How much will I feel the extra 100hp and torque?
12/22/09, 06:48 AM
#41
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+ 1.
Edelbrock has tried to convince us that their E-Force blower makes 466 flywheel hp (roughly 395 rwhp) with just 5 psi boost on an otherwise stock 300 hp 4.6L 3V. That would be about 120 rwhp improvement from just 5 psi - yeah right! I've seen a couple of them in person at our local dyno make the advertised hp #'s on stock 4.6L 3V's, but the boost guage sure wasn't reading 5 psi. Try more like 7.5-8 psi, which makes more sense.
I picked up 124 rwhp over stock with my Vortech V2 blower which is rated at 8.5-9.5 psi on an otherwise stock 4.6L 3V at 6,000 rpm's. I'm actually at 11 psi at my 6,400 rpm shift points, so I'm seeing 124 rwhp gain at 11 psi boost.
Edelbrock has tried to convince us that their E-Force blower makes 466 flywheel hp (roughly 395 rwhp) with just 5 psi boost on an otherwise stock 300 hp 4.6L 3V. That would be about 120 rwhp improvement from just 5 psi - yeah right! I've seen a couple of them in person at our local dyno make the advertised hp #'s on stock 4.6L 3V's, but the boost guage sure wasn't reading 5 psi. Try more like 7.5-8 psi, which makes more sense.
I picked up 124 rwhp over stock with my Vortech V2 blower which is rated at 8.5-9.5 psi on an otherwise stock 4.6L 3V at 6,000 rpm's. I'm actually at 11 psi at my 6,400 rpm shift points, so I'm seeing 124 rwhp gain at 11 psi boost.
Let's do the math: The new 5.0L is 412 flywheel hp, which should yield about 350 rwhp with a manual transmission. Bolt on a 6 psi blower and you're adding 40% more airflow (6/14.7 psi). Factor in inefficiencies of roughly 20% (that's being generous) and you'd end up with about 32% more airflow instead of 40%. That puts you at roughly 460 rwhp. For a more specific example, I know that a Vortech V3 Si-trim blower is 78% efficient, so with 6 psi boost that would net you a best case scenario of 31% improvement, bringing the new 5.0L to about 455 rwhp.
12/22/09, 07:18 AM
#42
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On the subject of torque, consider the following!
Here are some n/a motors from Europe, except for the Stang's. All direct-injected, except for the Stang's.
Ferrari's 458 from it's 4.5 litre, 9000rpm d.i. V8, has 120Nm/litre.
Mustang (2011) Mustang GT, 105.8Nm/litre.
Merc's SLS AMG is powered by a 6208cc V8 engine, called the M159, has 104.8Nm/litre.
Porsche's d.i. 4.8 litre V8 in the Panamera has 104.2Nm/litre.
Jaguar's new d.i. 5 litre V8, 102Nm/litre.
Lexus 5 litre V8, 101.7Nm/litre.
And, how many times cheaper is the Mustang compared to some of those cars listed above?
F150's 5 litre is said to have less power, but more torque than Mustang's version of Coyote. Or maybe the same (or even less) torque, but peaking very quickly?
A big well done to Ford US for putting out a dynamite motor, but also very affordable.
The 2012 n/a motor will be insane, but even still, the 2011 Mustang GT is the poor man's M3. A few months back a 5 litre mule went quicker than the M3 around one of the circuits; gotta love that!
Here are some n/a motors from Europe, except for the Stang's. All direct-injected, except for the Stang's.
Ferrari's 458 from it's 4.5 litre, 9000rpm d.i. V8, has 120Nm/litre.
Mustang (2011) Mustang GT, 105.8Nm/litre.
Merc's SLS AMG is powered by a 6208cc V8 engine, called the M159, has 104.8Nm/litre.
Porsche's d.i. 4.8 litre V8 in the Panamera has 104.2Nm/litre.
Jaguar's new d.i. 5 litre V8, 102Nm/litre.
Lexus 5 litre V8, 101.7Nm/litre.
And, how many times cheaper is the Mustang compared to some of those cars listed above?
F150's 5 litre is said to have less power, but more torque than Mustang's version of Coyote. Or maybe the same (or even less) torque, but peaking very quickly?
A big well done to Ford US for putting out a dynamite motor, but also very affordable.
The 2012 n/a motor will be insane, but even still, the 2011 Mustang GT is the poor man's M3. A few months back a 5 litre mule went quicker than the M3 around one of the circuits; gotta love that!
Last edited by Falc'man; 12/22/09 at 07:21 AM.
12/22/09, 07:51 AM
#43
I Have No Life
I don't think it'll have more torque than the stangs,
but I have a feeling (like the BOSS) it will be tuned to be more useable in truck-style towing and hauling as opposed to 'lets have bragging rights in peak #s'
I made a comment about this on CZ28 the other day, as people were saying how they were disappointed in the #s the 6.2L was putting out. They aren't meant to go fast down the track, they are tuned for moving things, so true that looking at peak #s while telling a story, aren't NEARLY the complete picture of what the engine was made for, or is doing.
but I have a feeling (like the BOSS) it will be tuned to be more useable in truck-style towing and hauling as opposed to 'lets have bragging rights in peak #s'
I made a comment about this on CZ28 the other day, as people were saying how they were disappointed in the #s the 6.2L was putting out. They aren't meant to go fast down the track, they are tuned for moving things, so true that looking at peak #s while telling a story, aren't NEARLY the complete picture of what the engine was made for, or is doing.
12/22/09, 08:03 AM
#44
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I don't think it'll have more torque than the stangs,
but I have a feeling (like the BOSS) it will be tuned to be more useable in truck-style towing and hauling as opposed to 'lets have bragging rights in peak #s'
I made a comment about this on CZ28 the other day, as people were saying how they were disappointed in the #s the 6.2L was putting out. They aren't meant to go fast down the track, they are tuned for moving things, so true that looking at peak #s while telling a story, aren't NEARLY the complete picture of what the engine was made for, or is doing.
but I have a feeling (like the BOSS) it will be tuned to be more useable in truck-style towing and hauling as opposed to 'lets have bragging rights in peak #s'
I made a comment about this on CZ28 the other day, as people were saying how they were disappointed in the #s the 6.2L was putting out. They aren't meant to go fast down the track, they are tuned for moving things, so true that looking at peak #s while telling a story, aren't NEARLY the complete picture of what the engine was made for, or is doing.
Different applications require a vastly different power delivery. Example, F truck might get peak 375lbft@3300rpm, GT would have 390@4700rpm. Different cam profiles?
12/22/09, 08:26 AM
#45
I can tell you, as someone that has driven the 2010 GT, the 2010 SS, and the 2009 SRT8, the Mustang had the best "seat of the pants" feel, at least IMO. I can't wait to see what this extra hp in the GT will be like. I think you will most definitely be able to feel a difference.
12/22/09, 10:08 AM
#46
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All very true, but is all of this math not assuming that everything is equal between the 4.6L 3V and the 5.0L 4V? I think it is tough to say how this engine will or will not respond to boost. A lot will have to do with cam timing and how well it can accept the boosted air and then get rid of it. It seems to me that the technology being used here in this engine is something that can't be compared to past technologies under the same circumstances.
So.......... Bolt a 6 psi blower on any motor and you'll get an increase of 6psi/14.7 (roughly 40%), but lose about 25% of that through blower inefficiencies, so you net closer to a 30% gain in power in this example. So, a 5.0L that puts down 350 rwhp will see a 30% increase in power to about 455-460 rwhp. Getting to 500 rwhp is going to take more boost and/or a more efficient supercharger design.
12/22/09, 11:19 AM
#47
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Doesn't matter whether it's a 4.6L or a 5.0L, superchargers are not 100% efficient. It takes power to turn them no matter what engine they're bolted to. Vortech's V2 S-trim like I have is rated at 72% efficiency, while the new V3 Si-trim is rated at 78% efficiency. That means you're using up 22-28% of the gained power just to turn the dang blower. Same is true for all blowers.
So.......... Bolt a 6 psi blower on any motor and you'll get an increase of 6psi/14.7 (roughly 40%), but lose about 25% of that through blower inefficiencies, so you net closer to a 30% gain in power in this example. So, a 5.0L that puts down 350 rwhp will see a 30% increase in power to about 455-460 rwhp. Getting to 500 rwhp is going to take more boost and/or a more efficient supercharger design.
So.......... Bolt a 6 psi blower on any motor and you'll get an increase of 6psi/14.7 (roughly 40%), but lose about 25% of that through blower inefficiencies, so you net closer to a 30% gain in power in this example. So, a 5.0L that puts down 350 rwhp will see a 30% increase in power to about 455-460 rwhp. Getting to 500 rwhp is going to take more boost and/or a more efficient supercharger design.
If I take any S/C running 6psi and bolt it up to the 4.6L. Those exhaust manifolds will reach a point where they start to restrict air flow effectivly holding the engine back from making more HP at the same rate it could prior to that point. Let say this happens at 4psi.
Is it not possiable the new "tuned hedders" that are supposed to be offered on the 5.0L could have an effective restriction point of 8psi. At that point I would think it would be safe to say that the 4.6L would have a higher rate of loss at 6psi than the 5.0L at 6psi. In the end allowing the 5.0L to make a greater % of power at 6psi than the 4.6L can.
I guess maybe the easiest was for me to say what I'm trying to say is this.
Individaully parts/components/technologies are worth each there own gain/HP number. But combined the sum of all of the parts/components/technologies would be greater than if added up individually. So can the technologicial advancements the 5.0L offers give us a better total end result?
Last edited by 07S197; 12/22/09 at 11:20 AM.
12/22/09, 12:13 PM
#48
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Doesn't matter whether it's a 4.6L or a 5.0L, superchargers are not 100% efficient. It takes power to turn them no matter what engine they're bolted to. Vortech's V2 S-trim like I have is rated at 72% efficiency, while the new V3 Si-trim is rated at 78% efficiency. That means you're using up 22-28% of the gained power just to turn the dang blower. Same is true for all blowers.
So.......... Bolt a 6 psi blower on any motor and you'll get an increase of 6psi/14.7 (roughly 40%), but lose about 25% of that through blower inefficiencies, so you net closer to a 30% gain in power in this example. So, a 5.0L that puts down 350 rwhp will see a 30% increase in power to about 455-460 rwhp. Getting to 500 rwhp is going to take more boost and/or a more efficient supercharger design.
So.......... Bolt a 6 psi blower on any motor and you'll get an increase of 6psi/14.7 (roughly 40%), but lose about 25% of that through blower inefficiencies, so you net closer to a 30% gain in power in this example. So, a 5.0L that puts down 350 rwhp will see a 30% increase in power to about 455-460 rwhp. Getting to 500 rwhp is going to take more boost and/or a more efficient supercharger design.
I agree with what you say about % of efficiency. With that being said what is the % of efficiency of the 4.6L vs. the 5.0L?
Let say we have two engines, Engine I & Engine II. They both make the exact same 300 HP@6500 RPM. If Engine I is 80% efficient and S/C I is 72% that nets a total of 152%. What if that same S/C I at 72% is bolted to Engine II which is say 85% efficient giving a total of 157%. Would Engine II not make more HP? Engine I making 456HP vs. Engine II making 471HP ?
12/22/09, 11:18 PM
#49
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After reading what you said above again here is what I am saying.
I agree with what you say about % of efficiency. With that being said what is the % of efficiency of the 4.6L vs. the 5.0L?
Let say we have two engines, Engine I & Engine II. They both make the exact same 300 HP@6500 RPM. If Engine I is 80% efficient and S/C I is 72% that nets a total of 152%. What if that same S/C I at 72% is bolted to Engine II which is say 85% efficient giving a total of 157%. Would Engine II not make more HP? Engine I making 456HP vs. Engine II making 471HP ?
I agree with what you say about % of efficiency. With that being said what is the % of efficiency of the 4.6L vs. the 5.0L?
Let say we have two engines, Engine I & Engine II. They both make the exact same 300 HP@6500 RPM. If Engine I is 80% efficient and S/C I is 72% that nets a total of 152%. What if that same S/C I at 72% is bolted to Engine II which is say 85% efficient giving a total of 157%. Would Engine II not make more HP? Engine I making 456HP vs. Engine II making 471HP ?
More to your point, though, is that boost is not just a measure of pressurization on the intake side of the engine, but it is also a measure of restriction on the exhaust side. So, take a supercharged engine at 8 psi boost with restrictive factory exhaust, then bolt on long tube headers and free flowing exhaust and that same engine will now read less boost (perhaps 5-6 psi?) yet yield more rwhp. This would be due to more efficient engine breathing (back to your point from your previous post - #47). So, yes, you've got the concept correct even if your math doesn't make any sense to me.
However, the 5.0L with its tuned exhaust is still only rated at 412 flywheel hp, which will still only put roughly 350 rwhp to the tires. And, any blower you bolt to it is still going to be less than 100% efficient regardless of the engine's own efficiencies. Assuming you want to see 500 rwhp out of the new 5.0L, and assuming the 78% efficiency of a Vortech V3 Si (other blowers will be similar), you'd need at least 8 psi boost minimum to get there if my calculations are correct. Luckily, most of the popular blowers push 8 psi or more, so it should be easy to hit 500 rwhp with the new 5.0L.
Last edited by Five Oh Brian; 12/22/09 at 11:19 PM.
12/23/09, 12:00 AM
#50
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If you dont mind me asking, did you buy or lease your 2010? I have a 2010 that I leased and I want to do the same, but will be completely effed on the negative equity. I talked to my salesman and he said he wouldnt recommend it; how are you going about it?
12/23/09, 01:22 AM
#51
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I completely understand everything you are saying and do not disagree. My question/the point I was getting at is this. For the sake of arguement lets just look at exhaust manifolds. The manifolds on the current 4.6L are adiquate for the engine and performane of it as it is stock, let assume the same thing for the 5.0L.
If I take any S/C running 6psi and bolt it up to the 4.6L. Those exhaust manifolds will reach a point where they start to restrict air flow effectivly holding the engine back from making more HP at the same rate it could prior to that point. Let say this happens at 4psi.
Is it not possiable the new "tuned hedders" that are supposed to be offered on the 5.0L could have an effective restriction point of 8psi. At that point I would think it would be safe to say that the 4.6L would have a higher rate of loss at 6psi than the 5.0L at 6psi. In the end allowing the 5.0L to make a greater % of power at 6psi than the 4.6L can.
I guess maybe the easiest was for me to say what I'm trying to say is this.
Individaully parts/components/technologies are worth each there own gain/HP number. But combined the sum of all of the parts/components/technologies would be greater than if added up individually. So can the technologicial advancements the 5.0L offers give us a better total end result?
If I take any S/C running 6psi and bolt it up to the 4.6L. Those exhaust manifolds will reach a point where they start to restrict air flow effectivly holding the engine back from making more HP at the same rate it could prior to that point. Let say this happens at 4psi.
Is it not possiable the new "tuned hedders" that are supposed to be offered on the 5.0L could have an effective restriction point of 8psi. At that point I would think it would be safe to say that the 4.6L would have a higher rate of loss at 6psi than the 5.0L at 6psi. In the end allowing the 5.0L to make a greater % of power at 6psi than the 4.6L can.
I guess maybe the easiest was for me to say what I'm trying to say is this.
Individaully parts/components/technologies are worth each there own gain/HP number. But combined the sum of all of the parts/components/technologies would be greater than if added up individually. So can the technologicial advancements the 5.0L offers give us a better total end result?
12/23/09, 06:20 AM
#52
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Strange math you're using there. I must have missed that class in college - sorry if I can't follow along.
More to your point, though, is that boost is not just a measure of pressurization on the intake side of the engine, but it is also a measure of restriction on the exhaust side. So, take a supercharged engine at 8 psi boost with restrictive factory exhaust, then bolt on long tube headers and free flowing exhaust and that same engine will now read less boost (perhaps 5-6 psi?) yet yield more rwhp. This would be due to more efficient engine breathing (back to your point from your previous post - #47). So, yes, you've got the concept correct even if your math doesn't make any sense to me.
However, the 5.0L with its tuned exhaust is still only rated at 412 flywheel hp, which will still only put roughly 350 rwhp to the tires. And, any blower you bolt to it is still going to be less than 100% efficient regardless of the engine's own efficiencies. Assuming you want to see 500 rwhp out of the new 5.0L, and assuming the 78% efficiency of a Vortech V3 Si (other blowers will be similar), you'd need at least 8 psi boost minimum to get there if my calculations are correct. Luckily, most of the popular blowers push 8 psi or more, so it should be easy to hit 500 rwhp with the new 5.0L.
More to your point, though, is that boost is not just a measure of pressurization on the intake side of the engine, but it is also a measure of restriction on the exhaust side. So, take a supercharged engine at 8 psi boost with restrictive factory exhaust, then bolt on long tube headers and free flowing exhaust and that same engine will now read less boost (perhaps 5-6 psi?) yet yield more rwhp. This would be due to more efficient engine breathing (back to your point from your previous post - #47). So, yes, you've got the concept correct even if your math doesn't make any sense to me.
However, the 5.0L with its tuned exhaust is still only rated at 412 flywheel hp, which will still only put roughly 350 rwhp to the tires. And, any blower you bolt to it is still going to be less than 100% efficient regardless of the engine's own efficiencies. Assuming you want to see 500 rwhp out of the new 5.0L, and assuming the 78% efficiency of a Vortech V3 Si (other blowers will be similar), you'd need at least 8 psi boost minimum to get there if my calculations are correct. Luckily, most of the popular blowers push 8 psi or more, so it should be easy to hit 500 rwhp with the new 5.0L.
Sorry for the confusing math, I wasn't really using any.
I was just using numbers to try to make my point/question make more sence. I guess it didn't work.This is what I understand you as saying: No matter what engine you bolt an 8psi supercharger to you will always see the exact same % of gain.
I don't agree with that and feel that if the root engine is more efficient then the ending % of gain will be greater. So 8psi on the 4.6L would not give you as much of a % gain as 8psi on the 5.0L.
I guess I am just not explaining myself well.
Atleast what I was trying to say made sence to someone. Sometimes I strugle with getting what is in my head onto paper.
12/23/09, 04:37 PM
#54
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btw it depends on the blower in question. Roots type are more efficient by design. If we are talking about parasitic engine loss these are two different equations. The roots time efficiency is its volume of air vs size and speed vs. heat generated. This is why different lobe design/angle is more efficient. The centrifugal also deals with these efficiencies which is what I think your quoting and completely different that parasitic loss.
Respectfully,
Roger
Respectfully,
Roger
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