2010-2014 Mustang Information on The S197 {GenII}

Noob Clutch Questions

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Old 8/18/10, 11:27 PM
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^ agreed, i always put it into neutral and rolled to a stop from as far back as necessary/possible.
Old 8/19/10, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by emilram11
So since we're on the subject of downshifting, I have some questions.

First, more basic. When is it most appropriate to downshift? If you're slowing down is it better to just use the brakes? For most situations when you are slowing down (not going to a complete stop) you are either 1) in low enough gear that you can stay in the same gear when you pick back up in speed 2) or if you are going to stop completely so you'll have to start back in a low gear again anyway -- so braking or putting in neutral, cruising to a stop then starting in 1st again would be fine.

So when is it best to downshift? Can you guys shed some light on this for me?
Everyone will have a different opinion. Generally, if you're approaching a complete stop situation, use your brakes, then as the RPMs get low and the engine lugs, depress the clutch and go into neutral and continue to brake to a complete stop. Some will say not to do this because you're "helpless" in neutral, but I don't worry about it. The timing of this is impossible to explain but comes easily with practice. You can also downshift INSTEAD of brake (or at least delay when you need to start braking), which is more fun, plus you're always in gear so you can respond to unforseen events more quickly. I wouldn't worry about clutch life in doing this type of thing, just don't get in the habit of keeping your foot on the clutch pedal unecessarily. For short durations, it's no biggie, but if you're stopped for a long time, you should be in neutral rather than disengage the gears by depressing the clutch. And never drive with your left foot hovering on the clutch pedal.
Old 8/19/10, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 20115.0
^ agreed, i always put it into neutral and rolled to a stop from as far back as necessary/possible.


Yep, it may seem a bit strange to be a "hypermiler" in a Mustang GT, but "coasting is free" . . .

I've never thought about this aspect of being "helpless" in neutral, and after you've driven a stick for a while shifting becomes sub-concious anyway so getting back into gear is less than a second away.

Whenever I see an opportunity, I always put it in neutral and coast -- this could be approaching a stoplight, on a long downhill, when there is slower traffic ahead, whatever . . . if you can be covering distance with the engine idling, you are using the "potential energy" of the moving car while burning minimal gas.

When slowing down, I usually leave it in neutral and use the brakes . . . I do wonder about the trade-off between brake pads, clutch discs, and gas . . . but like I think I heard some performance drivers say, "brakes are for slowing down, the engine and clutch are for speeding up" (or something like that)

Then again, for more "spirited" driving, downshifting is more fun!
Old 8/19/10, 08:51 AM
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haha

i didnt think of being helpless either but then as you said, over the coarse of a few months shifting is second nature so i dont think id ever have to worry about getting back into gear quick enough.
Old 8/19/10, 09:39 PM
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The following can be found here: http://www.powellmotorsport.com/inde...display&pid=11
CLUTCH WORK STARTING OFF Starting Off- Please don’t slip the clutch!
Starting off requires a driver to engage first gear and bring the clutch pedal up to the point of take-off. Hesitate slightly as the pedal reaches clutch engagement, give it a little gas, and bring the foot promptly off the clutch pedal and onto the dead pedal or the firewall. Don’t slip the clutch. Most clutches are tough and strong and will last almost forever, provided they are not slipped. Slipping the clutch or riding the clutch - leaving your foot resting on the clutch pedal while driving - ruins the release bearing and creates heat which kills clutch linings.
Some cars are easier to launch than others, and this is generally due to two things. Some cars are easier to launch smoothly, thanks to a progressive throttle linkage ratio. And some cars have a very low or very high first gear.
A progressive linkage opens the throttle faster, the more the gas pedal is pressed to the floor. That makes it easier to start off smoothly, and like we said before, smoothness is the key. More cars are on the road these days with “drive by wire” connections, no physical linkage to the throttle body – it is all done by a variable electrical impulse control from the car's computer, reading the information from the gas pedal. So if the computer folks have done their job the “wireless linkage” should be progressive.
The other thing that affects smooth launch is the gear ratio in first and then second gear. Very low ratios can make the first to second shift hard to produce smoothly, and very high ratios require “slipping” the clutch to avoid stalling.
DECLUTCHING…
The left foot disengages the clutch as the right foot comes off the gas pedal. Actually, the gas pedal is released a fraction of a second before the clutch is disengaged. This slight decelerating load assists the hand in taking the gears out of mesh. The clutch stays disengaged while the hand moves the gearshift lever.
On slippery roads and in skid control, declutching helps take away the disturbing forces at the rear wheels. That helps ABS control and can actually stop a spin as the car rotates so quickly when a driver gets caught out driving on ice or snow.
FUEL SHUT OFF/ON…
If you, as a driver, are very sensitive to the car on deceleration, you may feel a very slight jerk as the car reduces speed. That could be because the fuel supply shuts off in deceleration and reopens as engine speed reduces to the idle level to prevent stalling. In newer cars, the typical fuel management system smooths out the fuel shut off/on better than the previous systems. Declutching a little early as you come to a stop can eliminate the surge completely.
DON’T BLIP ON THE UP-SHIFT…
While up shifting, the right foot stays off the gas pedal and the clutch foot engages the clutch once the gear is properly engaged. Up shifting requires less engine speed and, for that reason, there should be no revving of the engine during the shift - unless you are a café racer - or the gear ratio split is so large and the gears so heavy that the time taken to shift requires re-establishing engine speed to match nominal gear speed. Large class 8 tractors are like this.
DOUBLE AXIS/SPRING BIASED SHIFTER…
The 1989 to 94 Corvettes had a ZF six-speed shifter that has a double axis linkage, the shift lever movement is curved and is spring biased to the 3-4 shift row. So, for the four-three downshift and the five-four downshift, relax the pressure on the shift lever, and let the lever go where it wants. If you force it, you will find first instead of third in a five-four shift. the clutch will blow up or the car will spin out into a guard rail! The same thing applies to the six speed Tremec 56 Transmission in the C5 and C6 Corvettes, Mustangs and Vipers. Corvettes are a little different, as these cars have a rear mounted transmission. The transmission has a long shift arm and a torque tube with an internal drive shaft. This causes a lot of inertia in the drive train when shifting. Take your time shifting. What that means to most folks, is that rushing the shift is not a good thing. So take your time, get it right.
Cars with a four or five speed shifter have the neutral gate in a neutral zone, with 1/2 on one side and 2/4 on the other with fifth a dog leg forward, or back depending on the car.
DOWN-SHIFTING…
To downshift, the technique is more complicated and requires timing, skill and practice. For the same constant speed, the engine revs must increase as the gearbox is shifted down from fourth to third and so on. Thus, when the gear lever pauses in neutral on the way down, the engine revs must be increased by prodding the gas pedal with the right foot. This is called 'blipping' the gas pedal. How much the pedal must be 'blipped' depends on the speed of the car and the ratio split between gears (close-ratio gears require less blipping). It’s easy to understand that as speed and engine revs increase, although the gear ratio remains the same, the rev numbers get larger and the revs required to match engine speed to gear speed will be more.
RETURN TO THE DEAD PEDAL…
In between completed shifts, the right hand must always return to the steering wheel and the left foot must always return to the dead pedal quickly, off the clutch pedal!! In fact, there is a considerable advantage to be gained by actively pressing the left foot on the dead pedal as it helps brace your body in the seat. This takes the weight off the hands and right foot enabling better control.
DOUBLE CLUTCHING…
On some cars with large, heavy gears or with shift mechanism problems, it is necessary to double clutch. This consists of releasing the clutch pedal to engage “drive” while the gear lever is in the “neutral position”. Thus, a positive spin of the gearbox mainshaft occurs to facilitate matching of gear revs and thus selection of the nest gear. With modern gearboxes - both synchromesh and non-synchromesh - it isn’t necessary (or even desirable) to double clutch.
HEEL AND TOE…
“Heel and Toe” refers to the practice of simultaneously braking and blipping the gas with the right foot. This technique received its name from the simple movements required to perform the action when the gas pedal was located away from the brake pedal. I don’t recommend that you use this technique for everyday driving; better to leave yourself sufficient time to brake, then downshift, then brake some more.
The race driver, on the other-hand, must “heel and toe” to save time. In point of fact, the driver uses the ball and side of the foot to press the pedals. To simultaneously brake and downshift, the right foot brakes using two-thirds of the ball of the foot on the brake pedal, and then rolls over to engage the gas pedal with the side of the foot while still braking.

TIPS:
  • cup the lever for the 3-2 downshift then wrap the fingers around the shift ****.
  • keep fingers closed and across the shift **** for the 4-5 shift.
  • Wear shoes that facilitate the job – large boots or sandals don’t work.
BRIDGING THE GAP…
Most cars have the gas pedal and brake pedal in good proximity, both in terms of position and travel. But if the pedals aren’t spaced to suit your foot, it can help to bend them, or make an extension. Riveting a small piece of aluminum on to the gas pedal and the brake pedal is the procedure used by most race teams. Any modifications to the pedals of a production car should be considered carefully, it should be for racing only and performed by professional fabricators.
Now that we have covered the basics of shifting, there must be a discussion as to how…and when to shift gears.
BRAKE THEN SHIFT…
To avoid grossly over-revving the engine beyond its normal range, you first slow the car before you down shift. Make a rule: “Brake, then Shift”. Another rule: “Dropping down a gear or more is not a means of slowing the car - unless the brakes have disappeared.” Many high end sports cars have great brakes that don’t require the assistance of the gearbox and the engine braking effects to slow down. In fact, doing so can hinder accurate brake modulation and balance.
RACING TECHNIQUE…
The race driver shifts down to the appropriate gear during the approach to a corner so that he can drive through the corner at peak torque and accelerate out in peak power.
Is there a reason to shift down the gearbox sequentially? No reason at all, unless you feel like practicing your shifting or wish to impress spectators with your mastery of the gearbox. The more shifting you have to perform going down through the gears when approaching a corner, the less likely you are to miss a shift, over-rev the engine and overshoot the corner.
There are exceptions, particularly when approaching a tight hairpin from a long straight. Shifting from fourth overdrive directly to first gear might require too long a pause, which would cause the engine revs to drop significantly past the operating range of the engine. Then, when blipping the gas, the engine might fail to pick up. In this case, a 4-2-1 shift sequence would be required.
ROAD DRIVING…
The road driver, when approaching a slower corner... brakes, downshifts to the appropriate gear and then negotiates the corner. He doesn’t downshift at all when approaching a stop sign - unless he’s practicing downshifting or enjoys doing it.
KEEP THE EYES UP!
When matching revs, don’t study the tachometer. The eyes must look ahead to the corner, not at the instruments or pedals, when down-shifting. The task of matching engine revs, of blipping the required amount, depends on practice and assistance from the ears and pressure on the body. If a driver doesn’t blip sufficiently, the wheels will momentarily lock when the clutch is re-engaged. Disaster! If the driver blips too much, the car will leap forward - or at least attempt to do so - which could be equally disastrous. The best method is to blip the revs up slightly in excess of the revs required, push the lever into gear from neutral as the revs drop, and quickly release the clutch.
SHIFTING GEARS
Why Six Speeds?
Why do we need six speeds, anyway? Well the performance potential for a typical Corvette for example is more than 160 miles an hour, and Corvette for example chose to provide a gearbox that retains drive-ability and practicality as well as phenomenal top speed potential, even though the Corvette has a large displacement 500 h.p V-8 engine. Many of the European exotics have high top speed potential as well, and offer customers a six- speed transmission. The future is obviously “paddle shifted” gearboxes: steering wheel mounted controls that electronically shift a manual transmission. Paddle shifting is available on many cars, including the Ferrari Stradale and 430 Challenge cars. It is really very good.
BACK to Basics…
SMOOTHNESS AND PRECISION are the keys; and don’t forget BE GENTLE. Most mistakes involving gear changes are due to mismatching of engine-to-gear revs going down the gearbox, leaving the shifting too late, or forcing the shift lever.
A THREE-PART MOTION WITH THE RIGHT HAND – BE GENTLE…
Changing gears is a three-part motion with the right hand: Out of the gear you are in and into neutral; Pause; and Shift into the next gear, shifting up or down. The pause is important, and as one becomes more proficient, this pause becomes nothing more than a relaxation of pressure. Hand position is important too... cup the palm to the left when shifting from first to second. Then rotate the wrist so the palm moves the lever to the right for second to third, and down and back for third to fourth. Cup the hand to the right for the four-five shift, and with the same wrist rotation move from five to six. The thumb, three fingers and your palm are all you need for gear shift guidance. Be gentle but firm with the hand movements. And remember the advice your father always gave you: DON’T FORCE IT!
Old 8/19/10, 10:40 PM
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Good post^^^^. Thanks!

This part makes me nervous:
When matching revs, don’t study the tachometer. The eyes must look ahead to the corner, not at the instruments or pedals, when down-shifting. The task of matching engine revs, of blipping the required amount, depends on practice and assistance from the ears and pressure on the body. If a driver doesn’t blip sufficiently, the wheels will momentarily lock when the clutch is re-engaged. Disaster! If the driver blips too much, the car will leap forward - or at least attempt to do so - which could be equally disastrous. The best method is to blip the revs up slightly in excess of the revs required, push the lever into gear from neutral as the revs drop, and quickly release the clutch.

Should I be worried?
Old 8/20/10, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bellamr
The following can be found here: http://www.powellmotorsport.com/inde...display&pid=11
[INDENT]CLUTCH WORK STARTING OFF Starting Off- Please don’t slip the clutch!
Starting off requires a driver to engage first gear and bring the clutch pedal up to the point of take-off. Hesitate slightly as the pedal reaches clutch engagement, give it a little gas, and bring the foot promptly off the clutch pedal and onto the dead pedal or the firewall.
Wow, now I am confused . . . I'm a mechanical engineer who's been operating vehicles with clutches since the early '70's and after all these years I realize that I don't know what "slip the clutch" means ?????

I always thought "slipping the clutch" meant anytime when the clutch plates are partially engaged but not completely; meaning the plates are "slipping" with respect to each other, so that the engine can be turning faster or slower than the transmission, but still transmitting some power. In my mind this "slipping" is key to smoothness; without this "slipping" you would be instantly engaging disengaging the clutch, which I always though was called "popping the clutch" which is very jerky. (great way to spin the tires if you want to)

So when this guy says "don't slip the clutch" what the heck is he talking about? Is he suggesting that you pop the clutch on every start?
Old 8/20/10, 07:15 AM
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You are right, some slipping of the clutch is necessary for smoothness and will cause no damage.

There are some other mis-statements in the post that make me wonder. For example...
If you force it, you will find first instead of third in a five-four shift. the clutch will blow up or the car will spin out into a guard rail!
How can you possibly end up in either first or third during a five-four shift? Five to four is a single direction... going to first or third would require a reversal of direction. And you won't blow up your clutch unless you're dumb enough to just dump your foot off the clutch and allow the over-rev situation.
Old 8/20/10, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bert
Wow, now I am confused . . . I'm a mechanical engineer who's been operating vehicles with clutches since the early '70's and after all these years I realize that I don't know what "slip the clutch" means ?????

I always thought "slipping the clutch" meant anytime when the clutch plates are partially engaged but not completely; meaning the plates are "slipping" with respect to each other, so that the engine can be turning faster or slower than the transmission, but still transmitting some power. In my mind this "slipping" is key to smoothness; without this "slipping" you would be instantly engaging disengaging the clutch, which I always though was called "popping the clutch" which is very jerky. (great way to spin the tires if you want to)

So when this guy says "don't slip the clutch" what the heck is he talking about? Is he suggesting that you pop the clutch on every start?
You dont need to slip the clutch to be smooth anymore. Just a quick lift with just the right amount of gas. I guess it is sort of like popping the clutch just at a low rpm. But the car wont jerk at all. It is actually super easy to be smooth. These new fangled clutches and stuff
Old 8/21/10, 09:45 AM
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+1 on this whole thread. Thanks, all, for your viewpoints. Now I need to go practice.
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