Wow, the sad thing is that I both expected this to devolve into actual personal insults and, somehow, feared it would be you doing it. The reality here is that TMS has gotten to a point where you almost can't have a thread that in any way, shape, or form relates to Carroll Shelby without it turning into a 'I hate Shelby and SVT/Coletti rules' ***** fest. In fact, it has gotten so predictable that we genuinely don't need those folks to enter their opinion into the equation for the millionth time, I know them all already and could do it for them.

'Shelby didn't have anything to do with the new GT500', 'he was cool 11,000 years ago but has done nothing since', 'he is an ***hole who sues everybody still living on planet earth', 'the Cobra was really an AC despite what the serial number says' etc, etc...and that is just the tip of the iceberg in almost every single thread that has anything to do with Shelby or Shelby American. I get that he is a controversial guy, I get that not everybody likes him, and I really do understand why....but I also understood why the first five thousand times they said it and don't require a refresher in what seems like almost every single thread remotely related to the man. To be fair not everybody who doesn't like him on this forum does that, but the moderation of some posters doesn't cancel out the myriad people who consistently feel the need to ruin any thread remotely related to the subject in question.

I wonder what would happen if I spammed SVT threads on this forum with how much Coletti and SVT suck/sucked as often as Shelby threads get derailed by the 'did I mention I can't stand Shelby' crowd? My guess says it wouldn't still be going on, that I know how that would have been resolved, and I can't help but find I'm wondering just how neutral that scenario sounds given what is happening here and the response to the Incessant Shelby whining here.

The really disappointing part here for me is that this just seems like another part of a trend here to me. I've been here a long time, when there were just a couple of hundred people on the site more than a few of whom are still here, and while I can be more than a little controversial at times I've only had meaningful run ins with a few people over that time most of whom aren't here anymore. Heck, I typically look forward to your posts, but when I call out a sub group of the forum for doing something ridiculous I now find that I need to 'get out my knee pads'.

You know what, don't worry about it.

 

It seems to me that prior to that post of mine you had already taken it personally. I've said my feelings and thoughts on the matter. I don't give Shelby a free pass as it seems some people do, but of course the Mustang and Ford is better off because of him then. And probably even now if only for marketing.

But it really does seem to me that you have an axe to grind with SVT and will always whip it out do to speak anytime Shelby is debated. And of course you are always right. So I guess I don't really feel the need to argue it anymore. Essentially I'm just relating my thoughts and feelings and there may or may not be a few people out there who agree or who feel even stronger about it. Not trying to rewrite history here.

I get accused of constantly bashing and I must hate for bringing it up so much. If anything I'm on here a lot and when someone responds I feel the need to respond in kind. I'm not in here throwing bombs and bailing never to return.

I just don't see it your way. Sometimes that's just the way it is. And while I own 2 SVT cars I am far from and SVT fanboy. It does hold some nostalgia for me as I'm only 39 years old and wasn't alive when Shelby did most of what he did.

 

Besides the only person that looks forward to my posts is possibly me.

 

Lots of us wait to find discrepancies in your posts.

 

to me its simple.. people hate the man so of course you are not going to get a good response. . Its a trend because its becoming more common. People like the Termi better because for the day and time it was the most awesome mustang. If the svt garage put out the GT500 under the the plain SVT cobra most people would agree it would be a better car.

This is really like going onto a VW forum and talking about all the good Hitler did for the VW bug.. Glory days are darn good gone and for reason.. move on! its a great time to be a mustang lover.

 

I am surprised at the heat generated by the SVT vs Shelby rants that occur on the site. Shelby was a race car driver--driving for Aston Martin, he won the 24 Hour Le Mans. After he retired from driving, his automotive projects, like the Cobra, the Daytona Coupe, the GT40 and GT350 Mustang were very successful. His name has been associated with two iconic sports cars, the Cobra and the Viper. Like him, love him, or hate him, you can't change history.

SVT was essentially a Ford Marketing operation--I don't recall whether they even developed their own parts or actually borrowed the go-fast bits from Ford Racing. Most of the products developed were marginal and ultimately not very profitable for Ford. SVT Focus? SVT Contour? F-150 Lightning? The only product that seemed to develop a solid following was the SVT Mustang Cobra. But then, Mustang has always had a following, whether it had SVT or Shelby attached to it. (The Raptor might change that, but it's too soon to tell.)

If you want a Shelby name on it--OK, I can understand that. If you want an SVT name on it--that's OK too. But if you want the best bang for the bucks without paying for branding, buy a Mustang GT. It is delusional to believe you are not paying for licensing or branding if there is an SVT or Shelby on it anywhere. Yes, Ford must send a check to the Old Man, but they must also pay additional overhead for the SVT operations--those engineers and marketing people do not work for free.

The GT500 is what it is--if you like it, go for it. If you don't--don't buy it. But arguing over what name Ford chooses to put on the vehicle is ludicrous.

Just my .02

 

That must be fun. And keep you busy.

 

I think you missed the point.

The svt group makes new things for us to buy and ford to market which is good for everyone. You are paying a markup for svt because its a better car. The GT500 is a good car but that has a name brand fee.


BTW the SVT is the best small car ford has every released in the USA. That might change in the years to come with the ST models and stuff coming down the pipe.

 

No--the SVT group does not make 'new' things for us to buy. The only new project the SVT operation tackled was the Ford GT (an excellent effort based on a past icon). Every other project that SVT has attempted has been a performance oriented version of an existing product.

The SVT Focus was critically acclaimed in its first year. But it did not sell very well. People (the buying public) didn't believe it was worth the extra cost. The SVT Contour was a piece of cr*p--(my wife bought one). Once again, people voted with their wallet and the vote, overwhelmingly went against the SVT Contour. I loved the SVT Lightning, but quite frankly it was as impractical as t*ts on a boar. It was a warrantied street-rod, not a pick-up. (At odd moments, I think I would still love to have one.)

What makes a 'better' car is completely subjective. If you are willing to pay for SVT branding, OK, it is your money, and I do realize different people value different things in a vehicle. Having said that--take a look at your rationale. You are willing to pay for SVT, because in your opinion that makes it a 'better' car. (Define 'better' as a qualification every one will agree on!) Isn't SVT product branding? (Yes, it is, and an important one, otherwise when Ford was cutting costs, SVT would have vanished.)

In your post you claim that the GT500 is a good car, but that car has a name brand fee. Does that mean you think the Shelby GT500 is not a better car than the Mustang GT? (Whether or not the cost of a new GT500 is worth the additional premium over a GT, there is not a drag strip or race track in the country where stock-for-stock a GT will beat a GT500. Is that 'better' or not?)

Even if you refuse to acknowledge it, SVT is branding, one that consumers will be asked to pay a premium for. Ford is not going to sell you an SVT product without a premium--they have to assure that they will make a margin. (Either make a profit, or be forced to ask the government for a bail-out.) Shelby is branding, one that a number of people are willing to pay for.

Let's hear it for plain-pocket T's, forget the swoosh.

 

Just for the mustangs in mind. SVT has always offered the better engine. Can't get the hand built forged SVT engines in anything else. So yes SVT has better to offer.

I have no beef with Shelby. He is an icon for sure. I think that the Shelby styling package is overkill and slightly gaudy. SVT never slapped a bunch of overkill on the exterior or interior of their mustangs. Simply performance based upgraded. The Shelby is far superior to the gt. plain and simple. Yes, it's better.

 

Yes, because if I think it a bit ridiculous that virtually every thread related to the man gets derailed I must be taking it personally. C'mon.

I just reviewed my own post history here and, unless I missed one, (and I may have since this took all of about two minutes...literally) I have been in six threads about Shelby or a Shelby related topic in the last three years. That includes this one by the way, and I think I have made more than one comment in three of those threads. Again, I may be off by a little, but we could bump that up to nine or ten just to cover our bases and I'm not going to feel like a glutton here. That said, it makes one wonder what it would take in order for you to not think somebody has 'an axe to grind'. Unfortunately, my guess says that, unless you think SVT is the holy grail of Ford high performance, you are going to get lumped into that category.

On that same subject, I wonder what we would find if we took a gander at the post history of the folks who show up to remind us of how much Shelby sucks virtually every time the man is mentioned? Ever felt the need to point out the axe any of those folks must be carrying, or insinuate that others have a problem with their stance on the issue? If so, I wonder why not? Even better, given your assertion that you have no bias in this issue, I wonder what your post history would reveal?

Right now I'm thinking about glass houses and stones.

Ah, so it's different for you? I don't think that this is what you mean, but you may want to rephrase that.

Honestly, I'm not really concerned with how you see it, like what you like as it doesn't matter to me if you think Shelby is the antichrist. I just don't need to be reminded of that in every remotely applicable thread. And, with sadly rare exception, somebody always feels the need to drop a reminder. I do have one axe to grind relative to this (and most anything), that being that if people are going to fuss, at least try to be accurate in the fussing. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if somebody tried to link Shelby with Kim Jong Il.

For the record, I'm younger than you are. Just thought I would point that out since it seems that the assumption is that anybody who doesn't jive with the 'Coletti-era SVT marketing was awesome' theory must be 60.

And the above makes my point perfectly. A Hitler reference? I realize that there is sincere belief here that all of the above is actually accurate, but a Hitler reference? Scratch my Kim Jong Il reference, this does it one better.

Of course in another discussion I might point out that I'm not sure everybody actually liked the SVT marketing scheme better given the fact that Terminator SVT loyalists insist was a better car than the GT500 through 2010 at a minimum, and which many insist was sold under more desirable badging had to be heavily rebated to eliminate remaining inventory during that models second, and last, year on the market despite bargain pricing and being introduced into an economic situation better than any GT500 has enjoyed to date. Better economy, cheaper car, and yet more difficult to sell?

But, I wouldn't want to appear to have an axe to grind, so I'll just throw in the towel and, from this point forward, stick to comparing Shelby to Hitler and insisting that everybody, probably even North Koreans (or should I say Germans?), utterly hates Carroll Shelby and that they only buy cars wearing Shelby badging because they have been forced to at gun point.

Sincerely, if this stuff wasn't so ridiculous I would think it was being done on purpose as a joke.

 

The throwing bombs and bailing comment wasn't directed at you jsaylor. It was meant to say that's not what I do. But if you took it as the former I can't help that.

I gave it a shot, but it just seems like a continued waste of time to go on.

 

Your impeccable logic is surpassed only by your mastery of personality assessment obfuscation. Kudos to you.

There it is. The magic word. HATE. Nice work. Followed quickly by finger pointing. You'd have made a great witch burner.

Nobody hates and nobody dislikes Mr Shelby. So please, enough. There is no 'group' and there is no conspiracy against your beloved icon. The only weird thing here is your repeated insistence to categorize (rather incorrectly at that), label as a seditionist, and then disseminate unwarranted assumption. Therein lies true fascination.


Stickler? The AC Cobra doesn't exist but AC deserves huge credit? You haven't figured it out because the premise to your assumption is flawed (again). But (as previous) you're on a roll, so...


So you take what you think something sounds like (that you inferred from what I said), then offer up more historical diatribe all under the guise of getting it right with specifics - your generalized lesson of days gone by, of course. Bravo.

Back it up, Grand Master Revisionist. You stated "I mean, who would've thought of taking a V-8 Mustang, warming over the engine just a bit, and then placing an emphasis on handling mods and superior braking offering all of this across the counter as a limited production factory piece for the track enthusiasts among us?" a few posts ago. You've since added 'ponycar' to the mix, but in the context of a musclecar I'd argue that John had the GTO on showroom floors before 1965. Maybe now you can know a little farther?

You have visions of a lot a axes and grinding going on.

And angry? Why should anyone be angry? I mean, if you are going to depict things accurately and specifically, why invoke emotion into your argument? Isn't that Joe's MO?

The ultimate decision lies with Ford Motor Company, not SVT. The decision to approve a contract to use Shelby's name on an S197 chassis stuffed with a 500hp engine came from the top. I can't blame them for making a marketing decision to use his name in the form of plastic lettering on the decklid. It absolutely helped them to attract appeal from their target demographic. It also did nothing in terms of making the car any better because of the royalty fees Shelby agreed to accept.

Again, Ford chose a target and hit it head on. I can't argue with that logic. My beef is that his 'involvement' has done nothing to add to the performance of the car - a point that you have sorely missed. If your metric for performance is how many stickers or how many stripes a car can possibly have on it - you are correct. He is the King in that category.

At least he had some influence with the Shelby GT and then '08-'09 KR. SAI did a pretty good job with both and actually modified them much in the way they did so long ago. The post title vehicles (SS, GT350, etc) don't make the cut AFAIC, but they make the same grade as Steeda, Saleen, and Roush have done, which are all admirable efforts.

It seems that in your eyes, any Mustang that uses a powerful V8, handles/brakes well, and that is sold in limited numbers is somehow a ripoff unless it has those magical six letters affixed to it. But to not slather a limited edition brute with the aforementioned namesake on every panel would have been a missed opportunity even in the eyes of a student that failed miserably in Marketing 101. The two can be mutually exclusive, peacefully coexist, and SVT can turn a profit.

In essence, I agree. Using his name was a natural. Shelby aficionados were eager to part with plenty of money and Ford was eager to take it. The perfect storm, if you will.

Being desirous of Ford to dump the royalty contract ignores nothing. In fact, it is a simple measure of bang for the buck. Shelby's name on the back of the car does nothing in terms of development or ultimately, performance. Removing the plastic lettering, the vinyl stripes, etc, and putting the royalty fees back into the car does. It is, that simple. No bones to pick with anyone.

Au contraire. From the repeated 'history' lessons and continued misunderstanding, you are failing to see the forest through the trees.

Again, you insist on throwing his name into the mix. Straw man on its face, it is obvious (at least to me) that he somehow isn't your favorite. Air it if you must but I'd proffer it does nothing but complicate your position.

If you are referring to the question I posed - no, that isn't what I meant. The question had no hidden or assumed agenda.

Again, in your eyes, every modern performance Mustang is somehow thievery if it doesn't come emblazoned with faux gas caps, decklid lettering, etc, that proudly declare homage to The Great One.

There's that word again. Hate.

I hate spinach. I hate it when the toilet backs up. But hating someone I don't know? Interesting. Can you please delineate in depth as to how you reached such an accurate assertion?

Mad too? Mad at all the Z-Maxx sales? Coffee makers? Keychains? Color me furious! I mean, how dare he!

Throwing in Craftsman, Sears (why both?), Snap-On, Ford (that's original considering the subject at hand) and every other business...
Mindblowing logic. Truly, mindblowing.

Your jump to conclusions mat gets waay too much use. Shrines, effigies, offerings, 'they', cruising, heckling, frustration. I'm guessing the job at the county fair guessing how much people weigh didn't pan out, eh?

Hate. Now dislike.

You point the finger and Mr Saylor lights the fire. Or is it the other way around?

Well put.


Haters that hate the man (clearly!). Tell me you moonlight as an FBI profiler and I will give up all hope.

BASHING? Come on.

Critical of Ford's decision making is the inference. Royalty fees for glitz remove bang for the buck. But the glitz, oh my!

[quick interruption]There's that darned Coletti again! Drats! Foiled again![/interruption]

Holy crap! Myriad! There is a conspiracy!!!!!! Ruination and hate!!! Let's jitterbug!

Spam? There's that pointy finger again.

Shelby sucks/sucked? I thought he did a pretty good job as a master marketer both now and almost fifty years ago.

Sub group of the forum? Doing ridiculous things? And you, knighted by the King of All That is Shelby to Defend the Honor of The Steed, need to call someone out?

Paison, words cannot express.

 

My spidey-sense tells me that you are somehow taking a shot at me from across the bow. Take a gander at my posts. I'm bolted in and ready for your judgement, however zany.

There are other cliches you know.

Arrgh!! Fingernails on a chalkboard! I give!!

Phew.

Seriously, every pot in the world already knows the kettle is black. We don't need another pot.

 

Ford Cobra roadsters, outside of more modern prototypes, don't exist either, but I am inclined to give Ford enormous credit for the Cobra roadster for various reasons. In fact Ford had a very heavy hand in the design of the 427 Cobra and, except for the carryover components like doors, hoods, etc. the entire big block car was a Ford-Shelby design effort by and large. Of course, most people don't know this and, in my experience, are too busy complaining about Shelby badging to take the time to find out.

Shelby Cobra roadsters had Shelby American serial numbers and weren't considered finished cars until they left his shop. Legally these cars are considered Shelby Cobras, and a court ruling upheld Shelby American as the manufacturer of record. Honestly I am not sure how you trump that. Literally, AC Cobra roadsters don't exist, they were always called by a different name and the only allusion to the Cobra name was in marketing materials and the serial number. AC had a huge hand in the Cobra, especially in the small-block powered cars which were primarily designed by them, and I have no interest in slighting them, but the cars were what they were.

The ponycar comment was intended as a hint, but apparently it didn't work so I'll remind you that I also said the following...

"and then placing an emphasis on handling mods and superior braking"

....and I'll forward the notion that this easily rules the Goat out. Serious handling wasn't a priority for any mainstream, volume production, American car prior to the GT350 outside of the relatively expensive and wholly impractical for most people Chevy Corvette. And to be honest, even there handling wasn't as lofty a priority in production trim as one might think given the mission of the car. The GT350 was uniquely hard-core, production ready, track special at that time.

Of course, the Mustang and eventually the GT350 changed everything even beyond the gates of FoMoCo, but the original point was and remains that there is a lot of similarity in the Shelby and SVT strategies over time. Warmed over smallblock, emphasis on handling, an R model race car and a relationship to Cobra badging? Coincidentally that formula describes the 93 Cobra perfectly, it also describes the first generation GT350 just as perfectly. Of course that formula would continue with SVT through the intro of the Terminator. Plug and play IRS? The Cobra had it in 03-04, and of course the famous Green Hornet prototype tested the feasibility of the same in 1968. A blown smallblock and a semi nasty take on the grand touring bend? That describes the personality and approach of the 03-04 Terminator and every GT500 built since 2007...it also describes the 67 GT350 with the Paxton supercharger.

You won't find that kind of ongoing similarity between the SVT Mustang lineup and anything else but the old Shelby Mustang lineup. To me the connection is obvious. Of course I also think it obvious that historical Mustang performance is going to influence modern Mustang performance, but if you want to see it otherwise go for it.



I didn't miss anything, I just don't think it makes sense to produce a car that reeks of being a modern day Shelby GT and call it something else if you have a choice. Certainly not in light of the provenance of that moniker. If Ford produced a new GT that looked, drove, and acted like a Mustang and called it a Probe I would be at just as much of a loss.

I disagree with a great deal of Shelby's decisions over the last twenty years or so, I just don't feel the need to replace the moniker or throw it our entirely due to this. Some apparently do.



On the contrary, I would expect a Mustang that looks and acts like a Boss 302 to be called a Boss 302, and for a Mustang that reminds of Mach-1 to be called a Mach-1. There is room for new names, there always will be, but to create a new name for the sake of doing so is, IMO, a bad idea.

And SVT obviously can turn a profit, if I am not mistaken they are doing so right now (if they weren't you would have heard about it with Mulally at the helm) I simply find the SVT era Coletti oversaw to be flawed in some respects, some of which I believe were bad for FoMoCo as a whole. And of course, during that period, SVT had a problem with a lack of profitability. To be fair, Ford as a whole would eventually become unprofitable during that time period. That said, while Coletti did amazing things for Ford previously, for example he played a huge role in saving the Mustang as we know it. I personally think he became to embroiled in inner corporate politics over time, but I won't go into that. If I'm right he is far from the first storied auto exec to outlive his usefulness, but then I would point out that I don't feel the need to remind people of this in every SVT-focused thread that I see.

Marketing 101, it doesn't matter how good the product is if people won't pay for it. Names bring credibility and cachet and people pay for both. And I think removing the name will hurt sales and ATP. I suspect you might see a surge of sales if you returned to the SVT Cobra moniker in the short term due to pent up demand, but long term I don't think it would work given the positioning of the car right now, and I am basing that on historical sales performance.

Actually, I would prefer that Ford use the Boss nomenclature for factory offerings and that Shelby return to doing his own thing as a stand alone but closely related operation given my druthers. Kinda ruins the assumption that I'm just all about Shelby I know. Of course, I seldom get to actually say that because these threads typically become crowded with people ranting that AC designed every Cobra (they didn't), the cars aren't actually Shelby's (they are), etc, etc. And yes, I have heard every thing I cite here more than once.

I'm a stickler for accuracy relative to Ford history in general, and my biggest problem with the pro SVT crowd is that there often seems to be an insinuation that the 04 and earlier SVT years were the best years of Ford high performance, which almost makes me want to ask if they have been living in a cave and are unaware of the 1960's. I want credit to go where it is due...Shelby American...Holman Moody...Ford...even AC. But that would be the point here, I want that credit to go where it is actually due, which makes perfect sense to me on a Ford forum. There is so much disinformation running around with regard to Ford high performance history that I sometimes wonder if there is more wrong info circulating with regard to this than right info. Of course, such is life on the internet.

Speaking of accuracy, Shelby was no master marketer in the 1960's as evidenced by the fact that the Cobra roadsters were a disaster from a retail perspective. Of course, the entire role of Shelby American never really had anything to do with marketing until Shelby had one foot out the door anyway, at that time it was about racing and production cars were a necessary by-product. Ford took control in 1968 and the GT500 produced in that year was just as much a Ford product as the current one is. Irony, when complaints arise regarding Shelby marketing the decision to use the name for marketing was primarily made by Ford....on both occasions.

Your spidey-sense would be failing you. You don't have nearly enough post history to qualify for that description. Don't go gettin' paranoid on me.

Ah, it appears that the intended effect didn't hit home, though you did catch the emphasis which I do appreciate. I was making a point that, in this case, wasn't related to you.

 

I appreciate the clarification.

 

Holy crap with a capital C.

If you can't get the point without making yourself the victim, you cannot be helped. The reference was an analogy to your repeated name calling followed by a quick judgement rendering. See the analogy, however sarcastic?

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing that to a Hitler comment?

On Edit...



The appointee quote was sarcasm - stoic humor at best. Enough with the use of the word hate. No food.



My bad for assuming that you peruse other mainstream Ford forums. I've been around the block. My mistake for thinking you may have seen me elsewhere.

 

Sounds like Rush Limbaugh.....but I digress...

 

Nobody making anybody a victim here, I even edited it out for the sake of brevity though that horse has left the barn. I simply find the extensive use of hyperbole by those who complain about hyperbole amusing. Put simply, it was a joke.

And where did I call anybody a name?

Yeah, actually I got it.

Oh, I do venture to other forums. That said, I'm not looking for offenders cross forums, just disappointed that this forum which has historically been very even handed seems to be falling down here.

 

Touche!

Wow. I break out each and every mischaracterization you make as you do it - repeatedly. And you accuse me of using it extensively?

Denial with a big D.


Calling a spade a spade will never be falling down. Enthusiast have a pretty good sense of value. Mentioning bang for the buck would almost sound like having an axe to grind at this point. There are quite a few that see little value in the plastic letters and the vinyl stripes.





I happen to be one of them.