Synchros in 3rd.
4/8/08, 02:22 PM
#61
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Ummm....yep. To be clear though, I've only generated the issue about 10 times in 3 months, and 4 of those were while attempting to figure out what was happening. So it's not like I'm putting up with it all the time. I'm content for now to not have the dealer crack the tranny, considering replacing the synchros apparently doesn't solve the problem. Hopefully they will figure out exactly what the issue is, or maybe Tremec will, considering Ford doesn't actually make it...
4/8/08, 02:28 PM
#62
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Ummm....yep. To be clear though, I've only generated the issue about 10 times in 3 months, and 4 of those were while attempting to figure out what was happening. So it's not like I'm putting up with it all the time. I'm content for now to not have the dealer crack the tranny, considering replacing the synchros apparently doesn't solve the problem. Hopefully they will figure out exactly what the issue is, or maybe Tremec will, considering Ford doesn't actually make it...
My biggest concern is that by the time they DO figure out a fix, my car will have significantly more miles, and add to that the fact that the car is now blown, the dealers will blow me off.
Well, I do have paperwork from the one dealer's attempt to fix it, so that is proof that there's a "pre-existing" condition.
4/8/08, 02:48 PM
#63
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I'll try to be brief, but that's hard for me to do. When I first got my '06 two plus years ago, I thought I had all kinds of tranny problems, I was a TSB-chondriac. I had no "in" with any of the local dealers and also got fed lines of BS. In hindsight, I probably didn't have the 2-3 grind, I think for me, it was lack of experience with a manual and what to expect noise wise. I threw in some thicker fluid and wrapped the thing in a tranny blanket (both for safety and to quiet it down). Meanwhile other things/priorities came along and I eventually forgot about it. I'm at 25,000 miles now and if the thing was gonna blow up, it probably would have done it by now. Knock on wood...
Now as far as dealers...service writers are there to be idiot translators and present clean image for the customer. Most don't know a wrench from a socket. They're usually copier salesmen rejects (doooosh that's low), just "workin' for the weekend" if you know what I mean. If you know cars and aren't offended by a guy covered in grease and tire marks, then just politely tell the service writer you'd rather speak with the Service Manager or mechanic directly, you don't need their "translation" services. You may want to be polite and at least let him write up the ticket first, though. :jk:
Now as far as dealers...service writers are there to be idiot translators and present clean image for the customer. Most don't know a wrench from a socket. They're usually copier salesmen rejects (doooosh that's low), just "workin' for the weekend" if you know what I mean. If you know cars and aren't offended by a guy covered in grease and tire marks, then just politely tell the service writer you'd rather speak with the Service Manager or mechanic directly, you don't need their "translation" services. You may want to be polite and at least let him write up the ticket first, though. :jk:
4/8/08, 02:54 PM
#64
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Thread Starter
I'm not going to be blown any time soon (I wish...) but I'm going to be putting in an MGW shifter and CAI, tune and lots of the other usual goodies. I'd rather get the warranty headaches out of the way so I don't have to undo my hard work just to take the car in to fix something major. I guess I'd rather they come up with a fix, but I also think that they could possibly make it worse by monkeying around in there trying to come up with a blind fix. Since it doesn't happen often, and I know how to avoid it, I'll sit for now. And you're right, I hope it doesn't get worse as the car gets older, and that's really what motivated me to try investigating it. But as you said, it's documented now, so at least there's that.
4/8/08, 03:41 PM
#65
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...I guess I'd rather they come up with a fix, but I also think that they could possibly make it worse by monkeying around in there trying to come up with a blind fix. Since it doesn't happen often, and I know how to avoid it, I'll sit for now. And you're right, I hope it doesn't get worse as the car gets older, and that's really what motivated me to try investigating it. But as you said, it's documented now, so at least there's that.
One time I had carpet replaced in a cougar; it didn't fit properly. They "glued" it so it would stay tucked in to keep my pissing and moaning at bay. I wasn't too pleased/
One time had mechanical work done, and obvious fasteners were missing. I am no mechanic, but when I work on something I put it back together EXACTLY as it came apart. I haven't left out nuts/bolts/fasteners since my first enginer repair back in my teenage years.
Had an interior trim piece replaced for peeling on a Monte Carlo; they forgot to plug in my cigarette lighter/accessory jack.
Anyway, FWIW my pony is over a year old from the time I bought it, and 10,000+ miles on the clock since purchase. The shifting hasn't changed one bit in that time. It is no better than it was when I first got it, and its no worse.
-Alan
4/8/08, 03:50 PM
#66
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Thread Starter
I tried an MGW and really liked it, so I'm thinking I'm going to swap the shifter to make it more solid feeling and replace the tranny fluid with a better synthetic. Past that, I'm not seeing too much else that can be done.
Oh wait! I could get a 6spd GT500 trans and shifter!!
And then reality set in... lol
Oh wait! I could get a 6spd GT500 trans and shifter!!
And then reality set in... lol
4/8/08, 06:37 PM
#67
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Since winter is over, I'm just going to wait until the end of this year to report this problem again, since they couldn't reproduce it this time. By then, my tranny will have gone through more daily wear and tear that will hopefully be remedied if they choose to replace the tranny - and if the grind causes any lasting damage, my tranny will hopefully be "broken enough" for them to replace the whole thing. So either way, win-win for the consumer if you still have a warranty (either it's harmless and nothing is replaced, or it causes tranny failure/noticable problems in which case it will be easy to produce a case for it to be replaced with a new one)
4/10/08, 09:16 PM
#68
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Further Update:
For all you guys who see this and work in a dealership, do not ever let some service cust service rep tell your customer something a technician said if they don't actually understand it!!!!
I sent off an email, basically detailing that I didn't appreciate the insinuation that I was abusing my car and that their solution as explained made absolutely no sense and that I expected more. I received a call from the Dealer Service Manager and things make a lot more sense now. After a 15min conversation on the phone, here is what he said.
First. There is no solution to the problem from Ford yet. He's already checked all the TSB's and checked with other technicians to see if they have any other solution and they agreed that changing the synchros for 3rd won't really solve the issue. He said that the 08's have the same fluid as previous years.
Second. The BS about the shifter is actually a combination of a Cust Service Rep who just didn't understand what the technician meant, and a technician who thinks he knows everything about the driving public without checking his facts or asking anyone. The FRPP shifter they were recommending was being recommended because it had shift stops on it. Because.....the technician was the person who said "this guy is racing his car and jamming the gears and that's why this is happening." He recommended the aftermarket short throw because the factory shifter doesn't have shift stops and this would prevent me from killing my trans. I told the Service Manager what the technician can do with himself, as this is where the threat of voiding my warranty also came from. The Service Manager said he read my email, in which I detailed that the issue came from a COLD trans and that I specifically said I was shifting NORMALLY and not power shifting. Who actually power shifts their car when it's cold that actually likes their car anyway?? I said the car is my DD and that I was attempting to have them diagnose and cure the issue so I wouldn't damage my car and that I didn't appreciate the suggestion that I'm trying to kill it!
Third. That Ford would rather I get through 7500 miles before they start thinking about cracking open the trans to fix anything (break in). In my mind, especially talking to all of you, I don't think anything will change at all. I'm thinking about draining the trans fluid and upgrading it just to keep everything as smooth as possible.
So there you go, I'm not saying my faith is restored just yet in the dealer, but the Manager seemed MUCH more reasonable and knowledgeable and willing to help.
For all you guys who see this and work in a dealership, do not ever let some service cust service rep tell your customer something a technician said if they don't actually understand it!!!!
I sent off an email, basically detailing that I didn't appreciate the insinuation that I was abusing my car and that their solution as explained made absolutely no sense and that I expected more. I received a call from the Dealer Service Manager and things make a lot more sense now. After a 15min conversation on the phone, here is what he said.
First. There is no solution to the problem from Ford yet. He's already checked all the TSB's and checked with other technicians to see if they have any other solution and they agreed that changing the synchros for 3rd won't really solve the issue. He said that the 08's have the same fluid as previous years.
Second. The BS about the shifter is actually a combination of a Cust Service Rep who just didn't understand what the technician meant, and a technician who thinks he knows everything about the driving public without checking his facts or asking anyone. The FRPP shifter they were recommending was being recommended because it had shift stops on it. Because.....the technician was the person who said "this guy is racing his car and jamming the gears and that's why this is happening." He recommended the aftermarket short throw because the factory shifter doesn't have shift stops and this would prevent me from killing my trans. I told the Service Manager what the technician can do with himself, as this is where the threat of voiding my warranty also came from. The Service Manager said he read my email, in which I detailed that the issue came from a COLD trans and that I specifically said I was shifting NORMALLY and not power shifting. Who actually power shifts their car when it's cold that actually likes their car anyway?? I said the car is my DD and that I was attempting to have them diagnose and cure the issue so I wouldn't damage my car and that I didn't appreciate the suggestion that I'm trying to kill it!
Third. That Ford would rather I get through 7500 miles before they start thinking about cracking open the trans to fix anything (break in). In my mind, especially talking to all of you, I don't think anything will change at all. I'm thinking about draining the trans fluid and upgrading it just to keep everything as smooth as possible.
So there you go, I'm not saying my faith is restored just yet in the dealer, but the Manager seemed MUCH more reasonable and knowledgeable and willing to help.
I had my transmission rebuilt at less than 3,000 miles on the car. It's been awesome for the 3,000 miles since. I know others here have had theirs redone as well. Kinda jealous mine didn't get the entire syncro assembly replaced, but it's working well now (knock on wood).
FireBirdTN - Yeah, I did a bunch of research before bringing my car in and the TR3650's been in use for a while, apparently they've fixed a lot of the issues, but this one is still around. I doubt anyone at a dealer has been there long enough to remember/care though. There were a lot of ruminations about weaknesses in the shift forks being the culprit.
4/12/08, 06:38 AM
#69
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There is another thread regarding this same exact issue.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showth...=464458&page=3
I have 700 miles on my Bullitt now and third will grind every time the car is cold. I am familiar with driving manual transmissions since I drove my 88 with a T5 Borg Warner for 12 years before purchasing the 08 Bullitt. I have ensured the clutch is fully depressed. The grind occurs during normal light driving going 35 MPH. I don't drive a cold car hard. I ground about 8 times since I have owned the car before I finally wised up. The only way to get the trans into third from second while driving a this cold trans is to move the shifter from second into the gateway (N), let the RPM drove to idle, then move the shifter to third. If I push into third before the RPMs drop to idle, it will grind. Once the trans warms up after driving it for 3-4 minutes it shifts fine.
I was apprehensive about taking the Bullitt to the dealership only to have them blindly throw parts at it. It looks like the third gear synchronizers are bad from what limited information has been shared about the fix for this problem. Most of what I'm reading here is, they fixed it. What did they do? How about some scans of the service write ups. Only two posts here listed part numbers and a write up of the service. Both service write ups have the synchronizers in common but other parts vary.
If I take it in now, the problem will be present, being that the mornings are still cold up here in PA. The mileage will be low on the car which will indicate I have not had time to abuse the trans. I risk the chance that the dealership may not know exactly how to repair the problem.
If I wait until it gets cold again I will have more miles on the car which may result in the dealership telling me the problem is a result of me abusing the trans or shifting hard. This is not a daily driver so I should not have too many miles on it. However, this car is FUN to drive. It's hard to keep it in the garage.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showth...=464458&page=3
I have 700 miles on my Bullitt now and third will grind every time the car is cold. I am familiar with driving manual transmissions since I drove my 88 with a T5 Borg Warner for 12 years before purchasing the 08 Bullitt. I have ensured the clutch is fully depressed. The grind occurs during normal light driving going 35 MPH. I don't drive a cold car hard. I ground about 8 times since I have owned the car before I finally wised up. The only way to get the trans into third from second while driving a this cold trans is to move the shifter from second into the gateway (N), let the RPM drove to idle, then move the shifter to third. If I push into third before the RPMs drop to idle, it will grind. Once the trans warms up after driving it for 3-4 minutes it shifts fine.
I was apprehensive about taking the Bullitt to the dealership only to have them blindly throw parts at it. It looks like the third gear synchronizers are bad from what limited information has been shared about the fix for this problem. Most of what I'm reading here is, they fixed it. What did they do? How about some scans of the service write ups. Only two posts here listed part numbers and a write up of the service. Both service write ups have the synchronizers in common but other parts vary.
If I take it in now, the problem will be present, being that the mornings are still cold up here in PA. The mileage will be low on the car which will indicate I have not had time to abuse the trans. I risk the chance that the dealership may not know exactly how to repair the problem.
If I wait until it gets cold again I will have more miles on the car which may result in the dealership telling me the problem is a result of me abusing the trans or shifting hard. This is not a daily driver so I should not have too many miles on it. However, this car is FUN to drive. It's hard to keep it in the garage.
Last edited by newdy22; 4/12/08 at 06:44 AM. Reason: added link to other thread
4/12/08, 07:49 AM
#70
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Thread Starter
I'd say you might be right, that synchronizers might fix it, until Rebel73 started getting the issue again after having his replaced. I'm just not sure that dealers have much of a clue why it's happening, and until I see some successful action, I'm not letting them crack my tranny. Unless it gets worse that is. Then we'll see. Thankfully I have the Extended Warranty, so I have time...
4/12/08, 08:42 AM
#71
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I listed my parts/numbers that were changed and the notes from my ticket. I got lucky and they replaced everything in relation to 3rd gear and I the issue is now gone. I have tried to replicate it multiple times on cold mornings and I cant, issue seems to be fixed to my satisfaction. I also had them put full synthetic tranny fluid back in instead of the motorcraft mercon v that they use stock.
4/12/08, 10:43 PM
#72
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I listed my parts/numbers that were changed and the notes from my ticket. I got lucky and they replaced everything in relation to 3rd gear and I the issue is now gone. I have tried to replicate it multiple times on cold mornings and I cant, issue seems to be fixed to my satisfaction. I also had them put full synthetic tranny fluid back in instead of the motorcraft mercon v that they use stock.
4/13/08, 12:23 AM
#73
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Yah, my issue went from being a full time issue to a "cold time" issue. I called the dealership and will be taking it back next weekend right after I'm done at Fabulous Fords. Etnix, do you have the info. on what they did for you? Maybe I can help point these guys in the right direction.
Here is a list of the parts that are on my work order that they replaced:
1 BUSHING 4R3Z-7025-B
1 BUSH 1R3Z-7N318-AA
1 FORK THIRD AND 4R3Z-7230-B
1 GATE 4R3Z-7411-AA
1 SEALENT - SILI TA-29
2 NUT -W705443-S900
Here are the installers notes:
Verified 3rd gear grind, talked to ford they said to install all third gear parts including synco assembly and third gear shift fork. Remove trans and tear down and inspect.
Replaced all the third gear components found some wear on third gear assembly trans. Install trans and fill with fluid. Bleed the clutch system and test drive. Clutch operates like normal and shifts smoothly into all gears.
hope this helps..
4/13/08, 12:28 AM
#74
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Here is a list of the parts that are on my work order that they replaced:
1 BUSHING 4R3Z-7025-B
1 BUSH 1R3Z-7N318-AA
1 FORK THIRD AND 4R3Z-7230-B
1 GATE 4R3Z-7411-AA
1 SEALENT - SILI TA-29
2 NUT -W705443-S900
Here are the installers notes:
Verified 3rd gear grind, talked to ford they said to install all third gear parts including synco assembly and third gear shift fork. Remove trans and tear down and inspect.
Replaced all the third gear components found some wear on third gear assembly trans. Install trans and fill with fluid. Bleed the clutch system and test drive. Clutch operates like normal and shifts smoothly into all gears.
hope this helps..
1 BUSHING 4R3Z-7025-B
1 BUSH 1R3Z-7N318-AA
1 FORK THIRD AND 4R3Z-7230-B
1 GATE 4R3Z-7411-AA
1 SEALENT - SILI TA-29
2 NUT -W705443-S900
Here are the installers notes:
Verified 3rd gear grind, talked to ford they said to install all third gear parts including synco assembly and third gear shift fork. Remove trans and tear down and inspect.
Replaced all the third gear components found some wear on third gear assembly trans. Install trans and fill with fluid. Bleed the clutch system and test drive. Clutch operates like normal and shifts smoothly into all gears.
hope this helps..
I thought the bugs were supposed to occur in the FIRST model year?
4/13/08, 08:26 AM
#75
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Here is a list of the parts that are on my work order that they replaced:
1 BUSHING 4R3Z-7025-B
1 BUSH 1R3Z-7N318-AA
1 FORK THIRD AND 4R3Z-7230-B
1 GATE 4R3Z-7411-AA
1 SEALENT - SILI TA-29
2 NUT -W705443-S900
Here are the installers notes:
Verified 3rd gear grind, talked to ford they said to install all third gear parts including synco assembly and third gear shift fork. Remove trans and tear down and inspect.
Replaced all the third gear components found some wear on third gear assembly trans. Install trans and fill with fluid. Bleed the clutch system and test drive. Clutch operates like normal and shifts smoothly into all gears.
hope this helps..
1 BUSHING 4R3Z-7025-B
1 BUSH 1R3Z-7N318-AA
1 FORK THIRD AND 4R3Z-7230-B
1 GATE 4R3Z-7411-AA
1 SEALENT - SILI TA-29
2 NUT -W705443-S900
Here are the installers notes:
Verified 3rd gear grind, talked to ford they said to install all third gear parts including synco assembly and third gear shift fork. Remove trans and tear down and inspect.
Replaced all the third gear components found some wear on third gear assembly trans. Install trans and fill with fluid. Bleed the clutch system and test drive. Clutch operates like normal and shifts smoothly into all gears.
hope this helps..
4/27/08, 09:12 AM
#77
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With regards to the 3 gear shifting grind.. I too nhave had that happen in my 2005, and thought it was due to my letting the clutch out too quickly, but it's just a simple, "cold issue" and you can fix it with a new shifter.
4/27/08, 09:18 AM
#78
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I have had a rattle underneath my car now for 4 months. It started with a just in the morning while under freezing conditions when I'd fire the car up. It escalated to while driving it the first 10 minuits it would do it not at idle anymore, but under accelaration, and then after aprox 20 min. it went away. The dealer kept saying they could not find the problem, but i helped them find it. There is a buletin on 2005-2007 mustangs that has to do with a "separator plate" between the engine and the transmition. It will be performed Monday April the 28th, and they said its a broken part. it should get rid of the noise. has anyone else had a similar problm?
4/27/08, 04:28 PM
#79
Shelby GT500 Member
In my years of experience with these cars (I've had 7 or 8 of them) these Tremec (formely Borg-Warner) transmissions are fickle beasts. If you get a good one, it will serve you well and last for the life of the car provided you're not hammering the thing on the track or setting 600hp in front of it or both. If you do get a bad one however, your life can be made miserable by them. More than half the problem is the fact that you have NO IDEA what the level of qualification is of the person who's going to do surgery on your trans. I had a really really bad experience back in '86 with my GT. Something completely simple (a frozen U-joint) caused major issues which necessitaed surgery on my T-5. Now, had that technician (I use that term loosely) known what he was doing, I wouldn't have had additional, long term issues. BUT...because he didn't know what he was doing, all the fluid fell out of my poor little T-5 and basically I cooked it. Ford then of course decided they could still fix my dead T-5 and the issue went on and on until I personally BOUGHT a new world class T-5 and put it in myself. That finally resolved the issue.
The problem is manual transmissions while you'd think are simple devices aren't that simple. Guys who have limited experience really can't be trusted to work on these things. The issue itself wouldn't be that painful, but Ford MAKES it difficult because often the issue isn't resolved, you have to take it back 3 or 4 times and all that while, you still need transportation. All of this adds up to a complete mess and a mental breakdown in some cases.
Anyway, on to my theory about all this. I have an '05 and can I say I've NEVER experienced the cold temp 3rd gear grind?? No. I have experienced it. Have I taken my car in and complained about it?? No. I'm fully aware of the potential RIOT that can ensue by taking that route. The car shifts perfectly fine 98% of the time. In the cold, you do have to be a little ginger with it for the first 10 minutes or so, but after that, its fine. Complaining about this issue and then having Joe Schmo Ford guy do heart surgery on my trans just isn't happening. If the car were popping out of gear or exhibiting some other serious issue, I'd bite the bullet. I know it's a tough nut to swallow, but it may just be a better idea to live with this minor issue than to start world war 3 over it.
If you do decide to approach a dealer about this and have them rip out the trans, I'd suggest you get some particulars on the guy who will work on your car. What is his experience level? How many manual transmissions has he worked on?
Ask some questions and be prepared for more than a single visit is all I'm saying.
The problem is manual transmissions while you'd think are simple devices aren't that simple. Guys who have limited experience really can't be trusted to work on these things. The issue itself wouldn't be that painful, but Ford MAKES it difficult because often the issue isn't resolved, you have to take it back 3 or 4 times and all that while, you still need transportation. All of this adds up to a complete mess and a mental breakdown in some cases.
Anyway, on to my theory about all this. I have an '05 and can I say I've NEVER experienced the cold temp 3rd gear grind?? No. I have experienced it. Have I taken my car in and complained about it?? No. I'm fully aware of the potential RIOT that can ensue by taking that route. The car shifts perfectly fine 98% of the time. In the cold, you do have to be a little ginger with it for the first 10 minutes or so, but after that, its fine. Complaining about this issue and then having Joe Schmo Ford guy do heart surgery on my trans just isn't happening. If the car were popping out of gear or exhibiting some other serious issue, I'd bite the bullet. I know it's a tough nut to swallow, but it may just be a better idea to live with this minor issue than to start world war 3 over it.
If you do decide to approach a dealer about this and have them rip out the trans, I'd suggest you get some particulars on the guy who will work on your car. What is his experience level? How many manual transmissions has he worked on?
Ask some questions and be prepared for more than a single visit is all I'm saying.
4/27/08, 07:09 PM
#80
Mach 1 Member
Thread Starter
I'm right there with you on your thoughts. I took it in basically to establish the problem exists, but as you said, it works fine 98% of the time, and there's no reason to rip it all apart unless there's a guaranteed fix. And many of us aren't really keen just letting any old unknown person tear apart our trans.
I've decided to swap to a different trans fluid and see where that takes me. But unless there's a major issue that develops beyond this, I'll probably not trouble my dealer with it again.
I've decided to swap to a different trans fluid and see where that takes me. But unless there's a major issue that develops beyond this, I'll probably not trouble my dealer with it again.