I wish my daddy would come out and play. Or take me fishin'.

 

bahahahaha

 

Quoted for Truth

 

I'm not skeptical of the fact that a reliable 400hp 5.0 is possible, I'm just skeptical of the "fact" that we are going to see a 400hp 5.0 GT, and furthermore that this is safely known at this point like everyone assumes. All of those engines that you point out were in premium models, not a GT. That's the distinction I'm making.

Like I said before, we don't even have a clue regarding the general output of the 2010 4.6 (Bullitt tune? bigger changes?) and you expect me to believe that anyone KNOWS that the upcoming 5.0 will be putting out 400hp, and be in the GT

I think there will almost certainly be a 400hp 5.0 Boss (which will also cost a pretty penny), but 400hp in the GT... Seems unlikely to me at this point. I'm still waiting for some actual info.

 

Of course it's possible. The Europeans are getting that with 4.3L.

 

Its a replacement to the 4.6, it'll be a volume engine and cheaper than a 3.5TT to produce.
It's not a handbuilt unit (like those others mentioned), and it'll be in more than just the mustang.
Why is this so hard to believe... I don't get it.

 

Like I said (but you omitted) , it's not hard to believe that a 400hp premium priced Boss 5.0 will exist (although even this has yet to be verified in any way). I just don't think a 400hp GT seems likely at the present price point. I think we may see a 325hp (GT) version and a 400hp premium tune version (Boss). I just think people took the 400hp rumour and ran with it a bit too much.

If I had to guess, I say we are going to get the 4.6 with a Bullitt tune for 2010 (315hp) and then the regular 5.0 will come out in 2011 with 325/335hp in the GT, and a premium 400hp 5.0 /6 speed in the Boss.

 

Unfortunately other than "I think" I don't see any evidence to backup your reasoning,
other than maybe you feel its an expensive engine to produce.
While it may be slightly more expensive (due to more parts involved) it doesn't mean it will raise the price much if at all on a Mustang GT (especially with its multiple uses and cars/trucks)

They aren't rumour.
Ok, so to go back to what you said about the price being expensive what would be so different about the 5.0L with 335hp in a GT and a 400hp 5.0 in a 'boss'?
(thats low even when the F150s version of the 5.0L will be around 360hp and tuned for torque) 335hp out of the 5.0 4v would just be a waste.

The 5.0L will be a VOLUME engine..... it's not some SE engine you'll see for 1 or 2 years.
It's the evolution of the MOD motor, designed to replace it.
Ford isn't going to build some wicked engine only to have it relegated to special vehicles.
It's going in the Mustang and F150 at this point, and each will have its separate HP numbers.

believe what you will though...

 

Mike, I really don't understand why you find it so hard to believe. I mean take a good look at the 2009 Challenger R/T, as it's 5.7L Hemi, is rated at 370 HP. But yet the Challenger R/T, is not considered as a premium model, as is it's big brother the SRT8. In addition, the upcoming 2010 Camaro SS, also isn't considered as a premium model either. Despite the fact, it's 6.2L. is rated at 422 HP.

Therefore, why be so skeptical about getting a 400HP 5.0L in the 2011 Mustang GT.

As Ford desperately needs to step up to the plate, in order to compete with both the Challenger R/T, and upcoming Camaro SS, respectively.

 

ford cant go with a 300hp engine anymore. We have all kinds of cars coming out that have 300hp engines and the big boys are bow playing with 400 to 500 horses. goodness we could sit here for days and list cars that could easily beat our 05-09 gt's and people dont think its practical to get a 400hp gt. ESPECIALLY since chevy has promised at LEAST 300 hp in their v6 version!!! This means the chevy v6 model will be more than a match for our GT models!!! This excludes the SS and the Z28's.....

 

Great point indeed, as I completely overlooked the base 300 HP V-6 Camaro.

 

Ok, so here's my reasoning behind my opinion.

1.) A 400ish hp Terminator basically runs within a c-hair of the current GT500.

See video: H2H Ep5, GT500 Vs. SVT Cobra

I think it's safe to assume a 400hp 5.0 would also be close enough in performance to the GT500 to make it pretty pointless to pay the premium for the Shelby (especially with a few mods). Therefore I think it would be detrimental to Ford to have a waaaaaay cheaper car come so close in performance to the top model. They'd only hurt themselves.

2.) Because of this, it would also make it difficult to offer a mid-level SE such as a Boss or Bullitt. Where would you go from an already 400hp/high 12 sec GT?

3.) What's another NA 400hp engine that is economical to build? Yes I know it's a volume engine, but to make that kind of power and hold up under mods, it will need some pretty serious hardware. Both the Camaro and Challenger are going to be more expensive for a reason. They are going the big power, premium route.

4.) The Mustang has never needed to play the HP game because of the aftermarket and that's why it has stayed cheaper and more popular. Ford knows that it can keep costs down by offering a car with good but not great performance and those who want more have all the options in the world through the aftermarket. Very few buyers actually care about the difference of a few tenths anyway.

Again, this is just my opinion. I would love to see a 400hp GT as much as anyone, and maybe we will, but I just don't think we should be counting all the horses until they are in the coral.

 

Ok, so here's my reasoning behind my opinion.

1.) A 400ish hp Terminator basically runs within a c-hair of the current GT500.

See video: H2H Ep5, GT500 Vs. SVT Cobra

I think it's safe to assume a 400hp 5.0 would also be close enough in performance to the GT500 to make it pretty pointless to pay the premium for the Shelby (especially with a few mods). Therefore I think it would be detrimental to Ford to have a waaaaaay cheaper car come so close in performance to the top model. They'd only hurt themselves.
Stock vs. stock: Terminator, 0-60 in 4.8 seconds / GT500, 4.5 seconds. Plus the GT500 is a far superior car in every other way. The 2010 GT500 will also be getting a bump in HP, according to most reports I've read.


2.) Because of this, it would also make it difficult to offer a mid-level SE such as a Boss or Bullitt. Where would you go from an already 400hp/high 12 sec GT?
Mid-level SE goes to 450-475 HP, while the GT500 bumps to 540 HP.


3.) What's another NA 400hp engine that is economical to build? Yes I know it's a volume engine, but to make that kind of power and hold up under mods, it will need some pretty serious hardware. Both the Camaro and Challenger are going to be more expensive for a reason. They are going the big power, premium route.
The technical challenges for building the 5.0L out to 400 HP are simply not that great and have already been explained extensively.


4.) The Mustang has never needed to play the HP game because of the aftermarket and that's why it has stayed cheaper and more popular. Ford knows that it can keep costs down by offering a car with good but not great performance and those who want more have all the options in the world through the aftermarket. Very few buyers actually care about the difference of a few tenths anyway.
The 2010 is taking a bump in interior quality, amenities, technology, wheel size, etc, etc, etc. It stands to reason the 2011 will get 400 HP to compete not only with Camaro and Challenger, but with an increasing influx of imports that are crossing the 300 HP performance barrier. It would be an embarrassment if the 2011+ Mustang were to get trampled by a V8 powered Hyundai Genesis.

 

Yeah, 'cept the 300 HP V6 'Maro won't have anywhere near the torque of our current GTs, particularly if they've been tuned. I'm not too worried about blowing the doors off a 'V6 Maro at all. A new SS, on the other hand, will embarrass us like we're surrendering to our grannies.

 

I've heard this argument before and it still has the same problem: it assumes a static GT-500. The 2010+ Shelby will get lovin' as well as the GT, and as for the already-sold cars who cares?
Plethora of issues with this one.As the current Bullit shows the engine is not the only ingredient for an SE, and it does not need to be the centerpiece of any upgrades. And there's always Ecoboost.
Actually, the pushrod powerplant of the Camaro is probably one of the cheapest pieces in that car from a production point of view. Excepting the "variable displacement" version. Their costs stem largely from their stupendously overpriced platforms and other poor decisions about their design.
That's a valid argument for the 2010 caryover, but not for the all-new 2011 powertrain. Simply put, there's insufficent reason to do the 5.0 without a substantial uncrease over the 4.6, it would be cheaper to stick with the old motor or move to another common line as in Ecoboost. That they HAVE spent the money on a new V8, and in fact done it twice after the HurriBoss came out too heavy for the 'Stang, shows they're confident they will get more of an upgrade in all-around performance switching to the 5.0 than they could get out of maxing-out the 4.6.

 

Basically what HollywoodNorth and Moose have stated.

The GT500 stock for stock is a better and faster car than the previous cobra.
As HWGT stated, the difference is quite sizable. A fistful of tenths in the quarter is a big improvement.

Do not assume for a second that the GT500s performance will be at the current levels, because they most certainly won't. The gap may shorten, but the newer GT500 will be showing its tailights to a 400hp GT...bank on it.

 

Guys, I don't know why you think 400hp is so hard to fathom. Not all 400hp's are created equal. The 400hp you will see will be largely due to the increased RPM.

Do the math. Right now, with the standard minimal bolt ons (long tubes, intake, tune), we are EASILY at 350hp at the crank at 6k RPM.

Now if we were to have a higher tech engine that could rev to 7k RPM, WITHOUT ANY MORE POWER ADDERS, we would have 350hp * (7000rpm/6000rpm) = 408hp, assuming torque stayed the same from 6k to 7k RPM. (If you do not believe that this equation is true, please say so and I can show proof in another post)

The real power increase is going from 320ft-lbs of torque to 375ft-lbs of torque. It's a 55ft-lbs increase of torque, THAT IS ALL. That is significant, but not unbelievable. The HP bump is half from that torque bump, and half from the RPM bump.

In the end, it is VERY EASY to see how to make 400hp. It's all about the revs.

 

But yes, even though it will be very easy to produce a 400hp engine, I still don't see Ford releasing it on the GT.

I see Ford milking the 4.6L on the GT and then selling the 400hp/375torque engine on a SE model. People will still buy GT's. And people like me will pay extra for the SE because Ford knows they can take advantage of saps like me. Why would they give us a 5.0L and 6 speed tranny for free? It doesn't make business sense.

 

this guy makes very good points

 

the TQ goes up because of the displacement i think