Five Oh Brian

At another Mustang forum, you asked on November 29th about the average dealer add on for a Bullitt and were told adm's were gone and not to pay over MSRP...

http://www.muscularmustangs.com/foru...pic.php?t=1042

Yet, a week later you agreed to pay over MSRP anyway - against the advice given to you by 87hybrid at that forum. So, I am having a hard time finding sympathy for your decision, cdynaco.

Here's the actual post in case the link above doesn't work....

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: advice on buying limited production</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap> </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Hi: Does anyone have advice or websites for help in purchasing a limited production vehicle? I'm hearing that on Bullitt, Shelby, etc. the dealers tack on a bunch to MSRP. Is there any guideline or rule of thumb to be sure I'm not getting upcharged excessively? (Now didn't I say that nice?!)
2008 MSRP on Bullitt $31k, Shelby GT500 $41k approximately. What is average dealer add on?
Thanx, cdynaco

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: </TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap> </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Not what they once were.. do NOT pay more than sticker for any of the up graded cars. <STYLE type=text/css><!--td.attachrow { font: normal 11px Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color : #000000; border-color : #000000; }td.attachheader { font: normal 11px Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color : #000000; border-color : #000000; background-color: #EFEFEF; }table.attachtable { font: normal 12px Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color : #000000; border-color : #000000; border-collapse : collapse; }--></STYLE>
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'87 GT with a battery</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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RCSignals

Well you are right, it isn't how Ford does it now, but I understand it is how Ford will be or is proposing to do it.
I guess we'll see if they follow through or not.

Five Oh Brian

You'd be surprised how many people at Ford read these forums. I do NOT want any trace back to me, as there could be consequences for sharing too much info here. Like I said, I got in a lot of hot water with proprietary info online in the past that I thought the Mustang community would benefit from. Ford didn't see it that way and they put a stop to things quickly, but I managed to keep my job while others did not. Also, I'm NOT a salesman, so I have nothing to gain by sharing my dealership's info here.

SixtySix

I dunno, I've been buying cars the same way for OVER 10 years now. Why do "I" never pay over MSRP for anything? Somebody explain to me why this is?

How is it possible for me to order a 2005 Mustang in 2004 for under MSRP, when it was the hottest thing since sliced bread and commonly going for 5k+ OVER MSRP?

How is it possible for me to get another high demand vehicle from another manufacturer in that same year for under MSRP (a Honda Pilot) when MSRP and 2-5k over was the norm?

It's already been spelled out in this thread... education.

I find out what "I" want to pay for the car, I figure out how I want it optioned, secure my own financing and then I send out an email to a few dealers telling them exactly what I want and how much "I" will pay for it.

Within an afternoons time I ALWAYS get a response like this:

And it is done. No hassle, no muss, no fuss, no negotiating. EVER

cdynaco

Morning:

1. In my opinion your comments on our market based economy, and the laws of supply and demand, make perfect sense - in the used car market. Manufacturers (and Franchisers) have the power (as well as a fiduciary responsiblity) to set prices so that their product is both competitive and profitable. Those numbers are crunched by the bean counters, determined by corporate, marshalled into action by sales managers to sales staff. In the case of the Bullitt, Ford corporate reviewed costs, profitability, competition, a run of 7700 units, and determined MSRP of $31,075 was the correct number.

I have been in sales since 1976 (until I became disabled in '99) and I have NEVER had the power to set, change, or upcharge prices. Especially to the unsuspecting customer! Most of my experience was representing manufacturers. The company set the prices and if there were discounts to be had (volume, special promos, national chain pricing) they were all set by corporate. My friend is a career salesman and he has always had the same situation.

I believe that is how it should be. The marketplace will determine if corporate set the price correctly. And as a salesperson, it was a relief because if a price was out of line, it was the company's fault and my customer still had trust & faith in ME watching out for HIM/HER. Hence repeat business and larger orders. Trust is everything - especially in sales!

I also owned a financial services brokerage in the 80's. The prices were set by the companies and filed with the State, and the commissions were regulated by the NASD and Acts of Congress. No haggling, no gouging, no special deals for friends. Was that an impediment to business? Nope. Lots of huge successful businesses (and individuals) in that industry aren't there?

Its called a level playing field. And since auto purchases are usually the second largest purchase most people make (next to a home), myself and countless others have never understood why the new car dealers are allowed such leeway to gouge. Why the flea market, wild west, gunslinger attitude for such a major purchase?? And its not like my Bullitt is different from your Bullitt (except for a few options). Why should you get a better 'deal' than me? Its still a Ford, still a Bullitt. Further, look at all the cool aftermarket Mustang stuff displayed on vehicles on this board - those manufacturers set the price and the customer paid - there was no ADM on parts was there? Why on the new car itself??

In stark contrast, you, I, and about everybody breathing, knows that the reputation of car salespeople and auto dealers are way down on the list of professions you can trust. I didn't write the list, so don't shoot the messenger. They brought it on themselves.

2. It makes perfect sense to announce a consumer buying experience after the fact - good or bad. Your REPUTATION - Your NAME - is EVERYTHING - in BUSINESS & in LIFE!! If a company or salesperson has a brain, they will seek, honor, and leverage the most powerful form of advertising - WORD OF MOUTH!

It has worked tremendously for me and other intelligent salespeople and companies. And the manufacturers pay enormous amounts for advertising, so they better be paying attention to the reputation that is coming back on them - or all the money is wasted. Shareholders insist that better be money well spent! (Guess the in the toilet share prices of Ford, GM, Chrysler show shareholders are speaking out...) And bad word of mouth advertising is like the plague! In other words - you better do your utmost to avoid getting any on you!

3. Yeah it is a tough business, a tough time for US Auto manufacturers, and in my area. So my willingess to buy at MSRP - in the winter - should have been met with respect & integrity. They should not try to make-up their goals by gouging one or two buyers.

Since ADM's were a foreign language to me, they probably are to others. So IMO it IS helping to talk about & expose it. That ain't whining friend.

You win in business by repeat business - direct or indirect from friends of friends. And the sharper your pencil is, the greater volume your sales are. The low price/high volume method ain't theory no more. Ask Wal-Mart!

Respectfully and best wishes

1 COBRA

The TMS members seeking your assistance in the purchase of a Bullitt were likely to be primarily interested in the guarantee of ordering the car and the peace of mind you were likely to provide by doing so due to the contents and substance of your posts rather than seeking information which would place you in a compromising position.

Five Oh Brian

However that may be, I do not want any kind of link back to me. There will be times that my opinions differ from my employer and/or Ford, so I don't want to shame them should my opinion run contrary to their beliefs.

Five Oh Brian

MSRP stands for Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price, although it sounds like you'd want to reword it as Mandated Statutory Retail Price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdynaco

I believe that is how it should be. The marketplace will determine if corporate set the price correctly.

Yes, that it how YOU believe it should be, but it is not how the majority believe it should be. The majority like our market economy. Pay more for things in short supply, get big discounts when there's too little demand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdynaco

Its called a level playing field.

I think a level playing field is more like price fixing or socialism, depending on your viewpoint. Either of which is not good for consumers in a free market economy.

c25sailor

[quote=cdynaco;1075139]

Manufacturers (and Franchisers) have the power (as well as a fiduciary responsiblity) to set prices so that their product is both competitive and profitable. Those numbers are crunched by the bean counters, determined by corporate, marshalled into action by sales managers to sales staff. In the case of the Bullitt, Ford corporate reviewed costs, profitability, competition, a run of 7700 units, and determined MSRP of $31,075 was the correct number.


No sir. They may have the power, but they don't have a "fiduciary responsibility". They are not the trustee of the consumer. Are there crooks in the industry? You bet. Identify them. Go for it. But don't paint everyone as a crook. Are there great dealers who treat everyone right. You bet. Probably too few -- but they are out there. If everyone took the time to be informed, the economics would lead everyone to that model. The competitive price is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. No one drags anyone into a showroom, points a gun at their head and says "buy a car or I'll shoot". So the consumer has the choice. The uninformed don't do as well as the informed. That is true in every area. When you were in the securities business, those that took the time to learn more, generally did better. As a salesperson, if you knew your product, returned calls and treated customers well -- you did better. That is true in the automobile industry too. You mentioned buying a home, don't try to tell anyone that the uniformed don't get fleeced in that process. And your comparison to the used car market is flawed as well. The consumer has a much better shot at a new car. All of the cost information, warranty information and the like is readily available. With a used car -- you have no idea what the dealer paid or what profit will be earned -- you can ONLY compare your deal to the marketplace. With a new car you have the cost data and the market data upon which to base your decision.

Sounds to me like you want the government regulate car dealers by setting prices consumers will be paying. Count me out of that system. It will be an absolute disaster. You'll pay more, get less and it will take years to buy a car. That was the way it was done in Soviet Russia -- up until 1989 or so when the system collapsed -- because it doesn't work. You can't protect people from themselves.

You have my appreciation when you point out someone or something that has truly done wrong. The fact that you seem to thing that the free market shouldn't apply to your new car purchase -- I find objectionable. Free is not equal to Fair. As I tell my children, fair is in the eye of the beholder -- it depends upon whose ox has been gored.

Wal-Mart isn't a great model IMO -- they impose draconian requirements upon their suppliers -- if you don't conform to their demands, they don't do business with you. You like them negotiating for you -- which is why you approve of their model. I don't like transferring all of my dollars to China -- so I boycott Wal-Mart. The buy american stuff ended a long time ago with them.

You can be Wal Mart here. Just don't buy the car. But the real world says that the car business is a free for all on every transaction. Not that I like it either -- but I'm sure not going to beg Congress to change it!! I know that will be a disaster.

I will say that you've created a hot thread and a great forum. But going back to Brian o five, Why did you pay ADM when you'd been told on another forum not to, then come here and plead that you'd been fleeced by paying it.

1 COBRA

Might those possible difference of opinions include your personal view of MSRP offerings and the extraction of such offerings by the dealer you are employed by?

cdynaco

Hey Brian:

I only got 1 response. That did not dictate a consensus to me. Didn't say anything to me. Especially when so many had posted their having to pay ADM to get the car... much less order one not even available yet. And I watched for days for more responses before I bought as you noted, and I was fielding other calls and buying programs as well. Obviously not the right ones. I wish I had found this board first.

As far as horses go, it is my business opinion that product manufacturers that crank out thousands and thousands of the exact same product (give or take a few options) are in a different arena while their product is brand spanking new. Used anything brings about the auction arena. Ag is in a totally different arena because of so many things beyond one's control. Apples and oranges.

Perhaps I am wrong. But if I am, why do manufacturers even put a price tag on their product at all?? Why do retailers? Why not let both wholesale and retail be pure bid and ask?

Please see my post #65. Much of that is what my eyes saw during my life experience in sales and being exposed to hundreds of successful business owners - and how they treated their customers. And many of them still speak very highly of me because of my service and watching out for their money as if it was my own. I viewed them as partners so to speak - not fresh meat. If they succeeded, I succeeded. I am not saying this as a pat on my back, I've got enough plaques and my own integrity for that. I share it as a successful business method of pricing & profitability that makes and keeps good & lasting business relationships for years. I think millions of consumers and business people would agree. And by far, most manufacturers in America operate by those methods. Many of us wish the auto industry had a much higher percentage of dealers doing business that way. (Glad to hear you're at a good one.)

Again, look at the large number of views and comments this story has generated. I'm not the odd man out.

Appreciate you. Thanx!

05fordgt

You got that right.

And cdynaco, I got one question for ya? You agreed to pay over MSRP for the Bullitt yet you feel the need to get a laywer and sue? This is one thing that is wrong with this society, everyone is lawsuit happy! Are there times that its warranted? ABSOLUTELY!! (had I been able to obtain proof, I would have filed one with a local hospital), but to sue them over an ADM on a car that YOU agreed to buy with the ADM added to the price? GET OVER YOURSELF!! Either take the deal as written or get your deposit back and find a dealer who will do one at MSRP.

Rant over.

SixtySix

I think he likes to hear himself talk.... or see himself type as it were.

A man with a chip on his shoulder will undoubtedly get the shaft everytime. Lose the chip and you may find yourself in better circumstances

1 COBRA

eBay can be a good indicator with respect to demand. Presently there are seven '08 Bullitts with light interest and bids under the MSRP of a Bullitt without options. The '07 Shelby GT had similar early production reaction. Within eight weeks dealers were receptive to offers, within six months invoice prices were being advertised, and during the summer factory incentives were included. A similar scenario is not impossible for the Bullitt.

cdynaco

[quote=c25sailor;1075157]Hi:

1. I think I was taken out of context here or didn't make myself clear. The paragraph was discussing the role of the manufacturer and I meant the fiduciary responsibility as to setting prices that were both competitive and profitable, and then bringing their new product to market. If the company fails in this, they will be out of business.

2. I don't think I did that. But the industry in general does have a poor reputation - long before I ordered a Bullitt. This is not my first new car experience and it has only been a pleasurable experience once - in 1983 with a local Ford dealer that's out of business and the salesman is dead.

3. Well actually I don't choose to have congress involved either. And I want to be able to choose between a Mustang or a Camero or a truck, etc. and have compeition between manufacturers. What I firmly believe is wrong, is the standard of gouging that everybody here knows exists in the auto biz. Unfortunately some regulations have been needed to protect the consumer in many industries. And that usually came about after a long period of unethical business practices. See #5 below. (I wrote this backwards LOL)

4. OK I'm guessing here, but I think the auto parts suppliers to the manufacturers have a lot dictated to them too. If you want the volume, and the numbers work, you become a supplier at a set agreement. (No free for all at this phase.)

5. That free for all is what I adamantly oppose! For example, I just bought a humidifer. Now I could buy it at Target, K-Mart, local hardware or Home Depot, etc. One store's price is usually different than anothers and one may run a sale. That's where the market competition comes into play.

But if Home Depot runs a sale, Joe, charliehorse & Jane will ALL get that same sale price for that same new product. No haggling, no finance dept games.

Competition is also between models or makes of cars depending on my needs and wants. But in the 'free for all' NEW car business - Joe, charliehorse & Jane can all go to the exact same dealer and we're pretty much always going to pay 3 different prices for the exact same product!

I stand my ground that 3 prices for the same NEW product from the same store is an unethical business practice and makes for an unethical industry standard. Free market competition is one thing, getting "all the market will bear" is another. IMO

6. Please see my post #71

Be well friend

cdynaco

Woah!! Who said anything about sueing???

I specifically stated the reverse when others suggested it!

As a consumer and investor what I am going to do is speak out to the head honcho's. As I wrote, regardless of whether its successful, I'll feel better! LOL

And since the one post I made about ADM's on another board got only 1 lousy response (as Brian noted), I've published my story here for any other greenhorns.

The CEO's of most corporations are shielded from the crap that goes on down below. I've learned how to get successful responses and I'm going to try it here. That is the only recourse I am taking. I'll let you know if it works. Maybe if CEO's got more letters, they'd make it a point to review the policy.

Either way, I'm going to write the check and I will smile to each Bullitt adrenalin thrill I get!

Good luck to you!

05fordgt

? I guess I get one of these either because I was wrong with my post above, or because I am in the "evil business"! Since you gave me a "screw loose" smile, I did some searching.

Now, I don't know if its just the flu I caught that is going around, and I can't focus, but I looked back on page 1 of the thread and NO ONE said anything about a lawyer before you brought it up in post 15.

05fordgt

Then you post this! You make it sound like they "held you hostage and took the $2,500 out of your wallet". So the dealer "stole" the money from you? If you signed it, I would say that is a NEGATIVE! You signed it, and you agreed to pay it.

Your not garnering any sympathy here dude!

Whammer

After all is said and done- paying an extra $2500 for a car that you really want isn't so bad. Over 10 years that's just an extra $250 a year.
And as I posted earlier- I live in Canada. Even with x plan I'm paying $40,000 (taxes in) for my Bullitt. So quit your b-itch'in!!

Tony Alonso

Five Oh B and 05fordgt - aren't "durable goods" treated differently with respect to items considered commodities in terms of pricing? I am wondering about this with regard to the term "MSRP".

cdynaco, just curious why you don't get your deposit back and look for another dealer?