Replace the factory door subs
4/4/05, 11:00 PM
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Does anyone remember all those threads asking about how to replace the stock door subs? And what the impedance of the stock subs are??? And no answers??? Well.... I finally got my GT in! So, without futher noise, here is what you have to do to fit JL Audio 8W3V2 subs in the doors of a Shaker 500 or Shaker 1000 car!
Info: The stock speakers are oddballs (big surprise). They are dual voice coil speakers (surprised me) and each coil is rated at 1.2 Ohms and 60 watts per coil. Of course, my coils ohmed out at 1.6 ohms RESISTANCE, so they are NOT 1.2 Ohm speakers (the resistance of a speaker coil is usually about 3/4 of the rated impedance. For example, my new 8W3V2s ohm out at 1.7 ohms per coil. What does this mean? It means the factory amp is probably rated to drive very low impedance speakers so it can have decent power without having to step up the DC voltage coming into the amp. And it also means it will not put out it's rated power into my new speakers. No biggie for me as eventually (and probably not that far into the future), there will be a nice Phoenix Gold amp driving my subs...
Just so folks understand, here is why I want to get rid of these factory jobs:
From the side:
As you can see, the JL Audio 8W3 is MUCH bigger than the stock speaker. The motor is a LOT larger in diameter and depth. Even with that 1 1/2" long stand off attached to the back of the stock speaker, the 8W3 is still taller as well... What this means to the installer is that you have to cut some plastic. I know. It hurts. But if I could do it on my 5 day old car, you can too! Here is what has to go:
First, the cut in the side of the enclosure to clear the larger motor structure of the 8W3:
And a shot at what used to be the raised plastic support post. Not only is it completely gone, but the hole is enlarged slightly from size of the stand off to all the raised portion of the motor to poke through very slightly:
And this is what you have to take out:
Here is how the 8W3 fits into the modified enclosure:
And from the back:
And from the top:
So now we have this big hole in the side. And it is an odd ball shape as well. What to do??? Well, I found a plastic bowl that was almost exactly the same size as the motor on the speaker:
I waxed the outside of it and used it as a mold to make up a patch:
After making the patch, I cut it to fit so it just cleared the motor on the 8W3 and fit the back of the stock enclosure as well. I then used more fiberglass to bond the patch to the enclosure. Here are a couple of things to keep in mind: 1) the enclosure is a fairly soft plastic and fiberglass resin does NOT bond to it that well. To improve things, use a wire brush (wheel on a drill) to rough up all the plastic that will have fiberglass over it. And 2) It's still not strong enough. So, flip that door panel over and then bond the patch to the INSIDE of the enclosure as well (and rough it up!). Why? Well, this will form a fiberglass-plastic-fiberglass sandwhich so you will not just be relying on the bond strength, but the fiberglass strength as well. It should be MUCH stronger and stand up to the high vibrations a lot longer than just bonding it on one side. And, of course, I did NOT take a picture of the patch after it was bonded like I intended to. Sorry gents! (and ladies!)
The last hole was pretty easy to patch. The back of the 8W3 barely sticks out of the hole. I cut three pieces of cloth so the patch would overlap the hole by about 1" all the way round. But what to use as a form? the back of the 8W3 sticks out at a strange angle. (You can't really see it in the pictures I took, but the top sticks out a bit and the bottom doesn't quite stick out at all. My solution to this problem? Simple.
I took the door and a new speaker back to the house and soldered the factory wiring harness to the new speaker and then mounted the speaker permanently. I know! I still have this big hole to deal with! Then it was back out to the shop.
Where I then lightly brushed the exposed portion of the speaker with vasoline (and before any nasty rummers get started, this is a small container of vasoline left over from when I rebuilt the C6 tranny in my pickup! It is for shop use ONLY!!! Don't make me tell you twice!). This will keep the fiberglass resin from sticking to the speaker and it will not harm the speaker in any way.
Then all I had to do was glass in the three pieces of cloth using the new speaker as the mold! Done and simple. Of course, some time in the future, I will need to remove the new speaker (with panel still in the car thankfully!) and glass the patch in from the front with at least one or two layers of cloth. I don't think it will hold as it is for the long term, but it should be fine until the weekend.
After letting everything cure, it was time for the real test: would my modified speaker fit back into the door??? It SHOULD based on the measurements I took before I got started, but... And just for the record, it fit just like the stock panel did! I had it bolted back in place and playing music in about 5 minutes or so (you have to LOVE drills with clutches!).
My total time from start to finish was about 6 hours. BUT!!! That included probably 3+ hours of cure time. Make part. Let cure. Bond outside. Let cure. Bond inside. Let cure. Patch back. Let cure. If you have moderate hand tools, this is a very easy job. I used a Rotozip (Dremel would work as well or better), a jig saw (I LOVE my Bosch 1590!), my cordless drill and a 1/8" bit (for transfering layout locations from the inside to the outside) and a few hand files along with the screw drivers (hand and drill powered for disassembly and reassembly. I also had to use my soldering iron to remove the wiring harness from the stock speaker and attach it to my 8W3. That's it.
Now, I just have two things left to do: 1) Do the drivers side door (this weekend project) and 2) Get my JL Audio grills (dealer was out of them so they ordered a set for me).
Info: The stock speakers are oddballs (big surprise). They are dual voice coil speakers (surprised me) and each coil is rated at 1.2 Ohms and 60 watts per coil. Of course, my coils ohmed out at 1.6 ohms RESISTANCE, so they are NOT 1.2 Ohm speakers (the resistance of a speaker coil is usually about 3/4 of the rated impedance. For example, my new 8W3V2s ohm out at 1.7 ohms per coil. What does this mean? It means the factory amp is probably rated to drive very low impedance speakers so it can have decent power without having to step up the DC voltage coming into the amp. And it also means it will not put out it's rated power into my new speakers. No biggie for me as eventually (and probably not that far into the future), there will be a nice Phoenix Gold amp driving my subs...
Just so folks understand, here is why I want to get rid of these factory jobs:
From the side:
As you can see, the JL Audio 8W3 is MUCH bigger than the stock speaker. The motor is a LOT larger in diameter and depth. Even with that 1 1/2" long stand off attached to the back of the stock speaker, the 8W3 is still taller as well... What this means to the installer is that you have to cut some plastic. I know. It hurts. But if I could do it on my 5 day old car, you can too! Here is what has to go:
First, the cut in the side of the enclosure to clear the larger motor structure of the 8W3:
And a shot at what used to be the raised plastic support post. Not only is it completely gone, but the hole is enlarged slightly from size of the stand off to all the raised portion of the motor to poke through very slightly:
And this is what you have to take out:
Here is how the 8W3 fits into the modified enclosure:
And from the back:
And from the top:
So now we have this big hole in the side. And it is an odd ball shape as well. What to do??? Well, I found a plastic bowl that was almost exactly the same size as the motor on the speaker:
I waxed the outside of it and used it as a mold to make up a patch:
After making the patch, I cut it to fit so it just cleared the motor on the 8W3 and fit the back of the stock enclosure as well. I then used more fiberglass to bond the patch to the enclosure. Here are a couple of things to keep in mind: 1) the enclosure is a fairly soft plastic and fiberglass resin does NOT bond to it that well. To improve things, use a wire brush (wheel on a drill) to rough up all the plastic that will have fiberglass over it. And 2) It's still not strong enough. So, flip that door panel over and then bond the patch to the INSIDE of the enclosure as well (and rough it up!). Why? Well, this will form a fiberglass-plastic-fiberglass sandwhich so you will not just be relying on the bond strength, but the fiberglass strength as well. It should be MUCH stronger and stand up to the high vibrations a lot longer than just bonding it on one side. And, of course, I did NOT take a picture of the patch after it was bonded like I intended to. Sorry gents! (and ladies!)
The last hole was pretty easy to patch. The back of the 8W3 barely sticks out of the hole. I cut three pieces of cloth so the patch would overlap the hole by about 1" all the way round. But what to use as a form? the back of the 8W3 sticks out at a strange angle. (You can't really see it in the pictures I took, but the top sticks out a bit and the bottom doesn't quite stick out at all. My solution to this problem? Simple.
I took the door and a new speaker back to the house and soldered the factory wiring harness to the new speaker and then mounted the speaker permanently. I know! I still have this big hole to deal with! Then it was back out to the shop.
Where I then lightly brushed the exposed portion of the speaker with vasoline (and before any nasty rummers get started, this is a small container of vasoline left over from when I rebuilt the C6 tranny in my pickup! It is for shop use ONLY!!! Don't make me tell you twice!). This will keep the fiberglass resin from sticking to the speaker and it will not harm the speaker in any way.
Then all I had to do was glass in the three pieces of cloth using the new speaker as the mold! Done and simple. Of course, some time in the future, I will need to remove the new speaker (with panel still in the car thankfully!) and glass the patch in from the front with at least one or two layers of cloth. I don't think it will hold as it is for the long term, but it should be fine until the weekend.
After letting everything cure, it was time for the real test: would my modified speaker fit back into the door??? It SHOULD based on the measurements I took before I got started, but... And just for the record, it fit just like the stock panel did! I had it bolted back in place and playing music in about 5 minutes or so (you have to LOVE drills with clutches!).
My total time from start to finish was about 6 hours. BUT!!! That included probably 3+ hours of cure time. Make part. Let cure. Bond outside. Let cure. Bond inside. Let cure. Patch back. Let cure. If you have moderate hand tools, this is a very easy job. I used a Rotozip (Dremel would work as well or better), a jig saw (I LOVE my Bosch 1590!), my cordless drill and a 1/8" bit (for transfering layout locations from the inside to the outside) and a few hand files along with the screw drivers (hand and drill powered for disassembly and reassembly. I also had to use my soldering iron to remove the wiring harness from the stock speaker and attach it to my 8W3. That's it.
Now, I just have two things left to do: 1) Do the drivers side door (this weekend project) and 2) Get my JL Audio grills (dealer was out of them so they ordered a set for me).
4/5/05, 11:34 AM
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I have a feeling that any stock sub that will fit will not be any better than the factory sub. There just isn't any room on the bottom top corner for a decent size motor to fit. The magnet on the stock speaker is TINY! You might be able to find a speaker that would fit and sound a bit better, but I don't know how much better.
What I don't understand is WHY did they cut that top corner the way they did? There is plenty of space in the door to have a full depth, full diameter housing that included space for a REAL speaker's motor. I didn't even have to modify the vapor barrior as it had plenty of space... Oh well. It makes my car special!
What I don't understand is WHY did they cut that top corner the way they did? There is plenty of space in the door to have a full depth, full diameter housing that included space for a REAL speaker's motor. I didn't even have to modify the vapor barrior as it had plenty of space... Oh well. It makes my car special!
4/5/05, 11:38 AM
#4
Originally posted by mhk@April 5, 2005, 1:12 AM
Excellent info!!! Thanks.
Are there any aftermarket subs available that will fit witout having to cut the enclosure? Also, does anyone have pics of the front stock amps?
Excellent info!!! Thanks.
Are there any aftermarket subs available that will fit witout having to cut the enclosure? Also, does anyone have pics of the front stock amps?
4/5/05, 03:24 PM
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What would be the remifications of cutting out more room for the magnet, but NOT sealing it back up? I know that there's a specfic chamber for the stock sub, and that sealing it back up keeps that chamber, but what if the chamber were gone?
4/5/05, 06:36 PM
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Dallasmustang,
Subs are designed to operate inside an enclosure of some type (sealed, ported, or one of the "exotic" types) and NOT "free air" like most smaller speakers. The sealed air space controls the speaker cone and keeps it from distorting. Depending on the size of the holes you put in the enclosure, either it will act like a ported enclosure (Most likely not as setting port sizes is difficult) or (most likely) the speaker will be under controlled an distort VERY easy. (aka: sound like crap)
If you are willing to cut the holes, it REALLY isn't hard to make the patches and seal it back up. You can get the fiberglass resin and glass cloth (do NOT use an old shirt for this!!!!) at just about any auto parts store. This project is very small, so it is a good learner project. Make the patch first (using your mold of choice). If you are not comfortable after making the patch, call it done and do not cut up your door! If you are comfortable, start cutting and have fun!
Subs are designed to operate inside an enclosure of some type (sealed, ported, or one of the "exotic" types) and NOT "free air" like most smaller speakers. The sealed air space controls the speaker cone and keeps it from distorting. Depending on the size of the holes you put in the enclosure, either it will act like a ported enclosure (Most likely not as setting port sizes is difficult) or (most likely) the speaker will be under controlled an distort VERY easy. (aka: sound like crap)
If you are willing to cut the holes, it REALLY isn't hard to make the patches and seal it back up. You can get the fiberglass resin and glass cloth (do NOT use an old shirt for this!!!!) at just about any auto parts store. This project is very small, so it is a good learner project. Make the patch first (using your mold of choice). If you are not comfortable after making the patch, call it done and do not cut up your door! If you are comfortable, start cutting and have fun!
4/5/05, 06:42 PM
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Unbelievable write-up RRRoamer! Amazing! I'm sure there's no better Shaker 500 sub swap howto anywhere on the Net. 
Did you also replace the door components and the rear deck 5x7s? Any info or advice on those?
Did you also replace the door components and the rear deck 5x7s? Any info or advice on those?
4/5/05, 07:03 PM
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wjones,
Not yet. I'm just getting started. Of course, my wallet is having a LOT to say about what I do and when (for some reason, it's a bit thin after paying the down payment... )
I CAN tell you what I plan! I plan on replacing the factory door speakers with a set of Polk Audio MMC6500 (6.5" component speakers with a 1" silk dome tweater that I absolutely LOVE in my pickup!). I THINK there is enough room for them in the door. From loooking at the door enclosure, there appears to be more room around the speaker on the inside of the door panel. I should be able to make a fiberglass mount that will bolt up to the door in the stock locations and still allow more room for the 6.5" driver and the tweeter. We shall see soon. I plan on finishing up the 8" subs this weekend (and I WILL take a few more pictures! I got in a hurry and forgot a few!), so when I have the driverside door panel off, I'll see what I have to work with. Frankly, the only hold up is the cash for the amp to drive them. I KNOW that the stock head unit will not drive these speakers properly at all. They like a LOT of joice. I have them bi-amped with 75w RMS going to the tweater and 75w RMS going to the woofer. They sound GOOOOD.
As for the rear deck speakers, I can see why you would want to replace them. The stock speakers stink! I have not really given a whole lot of thought to replacing them, other than that I think I could fit a pair of 6x9s in their place (assuming the depth is not too deep, or else the window will get in the way).
Not yet. I'm just getting started. Of course, my wallet is having a LOT to say about what I do and when (for some reason, it's a bit thin after paying the down payment... )
I CAN tell you what I plan! I plan on replacing the factory door speakers with a set of Polk Audio MMC6500 (6.5" component speakers with a 1" silk dome tweater that I absolutely LOVE in my pickup!). I THINK there is enough room for them in the door. From loooking at the door enclosure, there appears to be more room around the speaker on the inside of the door panel. I should be able to make a fiberglass mount that will bolt up to the door in the stock locations and still allow more room for the 6.5" driver and the tweeter. We shall see soon. I plan on finishing up the 8" subs this weekend (and I WILL take a few more pictures! I got in a hurry and forgot a few!), so when I have the driverside door panel off, I'll see what I have to work with. Frankly, the only hold up is the cash for the amp to drive them. I KNOW that the stock head unit will not drive these speakers properly at all. They like a LOT of joice. I have them bi-amped with 75w RMS going to the tweater and 75w RMS going to the woofer. They sound GOOOOD.
As for the rear deck speakers, I can see why you would want to replace them. The stock speakers stink! I have not really given a whole lot of thought to replacing them, other than that I think I could fit a pair of 6x9s in their place (assuming the depth is not too deep, or else the window will get in the way).
4/5/05, 08:49 PM
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I ended up taking out the rear deck 6 x 9's to put in component 5 1/4" mids, 1" tweeters, and crossovers. I built a shelf to lay on top of the existing deck; the bottom of the mids fit into the holes left by the 6 x 9's and the tweeters and crossovers either fit into the new 3/4" shelf or on top. Shelf is 6" x 38" and I used the existing grills to shape the ends of the shelf, then covered it with black fabric. Pics are from testing phase connected to home system. I sure CAN hear 'em now (lol)! Box to house 10" sub is being built by a carpenter customer of mine and will be done this week. Woofer element itself weighs 12 POUNDS! Oh yeah, and I still have to put on my new license plate holders! [sorry, rrroamer, still no permanent damage! (or fiberglass)] Front door speakers are done (and in use) except for minor tweaking - will finish tomorrow and post pics, weather permitting. Then the fresh 14-guage wiring, amps, head unit... hard part is done!
Please give me some input... might work for a few of you.
Please give me some input... might work for a few of you.
4/5/05, 08:53 PM
#12
How'd you take 6x9s out of the rear deck? Mine has 5x7s...
4/5/05, 10:15 PM
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Hey! At least the thing is all metric! My 81 Ford F100 does the mix and match thing. It REALLY stinks when they mixed standard and metric on the SAME STINKING PART!!!
Oh, and Eric, GET THE SAW MAN!!!!! You can do it! I have faith in you!
Oh, and Eric, GET THE SAW MAN!!!!! You can do it! I have faith in you!
4/6/05, 11:25 AM
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the Crutchfield site says you can replace the rear deck 5x7s, but the factory amp only sends low frequencies to those speakers, so even replacement speakers with tweeters will not reproduce high frequencies.
Anyone know if that's true, or BS?
Anyone know if that's true, or BS?
4/6/05, 09:34 PM
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Some TRUTH on this subject: many have complained that the rear deck speakers with the Shaker 500 receive only lower frequencies due to a crossover in the amps. NOT TRUE. I hooked up crossovers to component mids and tweeters to the speaker leads from the stock speakers and, altho the stock amps certainly are underpowered, full frequency range IS there. I think it gets confusing considering that the stock rear speakers are, first of all, oval vs. round, and are single-cone elements. They just don't respond to the higher frequencies, but they are efficient. Don't expect the Shaker 500 system to power decent speakers without some SEVERE clipping distortion. The good news is that some power amps have high-level inputs so you could add one that accepts speaker-level inputs to power different speakers without replacing the head unit. If you're an audiophile, tho, you know that the signal is compromised at every level and, at least eventually, you're better off replacing the head unit, amps, AND speakers.
IMHO
IMHO
4/7/05, 01:19 PM
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There is a way to keep the factory head unit and still use aftermarket amps and speakers: JL Audio Clean Sweep! Coming in may. It can take pretty much any input and it will take out all the stock headunit equilization (there to TRY and make the stock crappy speakers sound ok, but it sounds like crap when you put good speakers in!) and provide very nice, very clean line level outputs to feed your speakers. I'm just hoping the price is reasonable!
4/7/05, 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Eric@April 6, 2005, 10:37 PM
Some TRUTH on this subject: many have complained that the rear deck speakers with the Shaker 500 receive only lower frequencies due to a crossover in the amps. NOT TRUE. I hooked up crossovers to component mids and tweeters to the speaker leads from the stock speakers and, altho the stock amps certainly are underpowered, full frequency range IS there. I think it gets confusing considering that the stock rear speakers are, first of all, oval vs. round, and are single-cone elements. They just don't respond to the higher frequencies, but they are efficient. Don't expect the Shaker 500 system to power decent speakers without some SEVERE clipping distortion. The good news is that some power amps have high-level inputs so you could add one that accepts speaker-level inputs to power different speakers without replacing the head unit. If you're an audiophile, tho, you know that the signal is compromised at every level and, at least eventually, you're better off replacing the head unit, amps, AND speakers.
IMHO
Some TRUTH on this subject: many have complained that the rear deck speakers with the Shaker 500 receive only lower frequencies due to a crossover in the amps. NOT TRUE. I hooked up crossovers to component mids and tweeters to the speaker leads from the stock speakers and, altho the stock amps certainly are underpowered, full frequency range IS there. I think it gets confusing considering that the stock rear speakers are, first of all, oval vs. round, and are single-cone elements. They just don't respond to the higher frequencies, but they are efficient. Don't expect the Shaker 500 system to power decent speakers without some SEVERE clipping distortion. The good news is that some power amps have high-level inputs so you could add one that accepts speaker-level inputs to power different speakers without replacing the head unit. If you're an audiophile, tho, you know that the signal is compromised at every level and, at least eventually, you're better off replacing the head unit, amps, AND speakers.
IMHO
I was really disappointed by the stock subs in the Shaker 500 when RRRoamer showed us the pics. The magnet size is laughably miniscule! Somehow it still sounds better than any factory stereo I've heard, but there is definitely room for improvement.
I'm going to try leaving the subs in, and replacing the other door components and rear deck speakers with four efficient 5x7 aftermarket speakers, and see if that's good enough. Hopefully, that will be the end of it. I'll be sure to report on the improvement and installation as well, as I really appreciate the trouble RRRoamer went to to provide his howto.
4/8/05, 12:14 AM
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Definitely, RRRoamer has gone to some trouble for some much-appreciated pics and how-to's, EVEN THOUGH he thinks I need to cut 'n paste to get my system in. LOL! He's right: the front subs are sub-par, so to speak. I'll end up leaving mine in, but disconnected. I'd advise against 6 x 9's, only because round speakers reproduce sound much more naturally than ovals; rounds can be made to fit.
By the way, I'm in negotiations for a new amp, so I may have a McIntosh 4-channel, 50 wpc continuous rms (at 4 ohms but stable to 1-ohm loads, so quadruple the output) available. 10 out of 10 performance, about 8 - 9 out of 10 cosmetically. All reasonable offers considered!
By the way, I'm in negotiations for a new amp, so I may have a McIntosh 4-channel, 50 wpc continuous rms (at 4 ohms but stable to 1-ohm loads, so quadruple the output) available. 10 out of 10 performance, about 8 - 9 out of 10 cosmetically. All reasonable offers considered!