Dealer.pathetic
12/27/07, 12:44 AM
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Dealer.pathetic
All right guys... I've had enough! Having been in sales for 30 years, I have NO problem with a salesman or company earning a living. Through a lot of hard work and treating my customers money like it was my own, I have had a respectable career and I own my small acreage horse ranch & mountain home outright. And I've read some positive/defensive comments from those who work at dealerships and some with good buying experiences. Yes, ALL professions have both good personnel and some bad.
However, let me be direct: the auto industry has earned its reputation of being scoundrels for many years and from a huge number of customer experiences. The good guys in the auto industry are truly a minority. And it is only worse today and particularly with Ford. For those of you in the industry, I think you have forgotten what its like to be a wide-eyed, cautious, yet an 'I want to believe' consumer. You are too close to the inside to remember the picture from outside the showroom.
Because of larger goals, I have only afforded myself one new car purchase per decade. After 2 divorces and outrageous defensive litigation with the US Gov over my '99 disabling accident, I have finally been victorious and am rewarding myself - just for me! I have loved the new/retro styling of the GT for the last few years, but when I saw the Bullitt in Nov, my mind was made up instantly. Not only because of its clean and understated looks & cut above performance, but Steve McQueen has been my hero since "On Any Sunday" and my dirt bike youth.
Although I live in a more rural & uncompetitive area, I did what reseach I could (late comer to this board) and decided to use the Costco buying program. Unfortunately, they don't cover the Bullitt. I called the dealer Costco referred (which does have the better price reputation in my area of southern Oregon) and the saleman didn't know squat! I fell in his lap! A gimme!! His response a few phone calls later? 10k ADM... then 5k... I had never heard of such a thing! I told him MSRP was better than good enough and I'd talk to him after more checking.
So I talked to a drummer I play music with that has been in the business for years. He refers me to a San Diego dealership and the big Galpin in LA. Their lowest was $3500 ADM and the waiting list was 60 so far. I told them I don't want a waiting list, I want to put money down and order MY car. My friend said they would do courtesy delivery to my local dealer and I could therefore take delivery in Oregon (we have no sales tax). However, Galpin would not make any commitment to that.
So I am embarrassed to say that with that in mind, I responded to "Rocky's" 2nd follow-up call (the Costco named contact), and his minion "Randy", at Bulter Ford and settled on $2500 ADM - which is less than what CA sales tax would be with the hassle of flying to LA and driving back. I placed my order with $3k down on 12.6 and received my VIN on 12.19.
Now I read about all you champions that are getting XYZ plan. And all you who work at dealerships that deal at MSRP. Actually, that says the whole story. Insiders get treated with respect & decency, outsiders get screwed. And I'm paying cash for gosh sakes!!
I have been a loyal Ford buyer for about 25 years and have over 500,000 miles on Ford products counting work vehicles. And this is how I get treated! This should be a totally wonderful experience for me after my loyalty and the previous battles life has laid on my door. Instead, even though I'm going to have a great time with my Bullit, I'll always know I got screwed by greedy auto dealersscamships. No wonder Ford's stock is in the toilet. No wonder GM is getting beat by Toyota. No wonder Chrysler's teatering on banko. Here I am a loyal 'buy American' consumer to help my fellow American worker and the US economy. And in the end, I get eff'd for it! As usual, Detroit is just getting what it has worked for!
I'll enjoy my car. But I am going to haunt CEO's of Bulter Ford, Ford Motor, Costco; alert my numerous friends & business contacts and thru my website. And I'm going to dilligently wait for the opportunity to short Ford stock after every psuedo rebound!
I am so disgusted with the US Auto industry! Shame on all the crooks that abound in it!!
No apologies and good luck to the rest of you.
However, let me be direct: the auto industry has earned its reputation of being scoundrels for many years and from a huge number of customer experiences. The good guys in the auto industry are truly a minority. And it is only worse today and particularly with Ford. For those of you in the industry, I think you have forgotten what its like to be a wide-eyed, cautious, yet an 'I want to believe' consumer. You are too close to the inside to remember the picture from outside the showroom.
Because of larger goals, I have only afforded myself one new car purchase per decade. After 2 divorces and outrageous defensive litigation with the US Gov over my '99 disabling accident, I have finally been victorious and am rewarding myself - just for me! I have loved the new/retro styling of the GT for the last few years, but when I saw the Bullitt in Nov, my mind was made up instantly. Not only because of its clean and understated looks & cut above performance, but Steve McQueen has been my hero since "On Any Sunday" and my dirt bike youth.
Although I live in a more rural & uncompetitive area, I did what reseach I could (late comer to this board) and decided to use the Costco buying program. Unfortunately, they don't cover the Bullitt. I called the dealer Costco referred (which does have the better price reputation in my area of southern Oregon) and the saleman didn't know squat! I fell in his lap! A gimme!! His response a few phone calls later? 10k ADM... then 5k... I had never heard of such a thing! I told him MSRP was better than good enough and I'd talk to him after more checking.
So I talked to a drummer I play music with that has been in the business for years. He refers me to a San Diego dealership and the big Galpin in LA. Their lowest was $3500 ADM and the waiting list was 60 so far. I told them I don't want a waiting list, I want to put money down and order MY car. My friend said they would do courtesy delivery to my local dealer and I could therefore take delivery in Oregon (we have no sales tax). However, Galpin would not make any commitment to that.
So I am embarrassed to say that with that in mind, I responded to "Rocky's" 2nd follow-up call (the Costco named contact), and his minion "Randy", at Bulter Ford and settled on $2500 ADM - which is less than what CA sales tax would be with the hassle of flying to LA and driving back. I placed my order with $3k down on 12.6 and received my VIN on 12.19.
Now I read about all you champions that are getting XYZ plan. And all you who work at dealerships that deal at MSRP. Actually, that says the whole story. Insiders get treated with respect & decency, outsiders get screwed. And I'm paying cash for gosh sakes!!
I have been a loyal Ford buyer for about 25 years and have over 500,000 miles on Ford products counting work vehicles. And this is how I get treated! This should be a totally wonderful experience for me after my loyalty and the previous battles life has laid on my door. Instead, even though I'm going to have a great time with my Bullit, I'll always know I got screwed by greedy auto dealersscamships. No wonder Ford's stock is in the toilet. No wonder GM is getting beat by Toyota. No wonder Chrysler's teatering on banko. Here I am a loyal 'buy American' consumer to help my fellow American worker and the US economy. And in the end, I get eff'd for it! As usual, Detroit is just getting what it has worked for!
I'll enjoy my car. But I am going to haunt CEO's of Bulter Ford, Ford Motor, Costco; alert my numerous friends & business contacts and thru my website. And I'm going to dilligently wait for the opportunity to short Ford stock after every psuedo rebound!
I am so disgusted with the US Auto industry! Shame on all the crooks that abound in it!!
No apologies and good luck to the rest of you.
12/27/07, 02:40 AM
#2
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I feel your pain and understand how you feel to a certain extent. I have no idea but I would try to cancel the order if that is possible. There are a handful of people in the industry that know what they are talking about but they are the minority. One of the guys on this board that goes by Five Oh Brian or something like that is one of the few good guys imo. He works for a dealer in Washington state I think.
I am absolutly amazed at the lack of other people in Ford dealerships that dont take time to post on these boards. The corvette boards are full of supporting vendors and they for the most part have great reputations. Somehow a car that sells as good as the Mustang in general doesnt see that kind of support from dealerships.
I despise the car buying experience. My last one was a few years back and it was very simple until I got the the finance guy. They didnt make much off of me and the finance guy was going to make it up for all of them. After some idle chit chat he told me that Mach 1's made 400 hp at the wheels. My BS antenna came all the way up and I caught him in 2 major mistakes that he blew off. I told him if I catch a third the deal was off and I would fly back home. Suddenly his math improved. I WAS NOT bluffing either. I threw the dealership under the bus on the survey because of this guy. The fact is, I dont like doing business with liars and theives. Why cant things be straight up?
Now, I refuse to pay even msrp for any car. Let me admit that I did do that one time when I bought a Harley Davidson motorcycle and it still hurts to this day. My how times have changed though for HD. I learned a valuable lesson from this because now used HD motorcycle values are in the gutter imo. People ask big prices but they seldom get what they are asking. The market is flooded with them and to be honest they are not all that great of a product.
I understand that when people can afford things they tend to get a little itchy when something new is out. I have lived long enough and have learned that better deals will be had later on. While I despise dealership tactics in general they are not to blame for the ADM's. Its the people who pay them and I mean no disrepect to you by saying that. You have to do your homework first and be patient. Dont be afraid to travel 1000 plus miles to make a major purchase either.
I guess dealerships hate me as much as I hate them in general. I wish you the best with your Bullitt when it comes in. I really like them.
I just want to add that I wish I could go to my local dealer and my sales guy and get the price straight up with no BS to go with it and not have to worry about being stabbed in the back. I would be willing to pay a little more if I could trust somebody. I dont understand why dealers dont understand this concept.
I am absolutly amazed at the lack of other people in Ford dealerships that dont take time to post on these boards. The corvette boards are full of supporting vendors and they for the most part have great reputations. Somehow a car that sells as good as the Mustang in general doesnt see that kind of support from dealerships.
I despise the car buying experience. My last one was a few years back and it was very simple until I got the the finance guy. They didnt make much off of me and the finance guy was going to make it up for all of them. After some idle chit chat he told me that Mach 1's made 400 hp at the wheels. My BS antenna came all the way up and I caught him in 2 major mistakes that he blew off. I told him if I catch a third the deal was off and I would fly back home. Suddenly his math improved. I WAS NOT bluffing either. I threw the dealership under the bus on the survey because of this guy. The fact is, I dont like doing business with liars and theives. Why cant things be straight up?
Now, I refuse to pay even msrp for any car. Let me admit that I did do that one time when I bought a Harley Davidson motorcycle and it still hurts to this day. My how times have changed though for HD. I learned a valuable lesson from this because now used HD motorcycle values are in the gutter imo. People ask big prices but they seldom get what they are asking. The market is flooded with them and to be honest they are not all that great of a product.
I understand that when people can afford things they tend to get a little itchy when something new is out. I have lived long enough and have learned that better deals will be had later on. While I despise dealership tactics in general they are not to blame for the ADM's. Its the people who pay them and I mean no disrepect to you by saying that. You have to do your homework first and be patient. Dont be afraid to travel 1000 plus miles to make a major purchase either.
I guess dealerships hate me as much as I hate them in general. I wish you the best with your Bullitt when it comes in. I really like them.
I just want to add that I wish I could go to my local dealer and my sales guy and get the price straight up with no BS to go with it and not have to worry about being stabbed in the back. I would be willing to pay a little more if I could trust somebody. I dont understand why dealers dont understand this concept.
12/27/07, 06:57 AM
#3
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Dude... if you don't want to pay the ADM then cancel the order. Unless you signed something indicating that the deposit was non-refundable then they're obligated to give you the deposit back. There's also a chance that they'll try to re-negotiate the deal to keep you from walking.
Now that you've educated yourself in some of the ways to get around the dealership hassle I'd highly recommend taking this knowledge and putting it to use.
Can you buy at X-plan? Heck yea... first thing you need to do is get an X-plan pin. How do you do this? Easy... find someone you know that gets X-plan pins to give you one. If you don't know anyone with access to an X-plan pin, go to a Ford-related forum and request one. While there's no guarantee its very possible that someone will be able to provide you with one.
Next find a dealership that will sell to you at X-plan (not always as easy). If the first one won't, take your business elsewhere. Even if you have to purchase from a dealership across the country check out your options as it MAY still be more cost effective a solution. Never limit your search.
Another way to buy might be to go to your local Credit Union and see if they offer a car buying service. Many of these services will negotiate the price for you. There's no obligation to buy through them and you might just find a deal. The downside is that many of these services work better for purchasing cars on the dealer lot.
Now that you've educated yourself in some of the ways to get around the dealership hassle I'd highly recommend taking this knowledge and putting it to use.
Can you buy at X-plan? Heck yea... first thing you need to do is get an X-plan pin. How do you do this? Easy... find someone you know that gets X-plan pins to give you one. If you don't know anyone with access to an X-plan pin, go to a Ford-related forum and request one. While there's no guarantee its very possible that someone will be able to provide you with one.
Next find a dealership that will sell to you at X-plan (not always as easy). If the first one won't, take your business elsewhere. Even if you have to purchase from a dealership across the country check out your options as it MAY still be more cost effective a solution. Never limit your search.
Another way to buy might be to go to your local Credit Union and see if they offer a car buying service. Many of these services will negotiate the price for you. There's no obligation to buy through them and you might just find a deal. The downside is that many of these services work better for purchasing cars on the dealer lot.
12/27/07, 07:37 AM
#4
Team Mustang Source
Check into www.blueovalforums.com and request an x-plan pin from the members there. Most of them are Ford employees, and they get several pin #'s a year to give out to friends and family. You could be their friend, it happens all the time.
12/27/07, 07:53 AM
#5
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None of us want to get screwed on a car deal- or any deal for that matter.
But $2500 over MSRP is not a hell of a lot, plus you are getting ONE. Do you want to go on a waiting list of 60 people and not get one? Do you want to go from dealer to dealer trying to find one?
For sure make a few calls and see what you find, even call the dealer who sold you the car and ask about x plan.
Be thankful you're living in the US, I'm in Canada and I'm paying 36k WITH x plan for my Bullitt. Despite our dollar being on par with the US greenback we are still paying 8k more for the Bullitt up here. Then add another 13% for federal and provincial taxes on top of that!!!!
Honestly- you've got nothing to complain about.
But $2500 over MSRP is not a hell of a lot, plus you are getting ONE. Do you want to go on a waiting list of 60 people and not get one? Do you want to go from dealer to dealer trying to find one?
For sure make a few calls and see what you find, even call the dealer who sold you the car and ask about x plan.
Be thankful you're living in the US, I'm in Canada and I'm paying 36k WITH x plan for my Bullitt. Despite our dollar being on par with the US greenback we are still paying 8k more for the Bullitt up here. Then add another 13% for federal and provincial taxes on top of that!!!!
Honestly- you've got nothing to complain about.
12/27/07, 08:09 AM
#7
I've been trying to buy a GT500 for a year at MSRP. In my 52 years, dealing with Ford dealerships has been the most frustrating experience I've ever had in trying to buy a new car. It's bad enough that you get hosed for some ridiculous amount over MSRP, but it adds insult to injury when the salespeople don't know anything about their product.
There are some good Ford salespeople out there, I know. They just don't seem to live in my part of the country.
There are some good Ford salespeople out there, I know. They just don't seem to live in my part of the country.
12/27/07, 09:05 AM
#8
Legacy TMS Member
Steps to a happier 2008 Bullitt buying experience -
1) Accept the fact that you are trying to buy a limited production car and will have to be more informed, patient, and strategic in your purchase actions
2) Spec out your options and then determine your bottom line price (under MSRP, MSRP, over MSRP) and stick with it
3) Use the information and suggestions from the helpful Ford salespeople who post to this forum to understand what you can do other than what you have done so far
4) Leave the "battles with the evil empire" for another day - seriously, if you really want the car, "don't get mad, get informed!"
As infuriating as this might be, it doesn't matter whether you buy a Toyota, Mitsubishi, BMW, etc. - if the car is limited in production, it's going to take some more work to get it.
Hang in there, and I do hope you can get your car for a price you think is fair.
1) Accept the fact that you are trying to buy a limited production car and will have to be more informed, patient, and strategic in your purchase actions
2) Spec out your options and then determine your bottom line price (under MSRP, MSRP, over MSRP) and stick with it
3) Use the information and suggestions from the helpful Ford salespeople who post to this forum to understand what you can do other than what you have done so far
4) Leave the "battles with the evil empire" for another day - seriously, if you really want the car, "don't get mad, get informed!"
As infuriating as this might be, it doesn't matter whether you buy a Toyota, Mitsubishi, BMW, etc. - if the car is limited in production, it's going to take some more work to get it.
Hang in there, and I do hope you can get your car for a price you think is fair.
12/27/07, 09:35 AM
#9
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
You can discard depending on loyalty and diplomacy as a means to be fairly treated and face the reality it is a useless approach to wasting time and effort. The solution is no purchases other than Mustangs and no referrals. We might be in love with Ford but the fact is there are many quality and appealing alternatives available.
12/27/07, 09:40 AM
#10
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You can discard depending on loyalty and diplomacy as a means to be fairly treated and face the reality it is a useless approach to wasting time and effort. The solution is no purchases other than Mustangs and no referrals. We might be in love with Ford but the fact is there are many quality and appealing alternatives available.
Yeah, can't start complaining about Ford's yet though or everyone I know who drive's everything else will be all like "James! We told you not to buy a Ford! Duh!"
12/27/07, 10:11 AM
#11
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
That would be useless as well. I'm just stating there are risks and a price to pay for infidelity. Most people who are married understand that concept, Ford and their dealers are no exception. My local dealer for one, can attest to that fact.
12/27/07, 10:46 AM
#12
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charliehorse, while I certainly feel bad that you've had two dealers try to stick you with a steep ADM, keep in mind that there are 3700 Ford dealers in the USA, so you have 3698 more to contact before you give up.
I am proud to work for a Ford dealership that is not adding any ADM's to Bullitts. We didn't in 2001 and we aren't in 2008 either. However, I've had several members here who have PM'd me asking if I'd order them one, and I will not. I am totally 100% anonymous on Mustang forums so that I can enjoy being an enthusiast first and foremost. I've owned 6 Mustangs, so I'm here to share info, not sell cars.
That said, try a major metropolitan area like Seattle, Tacoma, or Portland where you'll find dozens of Ford dealers jam packed together so tight that they have to really compete to earn your business! You'll get a much better deal than shopping at your local, rural dealer or a dealer that is anywhere in sunny SoCal where they have more customers than cars.
Cancel the order you have ASAP and get your deposit back. Start searching a little wider for that MSRP (or better) deal. The extra month or two you end up having to wait for your Bullitt is nothing compared to the many years you will likely own this special car and that extra time waiting will be soon forgotten the first time you fire up your Bullitt and do your best Steve McQueen impersonation!
Go to www.FordDirect.com and email any and all Ford dealers anywhere within a comfortable drive (or flight) and see what kind of responses you get. Inquiring online is free and doesn't obligate you to anything, but it will help you weed out the garbage dealers and find what you're after!
I am proud to work for a Ford dealership that is not adding any ADM's to Bullitts. We didn't in 2001 and we aren't in 2008 either. However, I've had several members here who have PM'd me asking if I'd order them one, and I will not. I am totally 100% anonymous on Mustang forums so that I can enjoy being an enthusiast first and foremost. I've owned 6 Mustangs, so I'm here to share info, not sell cars.
That said, try a major metropolitan area like Seattle, Tacoma, or Portland where you'll find dozens of Ford dealers jam packed together so tight that they have to really compete to earn your business! You'll get a much better deal than shopping at your local, rural dealer or a dealer that is anywhere in sunny SoCal where they have more customers than cars.
Cancel the order you have ASAP and get your deposit back. Start searching a little wider for that MSRP (or better) deal. The extra month or two you end up having to wait for your Bullitt is nothing compared to the many years you will likely own this special car and that extra time waiting will be soon forgotten the first time you fire up your Bullitt and do your best Steve McQueen impersonation!
Go to www.FordDirect.com and email any and all Ford dealers anywhere within a comfortable drive (or flight) and see what kind of responses you get. Inquiring online is free and doesn't obligate you to anything, but it will help you weed out the garbage dealers and find what you're after!
12/27/07, 11:24 AM
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12/27/07, 12:54 PM
#14
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There's a lot of good advice for you on this board charliehorse. And I do hope you can get a Bullitt at a "nice price". I only have two recommendations for you:1./ Get your deposit back and give it to a dealer who truly wants and appreciates your business, and 2./ Listen to Five Oh Brian. Wise advice. Good luck!
12/27/07, 01:05 PM
#15
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they'd curl your toenails around your butt!
Re: other comments... Thanx for the suggestions & counsel but I had to sign a 'Non-Refundable' deposit so they would place my order. I'd probably have to pay yet another lawyer to get out of it. (Now there's a reputable industry!) I'm kinda tired of 5 yrs of legal battles ya know? Even with victory against the Gov and keeping my horse ranch out of ex's hands, all battles come with a price. My efforts will be aimed at shaming the CEO's out of the $2500 or face relentless adverse publicity - of which I'm just getting warmed up. Regardless if I'm successful, I'll feel better!
Plus anywhere out of State will cost me 7%+ sales tax. And I tried the Costco recommended Dealer in Portland (twice) and they were worse. Perhaps other newbies can learn from my experience.
Glad to be 5yrs single and in love with a CAR again!
12/27/07, 01:20 PM
#16
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Not true! We sell to out-of-staters frequently and if their home state does not have a sales tax (like Oregon, Alaska, Montana, etc.) then we do not collect sales tax or licensing. You just pay for the car, Washington's $50 documentary service fee, and a 3-day trip permit (about $30) so you can drive back to your home state legally and get your own state's licensing.
Also, I can't fathom that dealers are still demanding non-refundable deposits. We don't hesitate to refund deposits when a customer changes their mind.
Also, I can't fathom that dealers are still demanding non-refundable deposits. We don't hesitate to refund deposits when a customer changes their mind.
12/27/07, 01:38 PM
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I have no idea if that so called non refundable deposit would hold up in court or not but I would have a lawyer on it before the sun went down. You know the dealership doesnt want one of those guys calling. It would not hurt to at least call one and ask about it. It may save you some serious money. Good luck!
12/27/07, 01:52 PM
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Hey... if these walls could talk...
they'd curl your toenails around your butt!
Re: other comments... Thanx for the suggestions & counsel but I had to sign a 'Non-Refundable' deposit so they would place my order. I'd probably have to pay yet another lawyer to get out of it. (Now there's a reputable industry!) I'm kinda tired of 5 yrs of legal battles ya know? Even with victory against the Gov and keeping my horse ranch out of ex's hands, all battles come with a price. My efforts will be aimed at shaming the CEO's out of the $2500 or face relentless adverse publicity - of which I'm just getting warmed up. Regardless if I'm successful, I'll feel better!
Plus anywhere out of State will cost me 7%+ sales tax. And I tried the Costco recommended Dealer in Portland (twice) and they were worse. Perhaps other newbies can learn from my experience.
Glad to be 5yrs single and in love with a CAR again!
they'd curl your toenails around your butt!
Re: other comments... Thanx for the suggestions & counsel but I had to sign a 'Non-Refundable' deposit so they would place my order. I'd probably have to pay yet another lawyer to get out of it. (Now there's a reputable industry!) I'm kinda tired of 5 yrs of legal battles ya know? Even with victory against the Gov and keeping my horse ranch out of ex's hands, all battles come with a price. My efforts will be aimed at shaming the CEO's out of the $2500 or face relentless adverse publicity - of which I'm just getting warmed up. Regardless if I'm successful, I'll feel better!
Plus anywhere out of State will cost me 7%+ sales tax. And I tried the Costco recommended Dealer in Portland (twice) and they were worse. Perhaps other newbies can learn from my experience.
Glad to be 5yrs single and in love with a CAR again!
And at least you won't have to worry about closet encroachment anymore. My clothes hang in the garage now. Doh! 
Hail to the man in the arena!
Mike
12/27/07, 02:00 PM
#19
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Not true! We sell to out-of-staters frequently and if their home state does not have a sales tax (like Oregon, Alaska, Montana, etc.) then we do not collect sales tax or licensing. You just pay for the car, Washington's $50 documentary service fee, and a 3-day trip permit (about $30) so you can drive back to your home state legally and get your own state's licensing.
Also, I can't fathom that dealers are still demanding non-refundable deposits. We don't hesitate to refund deposits when a customer changes their mind.
Also, I can't fathom that dealers are still demanding non-refundable deposits. We don't hesitate to refund deposits when a customer changes their mind.
And Cdynaco, by the time the car gets in, the dealer may drop the ADM - also! - keep a sharp eye out on the rebates and incentives - the current ones expire on January 2, 2008. If the next round of incentives for the Mustang includes the Bullitt, then you get the incentives when you buy the car, not when you order it. That's something any Ford dealer has to offer, but if you're this mad at the current dealer - who knows if he'll tell you.
I doubt the incentives will include the Bullitt... but you never can tell.
Also - if you didn't want to pay an ADM, why on God's green Earth did you agree to one in writing? If it's nonegotiable... you're not going to get out of it unless he's a really, really nice guy (or has someone else he can extort- derr... I mean markup more on).
Good luck!
12/27/07, 03:55 PM
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Cdynaco,with all due respect?The bottom line is alot of dealers do it because they can and you have the choice not to. None of us like ADM's but as stated in this thread already there are alternatives.
I really hope you enjoy your new BULLITT,I envy ya,cuz ya have one .
Dealers where I live want 5k and up .
and sooooooooo it goes.
None of us like ADM's but as stated in this thread already there are alternatives.I really hope you enjoy your new BULLITT,I envy ya,cuz ya have one
.Dealers where I live want 5k and up
.and sooooooooo it goes.