When? 2014 Model Year when they do a complete redesign?

 

I brought it up because it was discussed a little ealier in the thread, ok? I didn't mean to upset you. Relax.

 

I wanted to start by saying mods usually don't add up. I'm sure you've heard the term Ricer math. All of these mods together don't add up at the wheels.

That said, regarding CR, raising the CR is good for 3 to 4 percent. Its closer to 3 percent at 11 to 1. I'd guess a CR bump is closer to 3 or 4 HP. A magazine actually did this with a different engine.

Headers are doable and would get 6 HP or so. Cost would be the hard sale. Ford engineers had a hard time selling them to the bean counters.

Most of the dynos I've seen for Camaro LS3s showed a the AFR closer to 13 to 1. I'm not sure if there's a difference between applications. Going from 14 to 13 is closer to 5 HP. 13.5 or 13 is usually optimal on a NA engine. Dynos I've sen going from 14 to 13 didn't show much of a difference. 13 is just a little safer and keeps the cats cooler.

I'm not going to touch the SLP stuff. I'll just say its after market and not factory. You won't see that CAI coming off of the assembly line.

Finally, I doubt a new cam is coming. Emissions, fuel economy, and recertification would kill that from the factory.

Based on my math, that's probably less than 20 HP available to GM from the factory. I fully agree there's a huge after market and potential for the LS3. I just don't see GM realizing it at the factory.

I agree the LS3 and 5.0 are very close and .4 seconds ain't much. I don't know which car will respond better to basic mods. DRs will help both cars, I just don't know how much.

 

Relax, you sound like my threapist! I'm not upset so you can relax please. After that political debate, I just didn't want to see another V6s sucks debate.

 

I totally agree with you, its smart marketing.

 

To piggyback, I thought the SE was going to get a power bump that might include DI. The SE engine was going to be the standard engine for 2012. Kind of like the Bullitt for 2010. I saw the new intake coming from FRPP but what other goodies will the SE offer?

 

SLP is more factory than most aftermarket... they are like a skunkworks for future projects. Over the past 3 SEMAs I've attended, I've notice more and more of what would be considered aftermarket being brought under the wings of the big 3 for OE applications. SLP has some Z/28 input, wouldn't be surprised if they supply the assembly line (was already in the works for 2012).

 

Would anyone call a FRPP supercharger installed by the dealer stock/factory? Its made by Whipple and covered by Ford. I wouldn't but that my opinion.

I wouldn't be surprised if GM contracts out for some of the parts. Roush did the intake for the first Bullitt. I'm saying you won't see that SLP CAI on a factory SS anytime soon. I guess you could say the same thing about Roush or Steeda but I still call them after market.

My point is if it wasn't on the car at the factory, its not factory. It might have a manufacture's warranty do to the close relationship the vendor has with the manufacture. Anything post sale or dealer installed ain't factory to me. Dealer installed or post sale is a different rule book.

 

Not quoting to kep this from looking like a book

Yes I know the term ricer math and none of it fits in here ricer math is "LS3 heads make 50 hp on a stock LS2 so they'd make 60 hp on my 408". All my figures are flywheel numbers as well. I don't plan/build based on wheel dynos they are for tuning only. And for my part every car I built hit every mark I set.

3-4% of a 100 hp engine is is 3-4 hp. 3-4 % on 426 hp is 12-15 (conservatively speaking, ricer math would be saying 15-20 when it actually comes out to 12.78-17.4). It's industry proven.

LS7 cast Iron manifolds are dyno proven at 7-10 (I said them as they are more logical and nothing out of pocket vs headers.

If you're talking wheel hp thenwe come up with about the same figures there on the tuning.

I still don't get your aversion to SLP's set ups. The only parts used in current models I could agree not being commonplace with are the underdrive pullies and the actual programmer in hand. The mufflers and intake setups are exactly the same type thing offered from the factory on every SS and WS6 from 97 on. Similar setups have made it on the Cobalt SS infact from the factory (better exhaust and ducting without the noise reducers which is all a CAI really is). They are technically sold like that now, given the only way you can order a SLP car is from a dealer. You can't buy them from SLP like that. They are covered by GM warranties bought in GM showrooms. I don't see how I can explain anymore what you keep saying won't or can't pretty much is happening now. It's the exact same thing as SVT offerings. http://slpcamaro.com/zl-models/zl427-zl454/ "To order a Camaro ZL427/454, please contact your local Chevrolet dealership".

Again the cam. Look at the specs I posted on the LS6 vs LS3. The main difference being the added exhaust lift and one shorter degree variation (in comparison it's the same as using a 4.6's cams on the 5.0). It eliminated any benefit from the cubic inches. The LS3 makes it's power over the LS6 on heads alone pretty much since it's undercammed by comparison. It passed emissions on a 5.7 it would pass them easier on a 6.2. It's technically a smaller cam to the 6.2 than it is to the 5.7 (for instance an MS3 cam like in my Z is huge for a 5.7 but docile for a bigger motor) . It's not ricer math it's physics. An LS6 cam would would gain HP and still be able to pass emissions. If GM's own "hot cam" (480 dyno proven HP on a GM crate motor straight from GM http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...&ProdID=265498 that's 50 cam only hp to all the other doubters who keep deriding the claims made) can pass california emissions, a tamer LS6 cam can pass anywhere with flying colors (an LS6 can even pass anywhere still) and get more hp and mileage to boot (than stock) since most of the change is on the exhaust side. Most HP bumps on mid cycle engines of any manufacturer come from cam profile changes. Others come from intake and head or displacement revisions of which are the not needed on an LS3. If it gets any real HP bump (unlike a recertification) at all it will be from a cam change that's the most logical. It would cost nothing in money. The LS1 went through 3 of them in 8 years the LS2 was slated for replacement after 2. This is the biggest bafflement to me. It's common practice yet the first thing you guys try to discount. The LS3 cam is tiny in comparison to every other LS cam vs it's Cubic inches save for the LS7 which is even smaller.

Lastly, using MPH as a factor for how the cars perform is even a better indicator than a dyno (the true comparison for real racers vs magazine racers). 110-111 mph to 108-109 mph is not a .4 difference its more like .2. 20 HP (even by your calculations) would put them dead even without a gear change. That's real world numbers. What they do is anybody's guess, Cam/remap or a 1LE option (with gear change) make the most sense as it would cost no real money for GM, and either or are just as easy. To tell ya the truth though I'd see them just marketing the SLP cars more rather than do much at all. They don't have to change a thing with it and it's like their own 1LE package with someone else doing the leg work.

 

I don't know what you mean by industry proven but going from 10 to 1 is 11 to 1 CR is only worth 3 or 4 percent. Its not linear or 10 percent. Just do a search on this topic. So going from 10.7 to 11 is worth 1 percent or 4 HP.

I'm going to have to trust you regarding the exhaust manifolds. Do they go from 1 and 5/8 to 1 3/4?

Dude, I don't know how else I can say it, SLP ain't factory. Dealer installed ain't factory. SVT is factory, FRPP ain't. If you can't get your hands around that I give up. I'm sure FRPP will have a PowerPack or something by the end of the year that offers 20+ whp. If you want to compare a PowerPack 5.0 to a SLP SS I'll listen, SLP SS versus stock 5.0 I won't.

That SLP 454 cost $6500! I can order some cool stuff from Steeda, Roush, FRPP dealer installed with a warranty for that kind of money. Just wait, the stock 5.0 supercharged Mustang will be out in a few months.

You seem pretty confident in the cam but I'm not. Stuff that worked and met standards 10 years ago won't fly today. The only guy I could see doing this is John Lingenfelter and God rest his soul. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Regarding times, The GT did beat the SS by .4 side by side in Motortrend and trapped about 1 mph faster. 4 tenths is usually 40 HP. 20 HP won't make that up. You can trap faster than someone and still get beat on ET. 20 HP might move the Camaro ahead at the traps but the 5.0 is still 2 cars lengths ahead. Maybe 20 HP and 3.92s can even that up.

I don't see any of this happening until 2012. The 2011 starts up Jun 7 so Chevy better hurry up!

 

Industry proven -GM's H.O. 305. Increased compression going from 72cc to 65cc heads netted a 305 that put out more than their 350's. H.O. 305 heads on any 350 despite smaller valves increase HP alot more than your 1 percent number I've done this one myself on 2 different 406's. Smaller chamber sizes equals higher compression meaning more hp. The 70's-HP decreased by large amounts for what main reason? Speed inc, texas-speed and any other LS performance suppliers sell ported 5.3 heads because they make more HP than ported LS1 heads because of compression increases (anywhere from .3-.5 cr boost depending on level). Why did mopar come out with the Hemi? What benefit did pop up pistons add? Why do flat tops or domed pistons sell? Why pay 600+ for 1-2 %.Why go to 11.0 CR on the 5.0 if it only nets 3-4 hp? Use your math on the 4.6 vs 5.0 and tell me what you come up with. Generally accepted number from most engine builders I know or read about is 1 full point is equal to 10%. Your own assumption of DI on a 5.0 making 450 hp is directly related to DI's main benefit to engines, use of higher compression while keeping lower combustion chamber temps. I'm not near as versed in Ford engine history but I'm sure you can look and find plenty of examples there as well.

I don't remember any of the internal specs or exact flow numbers on them (ls7 exhaust) but they are roughly the equivalent flow wise as shorty headers. 0 gain from a switch.

No, SLP isn't "factory" on this model, by your definition. SLP made or equipped rather all SS and WS6's, were they not factory? Powerpack vs a SLP sure I'm game.

$6500 isn't bad considering the performance and appearance items that are included. It's like the track pack plus the CS/GT or bullet combined features wise, whats so bad about it?

I know all about track times. I've had well over 100 timeslips myself. Reguardless what motortrend ran the difference in MPH indicates that both cars driven equally well on the same track are at most .2 seconds apart. That .4 difference (in an auto rag no less) means they don't know how to drive/launch the camaro. An idiot can jack up an ET but the trap won't lie unless they mess up bad (miss shift, not shift, let off etc). If the ET doesn't match the trap then someone didn't do something right.

We'll se what's up for 2012 I'm not expecting much. They have their industry leading numbers already save for mpg.

 

Clearly your ears aren't working, use the calculator on camaroz28.com and see what the percent increase is: http://www.camaroz28.com/calcs/crchange.html

Note how 10% is about 5 times higher than the actual value... you =

 

Stinger thank you for the above link and I've read about several builds that show the same results about CR changes.

Slim you sounds like a serious racer and if that's what you got I won't argue. I'll just tell you everything I've every read says you are wrong about CR and HP.

I'm pretty sure my definition of factory, made at the factory, is the correct one. If I see some Camaro guy mouthing off about SLP versus a factory 5.0 I'll just ignore that discussion.

Nothing wrong with the SLP package. Its comparable to other aftermarket packages from Roush or Steeda. But $6500 buys a dealer installed SC from FRPP or Roush and both have a warranty. I'm usually more go than show. If you want to run an SLP SS against a 5.0, my car would have a blower on it.

I probably never had 100 times slips when I used to race 18 years ago. I agree trap speeds are more consistent than ETs. If the other guy is hooking up and has better gears you can lose based on E.T. and still have a higher trap speed. You'll be pulling on him at the end. My point is just throwing 20 HP at the Camaro will help out the trap speed but you'll still be losing the race by 2 car lengths. The Camaro is going to need more tire or gear.

 

I consider the shift **** for the GT500s OE because it is supplied to the assembly line yet it is made by a Nevada based aftermarket company (not Shelby).

SLP is to GM as S&B was to Ford for OE intakes a few years back, same with SilverHorse Racing louvers for CobraJets.
Borla did the exhaust work for S197, Borla also does OE work for Chrysler....
When I say SLP will supply the assembly line, ignore it if you want, but when you look in Automotive News when they list suppliers for Camaro SS and the intake company listed has the same address as SLP in NJ, don't be surprised...
Maybe I'm wrong for saying SLP, like some aftermarket companies, they might list differently for OE applications or maybe they are contracted by a bigger company like Magna or something...

I'll look-up my notes from SEMA 2009 and see if that might be the issue.

 

Up until last year, (not sure after that as I am not in the biz anymore) you could order a Saleen or Roush straight from a dealer. Does that make them factory? When you bought them straight from Saleen or Roush, they took the car from a dealer and converted it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Hmm nice site, still going to point out this "Also note that there is no guarantee that this formulism works for all (or even most) cases" that it isn't the rule of law. Might be a lil closer than my numbers (never did back to back dyno runs) it would seem now that I've been research on my own, admittedly I never did used what I was told by local builders and my own experiences, I am on the high side. I would use this guys stuff http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofcrc.htm over a plug in anyday which is more than that plug in but less than mine. My personal experience is only from a head swap (twice) on 2 different 406's one dyno'd and ran before the swap and only ran after the swap (lost .2) dropping approximately 1.2 CR. So I'll just conceed there.

Serious racer naw man, never have or will claim that. Mediocre yes, not even the best driver. My best friend has beat my times in all of my own cars. Though I didn't study up on that swap much as it was the first car I raced and the net wasn't as prevalent. I have done much since and do plenty of research and especially in LS engines. Since then I've nailed every combo I shot for though. I hit exactly what I was aiming for with the last Nova (low 7's 8th) and my Camaro mid-low 11's 1/4). I might not know as much as you do. I just look at timeslip/mod list on every forum before I even post on them (how I found this site) use what I know, etc and go from there. Sure my Camaro has well over 100 passes, that was easy 6-9 runs (3 people at least 2 runs each) every outing.

I'm also not arguing or discounting your racing experience either. Merely saying a 13.1 from an auto rag is not and should not be used as the lithmus in a comparo when the SS can and has hit 12.9's and even a few 8's with the same 108 or higher trap speeds. C&D went 13.0 @ 111, as did MT on a different day, Super chevy got a 13.2 from an Auto SS, couple of the GM rags managed 12's, several members and shops have hit 12's as well stock as well. So far I don't see a .4 second difference.

 

That would have certainly destroyed Chrysler and most probably sunk Ford as well.

GM isn't an island setting in the middle of a desert, if they would have been allowed to die, it would have taken a huge amount of the supplier base with it (you know, those guys who handle sub component engineering and actually produce things like interior panels, electrical comnponents, suspension, componets, small engine components, sensors, ect).

If GM went **** up and the supplier base fell into ruin, Ford wouldn't have been able to get those parts and it would have idled plants as they looked for new suppliers or would have had to start manufacturing the need components themselves.

Like it or not, GM is an OMFG huge entity that can have an equally huge impact not only in thier sector but the economy overall. Saving GM may not have been an ideal solution, but faced with the consequences of letting them fail it was a much better choice to bail them out.

 

I don't think you are following me here. Ford has a million suppliers and if the part goes on the car at the factory its factory or OE. I'm sure SLP makes OE parts for Ford. The stuff we were talking about was aftermarket or dealer installed parts from SLP. Factory versus dealer installed is an important difference. You are playing by a different set of rules. If a SLP air intake is installed at the factory its factory. If the SLP part is installed by the dealership that is not factory. Was it on the original window sticker?

 

Last item on the list of content.

SLP has been a Tier 1 supplier for years.
This is straight from dave (of SLP) on moderncamaro

"All ZL Camaro's ordered from any Chevrolet dealer are drop shipped from GM's Oshawa plant directly to SLP for modification."

-DavidSec

None of the ZL line are installed at the dealers I know that much for fact. They are all presold. They are ordered, pulled off the assembly line and shipped to SLP, assembled and delivered just like the WS6's and SS's before. Don't know if the ZL stuff has an RPO code but the SS and WS6 did. Hence my belief (still) that they will end up on the line eventually. Hockey and rally stripes are installed post sale at the dealer none of SLP stuff is. It doesn't see light of day as a stock SS and isn't shipped from a dealer to SLP then back either. If a dealer wants a ZL on the lot he has to order one. They don't modify one already on lots like that due to the warranty agreement they have from what I gather. Got to ask dave specifically on that one. But I'm fairly positive his post above sums that up.

I still think you are confusing aftermarket SLP parts (like the SLP lid on my Z28 that I bought afterwards and wasn't available on a Z28) VS the ones they put on the cars from the factory like the SS and WS6's had with RPO codes and window stickers to go along with them. They were different parts.

 

I'm pretty sure Roush, Steeda, Saleen and Shelbys are all dropped shipped to the "Tuner's Factory" before final assembly. We are definitely getting into a gray zone here (aka opinion) but I do not consider them to be factory cars for the same reason I don't consider the SLP's stuff for the Camaro a factory car. Sorry but I'm sticking with this, if its not on the car when it leaves the Oshawa factory, its not factory. Same concept goes for Flat Rock. That's just me.

I'm going to **** off some GT500 owners but by that definition the GT500 is a Ford and not a "real" Shelby. The Shelby GT would because the work was done by Shelby at his place. Again, this is getting into opinion.

It sounds like a ZL is shipped to a vendor for mods, and then sent to the dealer for final sale. SLP, Roush, or another vendor is bolting their mods to the cars. That's still after market to me. Its an important difference for me because these post factory mods can avoid stuff a GM or Ford has to deal with.

I never said SLP was not a supplier, I know they are. The point is where does the part from SLP get attached to the car? There's different rules depending on where and when this happens.

I'm done, I enjoyed the discussion. I've had a lot worse with some of the other guys on here and I appreciate you keeping things civil. Hopefully I can line up next to you some where down the road in 2011.