I know in 2011 I will be looking at replacing my car. I am not a fan of the GT500 (I think Ford could have done a lot better and I can't stand the rear spolier). If the next model doesn't give me the wow factor I guess I will look into getting a vette instead.

 

You mean the new spoiler on the GT500KR that looks like came straight off the V6? lol

 

Here we go again. So if another car company does something successfully it must be the best solution for everybody...right? Porsche builds a juiced and lightened version of the n/a 911, calling it the GT3, and can't make enough of them finding people lined up around the corner every time they churn out a new one. Chevy largely followed the same recipe with the Vette, rendering the C6 Z06 in this instance and finding accolades galore in the press. But somehow this formula just hasn't worked out as well for the Vette with the C6 Z06 regularly selling under msrp before it's first model year was even out...and the used market for these cars is genuinely massive when production figures are considered.

When it comes to cars Ford and most of the other American auto makers have been kicking their own *** trying to do things the way the Germans or the Japanese do them for years now. This might fall into Captain obvious territory but most folks who want something done the way the Japanese or Germans 'do it' are probably going to go to the Japanese or Germans to get it. And while I don't expect the average internet pundit to know better I would have thought that Ford and GM would have figured out that this doesn't work by now.

And the reality is that the SVT moniker, despite ten years on the market to bolster it's image, has already been outdone by the recently reborn Shelby badging the GT500 wears. How? The Shelby has done something other SVT/SVE cars never could...turn a profit. I can appreciate that you and several others have an affinity for the SVT moniker, but the verdict is in and it reads that the SVT badge as a marketing tool died with a whimper. But this is hardly a surprise since it was, to put it plainly, stupid on Ford's part to engineer a new 'uber' badge primarily for use on a car...the Mustang...which already has more 'uber' badges and storied performance history than some car companies as a whole. It's an old axiom, but sometimes it it isn't broken you really don't need to fix it.

As I said I hope Ford continues with an internal tuning arm. I simply think the approach taken by SVT/SVE, particularly as it relates to marketing, wasn't nearly as good as it could have been.

 

And then we have comments like this where you completely lose me. While the Terminator was a nice enough car the reality is that Ford had to discount the **** out of a good portion of the 2004 year model run. Put really simply that isn't what Ford wanted to do for obvious reasons and the market was obviously telling Ford, by way of the fact that Ford had to discount the cars to sell them, that they could do better.

Enter the GT500 which you give as an example of a 'blunder' brought on by not listening to consumers. Tell me, how is this car selling again? I suppose I'm wondering where and how in this scenario Ford isn't listening to the consumer? Certainly the lack of an SVT headline isn't hurting here since the GT500 is easily the most successful model in SVT history.

And then you go even further with comments like this which have no basis in reality whatsoever. Pick any SVT badged Mustang you so desire and the GT500 will absolutely have it's way with it on any road course with the possible exception of the 2000 Cobra R which was extreme for a street car to be kind. In fact, we have absolutely no evidence thus far to suggest otherwise other than disgruntled internet pundits who apparently just want to believe this isn't the case.

 

The Z06 isn’t a tuner model per say. It’s a different model Vette. It doesn’t have a special brand, like Cadillac’s V or BMW’s M. You are comparing apples to oranges though. Chevy produces a hell of a lot more Z06 Vettes than GT3s. GM could also product 2,500 Z06’s and dealers could gouge customers. Heck, they are doing it with the ZR1.

I disagree with your whole second paragraph. In fact it’s plain wrong based on history. Back 30 years ago, the Japs were doing it the way “Americans” did it. They eventually got better than us (mainly because the Big 3 got complacent). History is a viscous circle!

Ford has done a good job capturing the Shelby name, but it has done little for the physical engineering of the vehicle. I remember reading an article on the 2003 Cobra when it came out. The statement by the auto writer(s) was “If Ford let SVT tune a modern Mustang…you better watch out”. SVT really never had a good modern platform to build a truly great car. It’s sad, but IMHO if Colletti was at Ford when the S197 “GT500” was originally conceived, it would be a totally different experience.

 

A bit part of this is due to the aging platform. SVT did their best with a 30 year old chassis. The suspension geometry is less than ideal and the IRS rear is a huge compromise. SVT did a hell of a job engineering the IRS for the Cobra. The new edge mustang in 03 was near the end of its model life and most cars need incentives to push them.

Shelby is the reason why it is selling. The car is not selling on its world class engineering. I think both of us will agree with this.

Neither of us know how the sales of the SVT version would do.


A stock 05 GT will give an R a decent run on a road course. Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. I think you are discounting the fact that the SVT versions ran on a wet noodle chassis. The S197 is much stiffer and Ford improved the suspension geometry, weight distribution, etc. etc. The S197 is a great foundation. Like I said, it would have been interesting to see what SVT could have done. I will be likely be buying a C6 Z51 Vette as my next car, which will show the tail lights to a Shelby GT500 in every test of performance. Ford might surprise me with the refreshed GT though!

 

I think this is an example of cherry picking and would guess you are going to have a difficult time finding very many folks who think the lack of a 'special brand' affixed to the Z06 is having a serious detrimental effect. And the notion that this car is somehow fundamentally different than a SVT or M badged car simply because the badging is missing, and that effectively is the only real difference, doesn't hold water. I'll also disagree that GM could produce 2500 Z06 Vettes a year and get a drastically different outcome since the pedal had fallen off the rose here before GM had the opportunity to exceed that production number in any meaningful way. Put simply, the Z06 was a sales flop nearly out of the gate which means volume isn't what killed this cars marketing chances.

You've missed the point entirely. So long as you build a quality product they actually want to buy consumers typically aren't going to care, or even know, with what methods you built the car....but they do care about what kind of cars you build.

You say this like the same or better hasn't been said of the GT500? Motor Trend named the GT500 one of it's top ten 'rare grooves' for 2007MY cars effectively naming it one of the ten best enthusiasts car on the planet in the process. They went even further claiming that the car was 'beautifully linear' praising the steering...which is generally considered better than that in the Vette...and the combination of handling and comfort citing that the GT500.

In fact, while other SVT efforts have received high praise I don't recall MT gushing over another SVT/SVE vehicle in that fashion with the exception of the GT.

 

I completely disagree and we have a car which drops this argument dead in it's tracks.....the seriously slow selling Shelby GT. This car should sell like space heaters in a new ice age if your take on this issue is accurate, even more because these cars are actually touched by the folks at Shelby's skunk-works, but that isn't the case.

Is the Shelby name helping the GT500? Of course it is. Just like Ferrari's, Porsche's, and Vettes all fare better because of the badge they wear. Does that it explain cars frankly ridiculous popularity on the market? Not even close and, as we saw with the SGT, even the Shelby name has to be affixed to a car people actually want to have the desired effect. Further, we're still seeing Shelby's move at msrp or a little better long after the new is gone and the bottom should have fallen out of the 'gotta get a Shelby' craze. The car is selling well primarily because it looks bad *** and, as a whole, is the best performing factory Mustang ever by a massive margin. And it does all this while being a decent daily ride too.

I haven't discounted the old SN95's shortcomings for a second, but neither do those shortcomings somehow make the GT500's rather impressive performance less so. As for the 'Z51 will outrun the GT500' argument, I still don't get it. I would love for the GT500 to be faster than the Z51 and, in truth, I don't think a Z51 can accelerate like a GT500 assuming good drivers on a good course...but that is my opinion. That said, even if we assume I'm completely wrong there the notion that outright speed is everything stills trikes me as a bit juvenile to be blunt. I can fix any speed disparity on the part of the GT500 rather easily, but I can't address the short comings on the Vette easily is at all. And since I, like the vast majority of people who actually own a GT500, would modify the **** out of one anyway what difference do stock numbers make to me even if I were inclined to be a numbers chaser?

A great alternative example is the Porsche 911 which is slower than a standard Vette in virtually every respect, but the German costs enough to buy a Z06 if the Chevy is what you want. That said, if the price difference were another 10k further apart I would still take the Porsche because it's a better car in every other respect IMO. If I'm speed addled enough to be that concerned about numbers I can easily fix any performance disparity and then some. The other issues like comfort, daily usability, steering feel, and appearance are a lot more difficult, if not impossible in some cases, to address in any meaningful way.

 

People pay extra for a badge (The GT500 is a great example). It’s as simple as that. The Z06 is a Chevy at the end of the day. BMW and AMG have a great brand presence and a cult like following. Lastly, I’ve never heard anyone call the Z06 a sales flop.



Until recently, American quality was behind the imports. The American companies need to build relevant cars that consumers want. FYI, I wasn’t talking about manufacturing methods. When the imports came over to the US, their quality was lacking. They learned and refined their process. The American companies didn’t want to listen at the time.

SVT and the GT500 got great press.


LARRY WEBSTER
The obvious point here is the engine, and blender whine aside, it's a gem. But the chassis was what really blew me away. Considering the age of this Fox platform, the SVT bunch did an incredible job. Every Mustang I've ever driven plows like a John Deere, but this one feels more inclined to do a four-wheel drift. I usually do four test laps on the skidpad. In this car I did 12; I couldn't help it. It'll turn tail-out, tail-in, or anything in between. You ever watch those lurid car slides in the movie Ronin? Here's your car to practice in. And don't be afraid it'll beat you up on the highway—it won't. If Ford ever gives these guys a modern platform, watch out.

Found the quote I was referring to.

 

You got me there on the Shelby GT. The GT500 is a legend. Baby boomers are the reason why the car is popular. I see a lot of grey haired folks driving them. In the 60’s, they could not afford the big bad GT500. Now later on in life, they have the means to relive a fantasy of their youth. I will still contend that the Shelby GT500 badge is the driving force behind the success.



The new LS3 will annihilate a GT500 in the straights. The old LS2 (30+ less hp) was quicker, per every test I’ve seen. See this is where we differ. I cannot fix the major shortcomings of the GT500. It weighs 400 lbs too much and the rear suspension is dated (No IRS). If Ford would have fixed those two issues (I think Colletti would have!), my signature would say GT500. Like you said, the car is a looker!

 

Your bordering on arguing against yourself here. You criticize Ford for abandoning a marketing concept...SVT...which was similar to BMW Motorsport and Mercedes AMG in concept. But by your own argument you have made the case that the Shelby badge has done a better job of doing what the M badge has done for BMW and AMG has done for Mercedes than SVT ever did.

Alright, lets roll with your interpretation of events here because, either way, it only reinforces the notion that Ford was wise to drop the SVT moniker. And that is the cold hard truth of the matter, no matter what angle you look at this from you can't find any tangible evidence that discarding SVT as a marketing headliner for the top line Mustang and replacing it with the Shelby moniker did anything but good for Ford.

If you are waiting for this to be broadcast from the highest mountains you'll be waiting a little while. Too many automotive pundits are still too enamored with the performance numbers to notice the rebates, transaction prices, and sales numbers and too many journalists would have to follow any such story with a healthy helping of crow, and nobody wants to do that. For an example of this look at the GTO which was a colossal fail, and which was on another level altogether compared to the Z06 in this respect, despite the hooplah that surrounded it prior to it's sales debut. But while that car has been called a sales failure by automotive journalists the amount of criticism directed at the car was surprisingly low given just how massive of a failure it actually was. For example, the Ford Five Hundred took far more heat than the GTO ever did and was nowhere near the sales disappointment the Pontiac was.

Given the amount of speed offered for the dollar the Z06 should be shooting off lots like they have a Saturn five rocket strapped to them. As I said before this has never occurred with transaction prices not even holding at msrp for an entire model year. Yeah, I would call that a relative failure.

 

Wow

Nice tussel

 

Look Who Is Ranting NOW! Maybe you should take a sleeping pill and stop trying to transfer your own issues onto me.

Yeah, You can assume I hate BLING, stupid non functional scoops and silly name badges! That's why Ford without SVT hit such a HOME RUN with the Bullitt!

Note the GT500 and the Bullitt are the only two American models selling with ADM's beyond their first model year.


Note the STRIPE DELETE, I am also replacing the GT500 SVT wheel caps and SVT sill plates.

I don't have a problem with the GT500 name, it is the over use of the SVT and to a lesser extent the Shelby name and badges.

I'm not alone in my disdain for the SVT badges, note that if you send your car to Shelby they will strip all of the SVT badges off for you and replace them...

It is really quite amusing how much that troubles you.

 

This is only according to you personal version of baseball. FORD struck out by not offering the 5.4 in the new BULLITT.

NONE OF THEM are worth ANY ADM(s) at all.

BRING ON THE 2010 with the 5.0 and just offer DHG as a color option. We'll have more BULLITT than we ever had.

 

Me...Rant?...BWAHAHA! This REALLY is funny how Rabid you are about all this....to the point of childish nonsense. Do you really even realize how many people are sitting back and laughing at this? You know it is possible to have a topical conversation without getting all rabid on people...but you see that is what is just so funny about all this.

I just thought it funny that you would pay a premium for a car that you had such rabid anomosity toward and then complain publicly about it at every given chance and with such conviction....I didn't even get into the whole "SVT/Shelby name useage debate" probably because it doesn't phase me and I just don't care. Really...I don't think I could pay for entertainment like this...so please...go on & Have a Blessed Day.

 

based on the photos of the exposed prototypes and camoed ones, I came up with this photoshop...

 

wow bro xD that is weird looking car you made their but i kinda like it

 

Just smooth out those lines, and you'll have the 2010 Concept!

And by the way, I've been reading this thread since it came out. Really quite amusing. Like reading a book here!

 

Time for popcorn!

 

This has been quite amusing.

I for one love SVT and have tons more respect for John Colletti then Carol Shelby.

Instead of Ford Mustang Shelby GT-500 it should have been called the Ford Mustang Colletti Cobra.