TSB concerning aftermarket tuning and modifications
7/2/11, 01:06 AM
#21
7/2/11, 06:34 AM
#24
Guys, let's make something clear; this isn't the same type of motor the 4.6 was. There are many new levels of complexity in the Coyote that the older 4.6s just didn't have. I think right now, some of these "old school" tuners are the ones that are in the worst predicament. You can't apply the same school of thought from the 4.6 on this motor. If you do, you're asking for trouble.
When Ford Racing did the testing on my car, they expressed this to me. They go through the rigors that Ford does as an OEM. They don't disable the safety systems designed into the PCM to squeak out extra power. Sure, they may not make the most power, but if they do so in a safe manner, then the peace of mind is worth the slight loss IMO.
I think it's safe to say that the days of aggressive tuning in the Mustang are coming to an end...
When Ford Racing did the testing on my car, they expressed this to me. They go through the rigors that Ford does as an OEM. They don't disable the safety systems designed into the PCM to squeak out extra power. Sure, they may not make the most power, but if they do so in a safe manner, then the peace of mind is worth the slight loss IMO.
I think it's safe to say that the days of aggressive tuning in the Mustang are coming to an end...
7/2/11, 06:53 AM
#25
Shelby GT350 Member
Wow...this debate has been renewed by the TSB and it would be good to hear some words from Steeda, Bama, etc.
I can understand Ford's position on this. The problem in a nutshell is that there could be an engine failure that was unrelated to the tune...and it looks like the mere presence of a tune ever having been run, might leave us on the hook.
I agree with the skepticism over being protected by the 1970s era law. This is 2011...the big bucks always win.
I can understand Ford's position on this. The problem in a nutshell is that there could be an engine failure that was unrelated to the tune...and it looks like the mere presence of a tune ever having been run, might leave us on the hook.
I agree with the skepticism over being protected by the 1970s era law. This is 2011...the big bucks always win.
7/2/11, 08:55 AM
#26
Member
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read these threads and really laugh. Let me start with, I work for a powertrain component supplier and have investigated a couple 100 engine failures due to a supposed safe performance component being installed.
Let me tell you all, the engine manufacturers know what a performance induced/calibration failure looks like. We spend 100's of hours in durability dyno cells doing what the tuners do. The difference, we test for 2000 - 5000 hours to see a) what is the long term inpact, b) does the engine meet end of life emissions and fuel economy standards c) does the engine meet it's b10 and b50 life targets. (B10 = 10% failure and b50 = 50% failure). If your not sure what it means, read a package of light bulbs in your local Home Depot. When the package says lasts 1000 hours, this is the B50 life of the bulb. This means that 50% will fail before 1000 hours and 50 % will last longer.
Ok, regarding warranties... if you want to have Ford or any other manufacturer pay for failures, leave it as it was delivered. If you want to tune, play, tweak or what ever, be prepared to either have you component supplier (and if you read their warranties, they do not cover consequential damage) cover the failure or put some money aside for yourself.
Regarding disconnecting the battery.. don't you think the engine manufacturer would have thought about that? The engine control unit timestamps when the calibrations have be altered, they time stamp when they loose power, they record how much time elapsed between the loss of power and key cycles, and the emissions monitors all reset and require a prescribed number of drive cycles before they set to pass.
If you have a good dealer, they know the fingerprint of someone trying to hide a tune.. been there done that... it takes us about 10 minutes after we download the PCM to figure it out.. we know as much as the tuners do.
You can debate all you want if it is fair, but at the end of the day.. the warranty is for how they built the car for you.. not how you wanted to change it... if you tune.. pull up your pants, roll your dice and stop whining...
OK, I zipped up my flack vest.. hope you all have a great holiday weekend and enjoy your rides.. I'm off to pick up my new one today!
Lid Serra
Let me tell you all, the engine manufacturers know what a performance induced/calibration failure looks like. We spend 100's of hours in durability dyno cells doing what the tuners do. The difference, we test for 2000 - 5000 hours to see a) what is the long term inpact, b) does the engine meet end of life emissions and fuel economy standards c) does the engine meet it's b10 and b50 life targets. (B10 = 10% failure and b50 = 50% failure). If your not sure what it means, read a package of light bulbs in your local Home Depot. When the package says lasts 1000 hours, this is the B50 life of the bulb. This means that 50% will fail before 1000 hours and 50 % will last longer.
Ok, regarding warranties... if you want to have Ford or any other manufacturer pay for failures, leave it as it was delivered. If you want to tune, play, tweak or what ever, be prepared to either have you component supplier (and if you read their warranties, they do not cover consequential damage) cover the failure or put some money aside for yourself.
Regarding disconnecting the battery.. don't you think the engine manufacturer would have thought about that? The engine control unit timestamps when the calibrations have be altered, they time stamp when they loose power, they record how much time elapsed between the loss of power and key cycles, and the emissions monitors all reset and require a prescribed number of drive cycles before they set to pass.
If you have a good dealer, they know the fingerprint of someone trying to hide a tune.. been there done that... it takes us about 10 minutes after we download the PCM to figure it out.. we know as much as the tuners do.
You can debate all you want if it is fair, but at the end of the day.. the warranty is for how they built the car for you.. not how you wanted to change it... if you tune.. pull up your pants, roll your dice and stop whining...
OK, I zipped up my flack vest.. hope you all have a great holiday weekend and enjoy your rides.. I'm off to pick up my new one today!
Lid Serra
7/2/11, 09:15 AM
#27
Shelby GT350 Member
Lid,
Great post... and probably sobering information for many of us who tuned happily in denial.
So my question is this- if someone had run a tune at some point in the past, returned the car to stock and had a failure at some point after the tune was removed, will Ford still try to blame the tune?
For example, I ran a Bama tune for a while, read about some piston failures which freaked me out...(though these failures may or may not have been related to a tune-- people argue about that), so I removed my custorm tune. If there turns out to be an actual problem with the build quality of the engine that causes a failure down the road, would the finger print of my removed tune disqualify me from my warranty?
Is anyone who ever ran a tune, even for a week or a day, going to be screwed?
There is a problem when a giant corporation puts the burden of proof on a consumer...
Great post... and probably sobering information for many of us who tuned happily in denial.
So my question is this- if someone had run a tune at some point in the past, returned the car to stock and had a failure at some point after the tune was removed, will Ford still try to blame the tune?
For example, I ran a Bama tune for a while, read about some piston failures which freaked me out...(though these failures may or may not have been related to a tune-- people argue about that), so I removed my custorm tune. If there turns out to be an actual problem with the build quality of the engine that causes a failure down the road, would the finger print of my removed tune disqualify me from my warranty?
Is anyone who ever ran a tune, even for a week or a day, going to be screwed?
There is a problem when a giant corporation puts the burden of proof on a consumer...
7/2/11, 09:52 AM
#29
Legacy TMS Member Moderator
7/2/11, 09:52 AM
#30
Legacy TMS Member
Lid,
Great post... and probably sobering information for many of us who tuned happily in denial.
So my question is this- if someone had run a tune at some point in the past, returned the car to stock and had a failure at some point after the tune was removed, will Ford still try to blame the tune?
For example, I ran a Bama tune for a while, read about some piston failures which freaked me out...(though these failures may or may not have been related to a tune-- people argue about that), so I removed my custorm tune. If there turns out to be an actual problem with the build quality of the engine that causes a failure down the road, would the finger print of my removed tune disqualify me from my warranty?
Is anyone who ever ran a tune, even for a week or a day, going to be screwed?
There is a problem when a giant corporation puts the burden of proof on a consumer...
Great post... and probably sobering information for many of us who tuned happily in denial.
So my question is this- if someone had run a tune at some point in the past, returned the car to stock and had a failure at some point after the tune was removed, will Ford still try to blame the tune?
For example, I ran a Bama tune for a while, read about some piston failures which freaked me out...(though these failures may or may not have been related to a tune-- people argue about that), so I removed my custorm tune. If there turns out to be an actual problem with the build quality of the engine that causes a failure down the road, would the finger print of my removed tune disqualify me from my warranty?
Is anyone who ever ran a tune, even for a week or a day, going to be screwed?
There is a problem when a giant corporation puts the burden of proof on a consumer...
7/2/11, 10:30 AM
#31
V6 Member
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: NA
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lid,
Great post... and probably sobering information for many of us who tuned happily in denial.
So my question is this- if someone had run a tune at some point in the past, returned the car to stock and had a failure at some point after the tune was removed, will Ford still try to blame the tune?
For example, I ran a Bama tune for a while, read about some piston failures which freaked me out...(though these failures may or may not have been related to a tune-- people argue about that), so I removed my custorm tune. If there turns out to be an actual problem with the build quality of the engine that causes a failure down the road, would the finger print of my removed tune disqualify me from my warranty?
Is anyone who ever ran a tune, even for a week or a day, going to be screwed?
There is a problem when a giant corporation puts the burden of proof on a consumer...
Great post... and probably sobering information for many of us who tuned happily in denial.
So my question is this- if someone had run a tune at some point in the past, returned the car to stock and had a failure at some point after the tune was removed, will Ford still try to blame the tune?
For example, I ran a Bama tune for a while, read about some piston failures which freaked me out...(though these failures may or may not have been related to a tune-- people argue about that), so I removed my custorm tune. If there turns out to be an actual problem with the build quality of the engine that causes a failure down the road, would the finger print of my removed tune disqualify me from my warranty?
Is anyone who ever ran a tune, even for a week or a day, going to be screwed?
There is a problem when a giant corporation puts the burden of proof on a consumer...
So, the only way to really make sure nothing shows up would be to flash back to stock using the SCT device, then go into the dealership for a TSB where they flash over the PCM for an update. Then just leave it at that.
Last edited by orgchem; 7/2/11 at 10:43 AM.
7/2/11, 10:33 AM
#32
V6 Member
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: NA
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What if you go in and have an official PCM update (where they flash over the PCM with a new calibration) based on an issued TSB at the dealership? Then you would theoretically have everything flashed over, starting brand new, from an official Ford tool so that any checksums would match. Obviously wouldn't help if you blow your motor, but it would if you get antsy and want to go back to stock while you still have warranty.
7/2/11, 02:26 PM
#34
Cobra Member
I could give a **** about fighting with the dealer to pay for my mods when something breaks. They're mostly all crooked anyway so the less they do to it the better. I don't let them change my oil. Example, their answer to the engine tick is to throw rear end lube in the motor...what a f&&%%&* joke. A safe tune is not going to destroy these motors. That being said, if it blows due to the known #8 piston issue, the dealer has a dog in the fight. I don't care. I bought my car with no options so I could make it the way I wanted not Ford or anyone else. For me, a muscle car isn't in my yard to keep it bone stock. A good tune, minor bolt ons etc makes me happy not a stock car. If your satisfied with a bone stock mustang so you can have Ford fix your blown #8 piston or fried clutch (and they will still try and weasel out if that too with it being stock), then leave it stock. I only care they fix my power windows ,rattles, water leaks etc. I'll let Steeda fix the blown #8 piston. It's not just ford, most are all like this. I've had issues with Toyota and GM too. It's about money and they aren't here to save you a dime folks.
7/2/11, 09:00 PM
#35
Member
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The longer the time stamp from the date of failure, the less likely it will be used as the cause of failure. What really sets the bells off is when you try to cover it up.
7/2/11, 09:16 PM
#36
Member
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What if you go in and have an official PCM update (where they flash over the PCM with a new calibration) based on an issued TSB at the dealership? Then you would theoretically have everything flashed over, starting brand new, from an official Ford tool so that any checksums would match. Obviously wouldn't help if you blow your motor, but it would if you get antsy and want to go back to stock while you still have warranty.
Another non-automotive example, look at the Microsoft update history on your pc or laptop... it keeps track of all the changes they make with program updates and upgrades.
In reality, the only way to loose the finger prints, is a new ECU, even then we'll know when the ECM was replaced. ECU's take a time stamp from other ECU's on the network to make sure they are in the correct vehicle... most look for the VIN in other controllers and compare their time to the other ECU on times.
What you have to remember, the EPA requires us to make sure that the vehicle emission systems stay in compliance for a long, long time.. well beyond the warranties provided with the vehicle, so we have had to think about how people would try to defeat the system and be able to detect it... sometimes we do it with a check engine light, sometimes we do it in stealth with a event recorder, some even a sealer with a SCT can not see, but a field engineer can retrieve.
What I can say.. if it did blow up, tell your dealer the truth, many times they can work with you. It's not easy for the dealer to ask a customer "Visa or Master Card, because he just turned his motor into a $8000 brick."
It doesn't make you want to come back and buy another. I've been involved in cases where as a good will, the OE has supplied the motor, customer has payed for the labor and the cost to return it to stock, along with a "if it blows again... you own it."
7/3/11, 03:49 AM
#37
Member
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes believe it or not.. they are aftermarket parts.. They even state it themselves. They are not OE sold or installed by the OE. Dealers are not OE's.
Now FRPP have thier own warranty... yes FRPP provides the warranty, not Ford Motor Company.
Here is the policy from FRPP.
The New Limited Warranty Program
All Ford Racing Parts are aftermarket parts. Ford Racing Parts are not Genuine Ford Parts or Accessories. Therefore, they may not be used in any application that requires the use of Genuine Ford Parts or Accessories.
Ford Racing Performance Parts are sold "as is" with no warranty. A Limited Warranty is available for some select parts and will be denoted by the following logo...
1) Crate Engines
Ford Racing Performance Parts warrants the original retail purchaser for 12 months or 12,000 miles on our Performance Crate Engines.
2) FR1 & FR3 Power Packs for the 2005 - 2010 Mustangs and Shelby GT500
The warranty will cover parts and labor to replace defective components on Ford Dealer installed parts only.
- A 3 year / 36,000 mile warranty is applicable if installed at the time of new vehicle delivery
- A 12 month / 12,000 mile warranty is in effect if installed after the date of vehicle delivery but prior to expiration of 3 years / 36,000 mile vehicle warranty
The warranty will cover parts and labor to replace defective components on Ford Dealer installed parts only.
- A 1 year / 12,000 mile warranty is applicable when installed by an Authorized Dealer ( Ford, Lincoln Mercury or Shelby Automotive) prior to the vehicle reaching either 36 months or 36,000 miles (whichever occurs first).
- View Ford Racing Limited Warranty for details
7/3/11, 06:27 AM
#38
V6 Member
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: NA
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ECM keeps a history of the flashes... time, tool, checksum.. so everytime a new flash is made.. a new record... a new flash only overwrites the calibration memory, not the time stamps. Other examples, ECM's record overheats and oil pressure loss for ever... some things we want a history of so we can post mortum an engine.
Another non-automotive example, look at the Microsoft update history on your pc or laptop... it keeps track of all the changes they make with program updates and upgrades.
In reality, the only way to loose the finger prints, is a new ECU, even then we'll know when the ECM was replaced. ECU's take a time stamp from other ECU's on the network to make sure they are in the correct vehicle... most look for the VIN in other controllers and compare their time to the other ECU on times.
What you have to remember, the EPA requires us to make sure that the vehicle emission systems stay in compliance for a long, long time.. well beyond the warranties provided with the vehicle, so we have had to think about how people would try to defeat the system and be able to detect it... sometimes we do it with a check engine light, sometimes we do it in stealth with a event recorder, some even a sealer with a SCT can not see, but a field engineer can retrieve.
What I can say.. if it did blow up, tell your dealer the truth, many times they can work with you. It's not easy for the dealer to ask a customer "Visa or Master Card, because he just turned his motor into a $8000 brick."
It doesn't make you want to come back and buy another. I've been involved in cases where as a good will, the OE has supplied the motor, customer has payed for the labor and the cost to return it to stock, along with a "if it blows again... you own it."
Another non-automotive example, look at the Microsoft update history on your pc or laptop... it keeps track of all the changes they make with program updates and upgrades.
In reality, the only way to loose the finger prints, is a new ECU, even then we'll know when the ECM was replaced. ECU's take a time stamp from other ECU's on the network to make sure they are in the correct vehicle... most look for the VIN in other controllers and compare their time to the other ECU on times.
What you have to remember, the EPA requires us to make sure that the vehicle emission systems stay in compliance for a long, long time.. well beyond the warranties provided with the vehicle, so we have had to think about how people would try to defeat the system and be able to detect it... sometimes we do it with a check engine light, sometimes we do it in stealth with a event recorder, some even a sealer with a SCT can not see, but a field engineer can retrieve.
What I can say.. if it did blow up, tell your dealer the truth, many times they can work with you. It's not easy for the dealer to ask a customer "Visa or Master Card, because he just turned his motor into a $8000 brick."
It doesn't make you want to come back and buy another. I've been involved in cases where as a good will, the OE has supplied the motor, customer has payed for the labor and the cost to return it to stock, along with a "if it blows again... you own it."
(Just kidding obviously)Seriously though, if this is indeed what can be gathered from the ECM, I'm surprised that aftermarket tuners weren't/aren't aware of it. Or maybe they are; all I know is that it isn't usually packaged that way ("Just flash back to stock using the SCT device and they can't tell a thing!").
Of course the onus is really on us as customers to know what we are getting into.
Last edited by orgchem; 7/3/11 at 06:28 AM.
ahhhhh!
7/3/11, 09:03 AM
#40
Member
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What if your car gets struck by lightning and everything electrical gets fried? (Just kidding obviously)
Seriously though, if this is indeed what can be gathered from the ECM, I'm surprised that aftermarket tuners weren't/aren't aware of it. Or maybe they are; all I know is that it isn't usually packaged that way ("Just flash back to stock using the SCT device and they can't tell a thing!").
Of course the onus is really on us as customers to know what we are getting into.
(Just kidding obviously)Seriously though, if this is indeed what can be gathered from the ECM, I'm surprised that aftermarket tuners weren't/aren't aware of it. Or maybe they are; all I know is that it isn't usually packaged that way ("Just flash back to stock using the SCT device and they can't tell a thing!").
Of course the onus is really on us as customers to know what we are getting into.
Back to topic.. would you buy it if they told you you would be stuck.. the first clue something is wrong is the fact you need to flash it back to stock... but then again.. just my humble opinion.
Don't get me wrong.. If you want to tune.. have fun... even my company has a Motorsport group.... their latest project is a 1200 HP Cummins 5.9L for pulling.
The key differences.. OE tunes to let the engine live for 200k plus... our 1200 Cummins only has to live 50 hours, so we can push the envelope and components a little. How long does your tuner state and back their calibration will live?
Last edited by lidserra; 7/3/11 at 09:04 AM. Reason: typo