]

Can you be more specific? I've been considering this mod for some time and it would be helpful to see some numbers. Edelbrock has been making induction systems since before the majority of the people in this forum were born so I assume they know what they're doing. I would think that their intercooler is designed to provide the temps necessary to meet its rated power at relatively low boost. Maybe another intercooler is necessary if you're making crazy power but that's a different issue. I'm not pushing Edelbrock, I'm just looking for information that will be helpful in my decision when/if I decide to go forced induction.

SpectreH

I don't take anything you point out as argumentative. You make a good point on IATs. Provided the track apps temp is accurate, I saw a drop in IATs after installing the ProCharger, in spite of the air filter being right above the driver's side header. I attribute this to the intercooler. However, all of that heat dissipated by the intercooler heats up the air passing through the AC condenser and radiator. I have noticed in city traffic, the AC isn't quite as cool as it once was (still cools well enough, but I noticed the difference), and CHTs are 10-15 degrees higher as well.

I always watch the temps on my car. No hard driving until the oil and transmission temps are up in the normal range.

sqidd

Something I discovered recently and was always interested in:

IAT's as they are sampled on Centri blowers is a little mis-understood.....and can't be compared to positive displacement blowers (PD) because they are not apples to apples.

Centri blowers continue to use the IAT sensor in the MAF. This doesn't give a true IAT reading because the MAF is so far up stream of the runner right before the intake port (head). What you see with the Centri car is the IAT before it has had a chance to heat up from traveling through all of the piping, tubing, runners, etc it goes through before it goes into the cylinder. And it picks up quite a bit more heat that you would think. Only recently was I able to verify this when someone I know put a second IAT sensor in their intake runner right before the intake port. Under normal driving their IAT2 (right before intake port) was 30deg higher than their IAT1 (in the MAF). Most people don't ever see a IAT2 on a Centri car.

Now of course that 30deg delta will change under boost-WOT because the volume of air increases dramatically, there is boost (heat) and all sorts of other variables. The problem is I don't have that information because this guy is spraying meth at WOT which makes all that data useless. But despite not having WOT data I thought it was eye opening that the IAT's are not really the IAT's.

Because of the Centri blowers IAT sensor location they can't be compared with PD blowers which have the sensors right before the intake port apples to apples.

SpectreH

The MAF in my setup is mounted right at the intercooler exit - about 12-18 inches prior to the throttle body, which is about the same distance it was in the stock configuration.


I went centri because I felt I didn't really need gobs more torque off the line in a car that can roast the rear tires in stock form. Of course with the i-1, I can select a mode that allows the CVT to build boost off the line.

sqidd

[QUOTE=Len;6949763]I'm sorry but I can't. All the data I have collected over the years is for my use. It is not cataloged, collated, sorted and organized into a presentation for mass consumption. You can either take my word for it, or not. It really is no skin off my back, I'm just trying to help by getting the real on the ground information out there.

You're assumptions are wrong if you look at the goal. And the goal is to keep IAT's down to a point where the ECU doesn't pull ignition timing.....ever. The Eforce (and a lot of other blowers) do not have IC systems designed correctly to reach this goal. Even at low boost/low HP numbers (your standard kits). The dirty little secret in the forced induction industry is IAT's and how most kits do not control them correctly. That is because it costs money to solve that problem. Your dyno numbers will look good because it is a lot easier to keep IAT's down on the dyno, but in real life most blowers are running around pulling timing all over the place.

Bottom line, there is no out of the box blower kit that will keep IAT's down to the point that the ECU won't pull timing. Some are better/worse than others. Some can be fixed with a big heat exchanger and good water pump because the IC design will support it. Some not so much. The Eforce falls into the "not so much" group.

When I got into PD blowers I made the same assumption you did. It's intercooled right? That solves that right? Why would they make something that didn't get the job done? It's reasonable to think that, but it's not representative of reality.

I've worked on getting every IC out there to work correctly. With a few mods and a few supporting components I have been able to get most of them working much better (not perfect though).......Except the Eforce and Kenne Bell. No matter what you throw at them, and that is up to and including custom machined parts and welding, they just don't perform.

At the end of the day if you have a choice between 4 blower kits that all have the same screws (TVS2300) you want the one with the best intercooler. Most people buy their blowers based solely on the brand of the head unit (the blower). That is a mistake. As long as the head unit is sized correctly for the HP goal and not a junk design (which is rare) it doesn't matter what you use. What really matters is how cool you can keep the intake charge and that is down to the intercooler design. These should be the priorities when choosing a blower, in order:

1.) Intercooler performance.

2.) Head unit (blower) is sized correctly for the goal.

3.) Head unit is properly designed with a large enough inlet to support it's capacity.

4.) Drive belt system design (there are a few horrible ones out there).

You can have the biggest baddest blower with the shiniest features known to man but if you put it on top of a junk intercooler you will get crap results, it's as simple as that.

You can't upgrade intercoolers in PD blowers (you can sometimes tweak them a little, but there are no upgrades). What you have the day you buy it is what you have forever. That is why getting the right one from the start is so important.

The problem with the information you seek is that there isn't very much out there. For example, until I posted you didn't know that all blower kits have intake air temp issues. That's a HUGE deal that most people don't find out till after they have made their purchase, installed it and have been driving around for a while.

"Why does my car feel slower after a couple of minutes of driving?"

It's because the IC system isn't keeping up and the ECU is pulling timing. I'm not at all exaggerating when I say that your average 550hp blown Coyote is driving around down 50-75hp pretty much all the time. The dyno graph says one thing, reality is different.

I would say 90% of blower owners don't understand how bad high IAT's hurt power. The same 90% doesn't even know what their IAT's are (and if they did, what they mean). I can't count how many people I have told to sample their IAT's (through a gauge or data logging) and see where they are running compared to where the ECU starts to pull ignition timing (usually 135deg). Every single one of them was absolutely shocked when they realized they were down on power almost all the time.

I have never ever seen a out of the box blower kit that didn't pull timing a lot. Some worse than others. Some can be fixed, some cant.

FromZto5

So sqidd... just curious, what are your thoughts on the Magnuson blowers/intercoolers? Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings I have the TVS2300 and their stock intercooler and am very happy with it. I'm running a diff't tune, plus a 3.6 pulley for ~9lbs of boost. Your thoughts on their kit in general? I'm pretty happy with it. I guess maybe the intercooler is not as good as it should be and maybe my car pulls timing frequently, I dunno. Either way, for the street where I drive 100% of the time (no track, racing, etc), it never feels slow or slowing down

MRGTX

Holy crap. This turned out to be a great discussion.

Sqidd, thanks for sharing your insights!

After reading through the posts, I feel like I have a new perspective on superchargers but which off the shelf kit has the best intercooling capability for a stock motor...with a bit of head room (if one wants to build a motor down the road)?

SpectreH

I'd say the Department of Boost's setup has the best liquid to air intercooler. Their website has a lot of info.

sqidd

I'm 100% aware of that. That location is not representing the true IAT though.

The stock location was chosen by Ford because the car was NA as designed and the IAT's aren't nearly as critical. The GT500's have two IAT sensors. One in the MAF and the other in the intake, after the IC and right before the intake port. They did this because they need a more accurate/representative IAT reading when dealing with boost. And obviously because it needed to be post IC.

My core point though was that PD IAT readings can't be compared to Centri IAT readings because they are not taken in the same place in the system. I'm not trying to infer anything, only point out a fact that I had suspected for a long time but was only recently able to verify.

sqidd

Hands down the Department Of Boost GT550-S197. It's light-years ahead of anything else.

laserred38

I don't have any need for more power in my car, but I've always been attracted to the DOB offerings, and now if I ever move out of this godforsaken state to a place where I can actually let my car stretch its legs, the DOB kit would be going on my car. I love the OEM looks and overbuilt foundation to keep the car operating at its best. No fluff, no pipe dream dyno numbers. I would love to have this kit now, but again a) don't need it to drive in stop and go everywhere in the SF Bay Area, and b) don't have the money right now haha.

FromZto5

Sqidd... please see my post and inquiry above. Thanks.

sqidd

Sorry, blew past that.

The Magnuson is a good blower design. I like front entry stuff. If shooting for max power levels (which involves forging the motor and putting a big fuel system in it, which most don't do) the inlet is going to be restrictive. But in the 550-600hp range it's no big deal. I wouldn't call it a "max effort" blower. But most people don't go max effort so that's not a knock.

The IC is pretty weenie unfortunately. I would rank it with the Eforce. If you stuff enough water though it with a good pump it can perform "average" with lower boost numbers (9-10psi). Repeated runs, hot days, etc will have it pulling timing a lot. I haven't messed with the Maggie stuff but I have talked with a few guys at the drag strip and keeping them cool was a big deal.

If I had one I would put the best pump possible on, the biggest HE I could stuff in there, keep the boost as low as possible and go have fun. Is it as good as can be? No. Is it a complete disaster? No, it's not that either. If I had a choice between a Maggie and something else? I would go another direction.

FromZto5

thanks for your input sqidd... that's what I was looking for. I 100% agree that with a Maggie blower, you're not going to get big power. The limit will be about 600ishwhp. I chose it for ease of install really, and I got a really good deal with it too. I didn't want to grind the timing cover with the other kits. Now as far as being "only" limited to 600ishwhp, I was also ok with that because, I was never going to push it beyond 600 anyways, because that's the limit (around there) for the stock Coyote block/internals anyways right? So... given that argument, going with the Maggie was ok, as long as it met other criteria which I needed.

That being said, if I could do it over again? Knowing what I know now (I'd like to think I got smarter over the course of 2 or more years...lol), I'd probably have gone with a Roush or VMP blower, or maybe a Whipple.

I just got done testing my new tune with larger CFM intake out, and I should be at 575whp right now. The new tune has really woken my set up. For drivability, the Maggie is great. I love the set up now. I can't wait till I get my Kooks headers and cats on.

sqidd

550-600hp is a LOT. The internet and inflated HP claims really have skewed reality. That is a LOT of power. There are not many cars on the planet running around at that level. And considering you can do it and keep the car 100% street-able is amazing. My blown Yote makes 550 and I love it to death. I drive it just like it came from Ford that way. Put gas in, change the oil and just enjoy it. Are there faster cars out there? Sure, will you ever run into one? Unlikely. And if you do, who cares really.

I have a 1050hp car too. I hardly ever drive it. It has a ton of $$ and work in it. And really not very fun to drive aside from the quick blast to get the adrenaline going or give someone a ride. You certainly don't want to go anywhere in it. There is the flip side of big power.

Yep, pretty much.

Good kits. The Department Of Boost GT550-S197 is a real contender too. It's got the best intercooler in the industry by a large margin and is very flexible as far as what can be run for head units. It's something that can be gotten into for thousands less than other kits and still makes 550-600hp. And in the future can support up to 1400hp by using different blowers.

One thing I forgot to mention about the Maggie (a few others are like this) is the blower bet arrangement. To save money they used the "front" belt. This is a bad move on the Yote. That front tensioner is nowhere near up to the task of controlling a supercharger. The tensioner won't bend because it's so short. But on the flip side it is so short and has so little travel it's bouncing off the stops every time you shift. Which is no good for the crankshaft, oil pump, #1 main bearing and all of the idler/accessory bearings. Check this write up out. It gives an outline of how tensioners are supposed to work.

Scroll past the stuff for the Frankentensioner to the tech section:

http://departmentofboost.com/product...ntensioner.htm

TommyV

Sqidd, you seem like a very knowledgeable person, but again, if you can post a link to an article, or video, that shows the Edelborck ic is inefficient, please do.

SpectreH

I hope the tensioner on my ProCharger is up to the task since it is a separate belt and tensioner for the unit.

sqidd

The game is rigged my man. Where do you think something like that would be? The magazines don't do honest reporting anymore. "tech" articles are paid for by the manufacturer. So no facts there. There is no "Mythbusters" or "Consumer Reports" for hot rod parts. So nothing there.

FromZto5

I think he addressed that question earlier. He said his rationale comes from his own personal experience. That being said, I'm not sure what his qualifications are, but it does sound/read like he knows what he's talking about. Perhaps he works for Department of Boost directly?

I still have to read that latest link he provided... I enjoyed reading the other ones.

TommyV

Well, that's the problem. A lot of guys post replies that this is good and that is crap. When you ask how they know that, no facts, just the Geico "Well everyone knows that."

I can post plenty of articles and videos showing that the Edelbrock's ic is efficient (for that sc) and works as advertised. My IAT's are in the range of other members and on 100+ deg. days I don't notice any power loss.

Until I'm provided with some evidence that proves that the ic is inefficient, I'll believe otherwise.

Also, I'm not sure how an ic would fit that is "double" the size of the Edelbrocks.