way2qk4u2c

if this is the case than i agree they could make the same mistakes-

Boomer

I kinda agree with Pony on this one.
We have no idea what else is done on the car, or what someone says is 100% accurate and true.
Way too many variables.

Has ANYONE seen this issue on a stock engine... or for that matter even a FRPP supercharged engine?

RedCandy5.0

Great couple of posts by members over at S197

I dont think its a weakness at all. Heres my opinion on the matter


Stock ford tune is MAXED at ignition timing as it is.
Ignition timing increases heat.
This is most likely why they have piston squirters.
Aftermarket N/A tunes increase ignition timing to gain more power as its simpler than figuring out the TiVCT and "cheaper"
#8 is the hottest cylinder and the more timing it gets, the hotter it gets, thus causing the failure
The reason the S/C cars dont see this problem is the timing is backed way down

IMO aftermarket tunes should only be adjusting throttle response, and maybe some tweaks to the A/F ratios but NEVER modifying ignition timing.


There's a difference between taking advantage of, and taking it over the edge. Install an intake and add a little timing, but pay attention to the knock. You'll still see gains, but it'll be safe. Add more timing, and yes the gains will be higher, but so will the risk of failure.

As for why the failures are hit and miss, I think it's because of a combination of things. On good clean straight 93 octane, an average temperature and normal driving conditions the aftermarket tunes are likely absolutely fine. Those are 3 variables though. One of them changing probably isn't a big deal. The knock sensors will do their job and keep it safe. But if all 3 go extreme (bad gas, hot day, and heavy throttle), then that's where the "recipe for disaster" comes into play.

It's just like a plane crash. Planes don't crash because of one single thing. They crash because a combination of things, or a series of events that leads up to the crash.

way2qk4u2c

^^ i would agree as well

stangfoeva

This x1,000,000

Kpd3014

Has anyone taken into account the type of driving these blown cars have endured. Are the cars daily drivers in stop and go traffic, light to light or traffic jams? Are they daily drivers with long highway commutes? Are they the car which does everyday driving and then makes four or five passes on Saturday night at the track?
I think those are also a point which might lead to greater discovery of what is going wrong. Just a thought.

mystickeith50

I still continue to be shocked by the overall opinion of the "new" mustang owner. I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say but I think people need to calm down. We are talking about a few engines out of thousands and thousands. I think it is most likely the deal that this engine would've gone anyway, or there's more to the story. For those of you who are regretting installing a tune because it voided there warranty, probably shouldn't drive to work tomorrow because they MIGHT get hit by a car and killed. As someone said before, u better be prepared to pay for screw ups if ur gonna mod. This ish happens to every, every, new sports car/engine combo. Corvette/camaro/mustang, etc. Everybody just needs to relax and enjoy ur car. Mod it if you want, drive it like u stole it if you want and let the chips fall. I can tell u one thing, if your terrified about stuff grenading, u shouldn't be playin race car games. Now I'm gonna go beat up on my modded stang, cause that's what I bought it for, and hopefully my number eight doesn't go boom lol. I am now stepping of my soap box. Lol

mystickeith50

Also, what I mean by "new" mustang owner is not that this is your first stang, but I have noticed that there is an overall different culture associated with these new ones...IMO. I remember back in the day we used to soup em up, break em, and then fix em. We kinda got a "this thing better last forever" type of mentality with these new ones.

eas9898

That's because DIY maintenance and repairs was easier and less expensive 'back in the day'. That's no longer the case.

mystickeith50

Meh.....lol. No I get that but then don't mod.

jaybertx

That and it was **** near a $40k car.

mystickeith50

Everything is relevant. When mustangs were 20k, heads were a grand and a cam was 250 bucks. Now our cars are 35k+ n cams are a grand and heads are three grand. I also was making half as much as I am now. All relevant.

2012GT

Exactcly. If you're worried about tsb's, warranties etc, then leave it stock. Just don't be upset when you get smoked by a camaro with a tune or me lol.

blackgt87

+1

Doesn't everyone remember all the 3V cars with trouble when people were trying to figure the tunes out? My buddy worked a shop that modified them and remembers "tuners" blowing them up left and right when they first hit the road and people were writing tunes. Funny how a little time passes and now those motors are "tried and true" and "proven"......and the same. It's the tuning that finally got it right. Same reason you don't buy a car in the first model year. You get an overheating terminator or a 5.0 where the pressure plate bolts fall out.

Sounds to me like the safe way to make power with a tune is on a dyno. I wanna know how many of these cars that have #8 trouble had a dyno tune where someone logged knock and set the timing for THAT car and the person didn't change anything and had good 93 octane fuel.

Or were there other factors that played in?

I also can not believe the amount of crying and complaining and people looking for things to whine about. Once my car comes in I won't have time to be on this board telling people how "notchy" my shifter is, I will be too busy rowing gears and enjoying my car!

RedCandy5.0

Most of these problems are from those running either a race or aggressive tune that is meant for the track. Most say you can run 93 but recommend race gas. This should tell you something. Just run a nice safe tune and do not worry about that extra 5rwhp that you will gain from an aggressive tune. Tunes from VMP, Brook Speed or Steeda are nice safe tunes that are meant for the street and strip and can run on pump gas. Plus this summer has been awful hot. Beating your car in 100 degree temps does not help.

MRGTX

No... what you're not getting is that for most people, there was a reasonable expectation that these big name tuners knew what they were doing before selling tunes.

This is not like pulling a motor out of a Mustang in the junkyard, dropping it in your car and having the motor blow up after 7000 miles. The expectations are very different.

This is not my first Mustang but I still take some offense to your dismissive tone- that somehow new people are ignorant and have unrealistic expectations of what they're getting for their money. I believe you made these comments last time this debate came around...and it's baseless.

RedCandy5.0

List of cars that have #8 issues taken from another forum

I spend time on most of the forums so I can tell which are reposted within reason...

Posted unique cases of #8 failure, along with their tuner, on the forums I could find...

1 Excessive Motorsport
1 FRPP Procal
1 Bama
1 Lund/BBR/SCT canned tune (he used all 3)
1 Lund(Ford dealer mechanic who posted said customer got bad gas)
1 Unknown(refuses to say who tuned it)
1 Brenspeed

With that said, I think Bama has admitted 2 cars with their tunes have let go(but didn't say it was the tunes fault, to be clear). So not all people post their problems.

Just something I looked up out of having too much free time.

blackgt87

Thanks!! I don't think many people would have taken the time to do that and I know a "comprehensive" list like this is something at least I wanted to see. It doesn't look like its limited to one tune/tuner. Were those ALL mail order tunes?

My local dyno shop (one of them) has seen this happen in some cars but none that they tuned. They mentioned how a coolant crossover mod could help keep cyl #8 cooler, although I am not familar enough with mod motors to know where to start. I guess the water has to flow through one cylinder head to get to the other? So by the time it gets there it cant cool effectively enough?

Anyway I think I will be sticking to a dyno tune. I think all of these failures are a "perfect storm" of a few variables that have to come together (gas, temp, driving conditions, tune, individual car characteristics, tolerances, etc) and thats why so many people run canned tunes with no trouble, and a few in the bunch have failures.

MRGTX

Thanks for looking these up and listing them... that's greatly appreciated.
Some will point to the small number as a source of comfort but there's obviously no way to know how many have minor damage nor how many haven't been reported yet.

I guess we should start asking questions... Have all of these cars had CAIs installed? Is there anything else that is common to all of them? Did they all have knock sensor parameters changed?

MRGTX

+1 on this. I know that the folks who track Miatas often install a coolant re-route to help with uneven cooling, just as you're describing here. The kits are pretty cheap too.

I would be very interested in a mod like this for the Coyote.