Great response, Dave99GT, thank you.

 

You wouldn't know that by visiting a GM fan site. There are people on those sites that have already declared that the '07 SS will own an '07 Cobra.
[/b][/quote]
I wonder if they would be willing to bet on it.

 

I wonder if they would be willing to bet on it.
[/b][/quote]


There's only one way to find out...

 

This is the most "sane" reply so far. It is obvious .... those that have not / do not race their cars on ORC or any kind of twisties could care less. That is fine, BUTTTTTTT those that have had the ***** to take their cars out on track would probably never compromise the IRS. If you have not tried an open track event ... you should .... You would then care about an IRS ....

To those that think the "05 GT will outhandle a 99-04 Cobra on track are just plain dead wrong. My slow as poo '99 outpaced an '05 GT all day long at IRP last October. 1 car .... multiple drivers, but it was data. For those no believers ..here are the pics .. BTW ... the second red Cobra is my buddies '98 ... His live axle could barely keep up with my IRS ... Maybe it's the driver .... Who knows. If the new Cobra DOES NOT have IRS or option to get ... I would spend my money on a GT and really make it kick hiney .....

 

Well stated. I think this board is disproportionately represented by folks who's idea of performance comes in little 1/4 miles spurts for the most part, where just about any suspension that will hold the car up off the ground is sufficient and anything beyond that is wasted money. You can see this in that maybe 10% of the posts dealing with vehicle performance revolve around either steering, suspension or braking while the rest is pretty much just drivetrain. And even that 10% is a lot dealing with how to get down the 1/4 mile the quickest rather than to that pub 35 miles away on the other side of the mountains.

I suppose I represent a minority here who see performance as the equal interaction between acceleration, cornering and braking over the span of real world road conditions. I have little interest in taking my car to either strip or track. Rather, I want a broadly competent, high performance road car that can comport itself well in all driving conditions, not just the creamiest of straight roads. Ironically, I think this ideal comports closest with the original concept of the Mustang, which was very much the antithesis of the one dimensional muscle cars of the day. The first Mustangs were even originally conceived to have a rather clever IRS as a folow on development, but cost cutting killed that then (too?).

I think that at the Cobra's projected price range $35-40+, the expectations for the car are going to be much higher than a simple-minded unidimensional 1/4-miler. Sure, such a singularly competent car may indeed appeal to a lot of people, but I suspect in the long run, that will constrict the Mustang's overall market appeal and impact, relagating it to an amusing but narrowly competent performance car, especially as a day to day driver on real world roads and conditions well away from any smooth tracks and strips.

IRS and the broad overall performance enhancements it would bring the the Mustang/Cobra would be necessary to bring the Stang up to world class standards and capabilities. The lack of such would represent a major impediment to my consideration of the purchase of a Cobra. And certainly those who want to more narrowly focus their cars performance into a single specific venue such as drag racing can be accomodated by a live axle option or swap, where the degradation in the overall performance (handling) envelope is of little consequence in pursuit of simple straight-line prowess. Either a "Drag-Pack" type live axle option on the Cobra, or putting a "Super Cobra Jet" Cobra motor option in a live-axle, strip oriented Mach I would best meet those needs.

But the lack of an IRS would make it nearly impossible to go the other direction, to have a world class performance Cobra able to go toe-to-toe against the M3's and whatnot of the world on any road or situation. My hope is that Ford can hold the narrow-eyed bean counters at bay and offer up an IRS to make the Cobra truely, make no excuses, world class performance car.

 

snkbtn99 and rhumb, I couldn't agree more. It will be a mistake for Ford not to offer an IRS under the '07 Cobra.

Sure, we may be in the minority because we want a Mustang that performs well under ALL conditions, acceleration, handling and braking but the majority of us do drive our Cobras on the street and even here in the sunny South, the roads are far from perfect. The Cobra should have the level of sophistication necessary to compete with more exotic European and Japanese hardware, and for that an IRS is needed. Personally, I'd like to see the IRS as standard with an optional live axle "drag pack" option for those who desire it. Revised springs/shocks and even a specific wheel/tire combo could be part of the package as well as the aforementioned live axle.

To those who haven't frequented a road course, you owe it to yourself to do so, the experience far exceeds any "thrill" ride you can get at your nearest theme park.

Ford has always touted the Mustang as performance car for everyone, well, some of us want more than straight line acceleration. Please Ford if you are listening, put an IRS in the next Cobra. I know I'll be first in line to purchase.

 

snake, rhumb, and Steve, thanks for the replies. I'm not going to refute the comment about being in the minority, who knows? I know for a fact Snake's position on the question, he'd rather get a GT and do some work to it. I personally would love to see IRS in some version of the 'Stang. Be it SVT, an SE Boss, which would be really sweet IMO, or whatever.

I can honestly tell you that I have never driven on a road course. What I have driven is actual roads S.R. 197, Oakey Mountain Rd, New Liberty Rd., etc. I am willing to pit anyone's road course skills against the twists and turns these North East Georgia roads have to offer. There are even some better ones in Western NC. This will probabbly never happen, though.

I do not have the luxury of having the time or funds to compete in a road track event. I love to go spectate but that is as close to a track as I get. I do hope that this will change as my kids become older and don't require as much attention. For right now, I have my beautiful back roads through the mountains, where I keep honing my driving skills.

BTW, rhumb and Steve, would you still want a Cobra if only offerd w/ a live axle?

Thanks.

 

I am confused. What exactly do those pics prove? Other than you were actually at the track. Nothing in the pic shows that your '99 Cobra outhandles a '05 GT.

 

Wow, I think I am in a virtual minority of one here. I do not "nicely" fall into either camp, IRS or live-axle.

I would like to see the IRS in the Cobra too much to be called indifferent to the issue, or in the live-axle camp. I think a well-done IRS would be a nice way to offer something special on the Cobra (and maybe a Boss 302 revival) and IRS offers definate advantages. I appreciate an IRS ability to offer good handling via things like camber gain while still providing things like a compliant ride. I also think IRS makes this platform more attractive for platform sharing and I would like to see this platform used on many more vehicles.

That said, I would rather see a really well-done live-axle than a somewhat mediocre IRS. I also appreciate many of the characteristics a live-axle displays (virtually perfect toe-angle at all times comes to mind), and have always though most of the IRS crowd simply bags on the live-axle because it is live-axle, regardless of how well it actually performs. IMHO live-axles can be made to provide a handling/ride compromise that is much better than a lot of the pro-IRS crowd has ever seemed willing to admit. So, in this respect I am too happy with a well-done live-axle to be part of the IRS crowd.

I enjoy all forms of racing and do not subscribe to the pure "drag-racing" concept for a hi-po street car. I like a street car that can turn a sub two-second 60-ft time on cheater slicks at the strip this weekend, and be braking hard, hitting apex's, and tearing out of corners the next.

I think the best thing Ford could do, funds permitting, is to simply offer the car both ways and let the buyer choose. As Rhumb alluded to above, and I have often consdiered myself, a live-axle makes a great modern-day Drag-Pack option. (have we discussed this before Rhumb, or is it just that bvious an idea and I have a need to think that I am the only one smart enough to think it up?...lol)

Whichever way Ford goes I will be happy so long as the car is well executed. And if I had to choose, I would rather see a car with a spectacular engine, tranny, etc. and a very well done live-axle than a car that has IRS but compromised everything else to get it in the car and still keep pricing where they want it. Ideally, we would just get the best parts of both of those cars.

 

Make that a minority of two. I agree with you completely. I would love to see an IRS but a well executed SRA that makes the most of the current suspension setup would be acceptable to me. I firmly believe that the lack of an IRS is the result of limited development funds. Ford had to make a decision on putting the money in the drivetrain or suspension and chose drivetrain. I believe that we'll see an IRS in the future.

 

I feel the exact same way. And I agree w/ you in that a lot of IRS guys want to knock the performance of a live axle before even testing what is out there. Me personally, I do prefer this new set-up, especially w/ what Saleen has offered.

If SVT and Shelby can do as good a job or better than Saleen, I don't think that people should be disappointed. Unless they absolutely cannot live w/o IRS.

 

Make that a minority of two. I agree with you completely. I would love to see an IRS but a well executed SRA that makes the most of the current suspension setup would be acceptable to me. I firmly believe that the lack of an IRS is the result of limited development funds. Ford had to make a decision on putting the money in the drivetrain or suspension and chose drivetrain. I believe that we'll see an IRS in the future.
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Make it three.

 

Yes, I would still buy a Cobra even if it were only offered with a live axle, I would just prefer Ford give buyers the option to chose between an IRS and a live axle. Rhumb's Drag Pack idea is an excellent solution and upholds the current "retro" theme.

I also agree with jsaylor, I would rather see a really well-done live-axle than a mediocre IRS. I know the '03 - '04 cars have wheel hop issues and that is something that shouldn't be present in an '07 Cobra equipped with IRS. If the car kicks major butt in all areas including handling and has a live axle, I'd certainly purchase. My personal opinion (and I have been known to be...uhh...uninformed, I'm never wrong ) is that a well done IRS would make the '07 a true sports car for the those of us with a wife, kids and a mortgage. A car capable of a decent street ride and mind bending performance.

I suppose alot of my live axle issues come from having owned and modified several 5.0 Mustangs. I built a serious '93 Coupe with full Griggs suspension, a 331 stroker, 6 speed, Baer brakes, etc. Everything I read and inquired about said the Griggs suspension was world class and would cure all the nasty handling characteristics of the 4 link rearend. Don't misunderstand, the car was phenomenal on a smooth track but still a handful on rough, uneven roads. So much so, I wound up selling the car and purchasing an SVT Focus for my open track adventures.

Slavehand, I'm sure those NE Georgia roads are awesome and great fun to drive hard. If you ever get the opportunity, take a trip to Deals Gap, NC and run the "Tail of the Dragon", 318 curves in 11 miles.

 

[quote=holderca1,February 17, 2005, 10:17 AM]
Number 4 and counting....

 

Yes, I've been there too, very fun and very dangerous. My brother-in-law LOST his crotch rocket and almost himself there.

Loose gravel + lotsa curves = Bye! Bye! motorcycle.

Not sure if they ever retreived it.

BTW, I think ALL of us are never wrong, just uninformed.

 

[/quote]

Yes, I've been there too, very fun and very dangerous. My brother-in-law LOST his crotch rocket and almost himself there.

Loose gravel + lotsa curves = Bye! Bye! motorcycle.

Not sure if they ever retreived it.

BTW, I think ALL of us are never wrong, just uninformed.
[/quote]

Sorry to hear about your brother-in-law, that's terrible, the dragon does have sharp teeth and has been know to bite.

Glad to know I'm not the only "uninformed" person out there

 

I'm in the camp, too. I said earlier it wouldn't keep me from buying a Cobra. My only beef is - it shouldn't be cost that is keeping it out of the car. If they can't get it right, (i.e wheel hop, breakage, etc.), then I understand. But they did "promise" IRS a long time ago and cost shouldn't keep it out.

 

There should be zero confusion on my post with the pics. Go back and read the responses up to mine.

My response merely agreed that an IRS is more beneficial than most in this thread are alluding to and that at a minimum it should be an option.
There were comments saying that the '05 handles better than an IRS Cobra.
The pics were in response to these comments merely to prove that I DID experience an '05 on a high speed 15 turn road course. IN MY EXPERIENCE, on THAT day, the '05 could not keep up with my '99 NA Cobra. Nothing more, nothing less. Read what you will into it. That doesn't mean that an '05 could come along and blow my doors off another day. I only go by real world experience .... not magazine racing, internet racing or what "Joe" might have said.

Cars were pushing about the same HP ... mine in 288rwhp. The runs with the '05 were made in group #4 which is the experienced category.

 

Get the local officers to close down the road of public traffic and I will take you up on that bet !

Just so everyone knows, there are a lot of open courses that are very far from being smooth. There is nothing worse than coming down a long straight away at 130+ and going into a sweeping right hander AND having to deal with bumps, pavement transitions and turning elevation changes .... ORC ..... give me an IRS ..... Street ..... doesn't really matter .....

Great conversation !!

 

My presumption in this discussion is that both the live axle and IRS are well designed and engineered. Sure, I'd take a state-of-the-art live axle over some cobbled swing-arm IRS any day, but that's sort of stacking the discussion in a live axle's favor. You wouldn't want to compare the IRS off a Ferrari Maranello with some old leaf spring truck axle...

The SN95 Cobra's IRS, while certainly an improvement over the SN95's live axle setup, could hardly be considered a pinnacle of the IRS engineering art, though one must give SVT a lot of credit for developing any IRS for ye olde Fox platform, which was never designed for one in the first place.

But the S197's chassis was designed to accommodate an IRS from the start but has been omitted thus far due to parsimonious bean counters. Presumably then, any IRS Ford/SVT does come up with will be much better than that in the previous Cobra. While some do bash the Stang and its live axle purely as an exercise of abstract hi-tech snobbery, there seem to be a few on this board who take the opposite, but equally pernicious stance of rejecting an IRS as some sort of anti-tech snobbery. Both approaches tend to ignore or exaggerate each configuration's objective strengths and weaknesses to bolster some political/social screed over a cleareyed technical assessment.

As for whether I would buy a Cobra with a live axle? Well, I am open enough not to utterly rule it out, though I would approach such a Cobra with a very high degree of skepticism. I would certainly see how it actually works rather than dismissing it purely on abstract grounds. Look how well GM and DC have gotten their archaic old pushrod-motor designs to work (LS2, LS6, and Hemi's). But at the Cobra's price range, as opposed to lower end Stangs, it would have to be equal or better than the rear suspensions on such competitors as the Vette, M3, Boxter, etc., not merely good, good enough, "nobody will know the difference anyway," or "does all right on the strip/stoplight."

I could even imagine some creative engineering that could be done to alleviate the live axle's Achilles’ heel; it's massive unsprung weight, through liberal use of aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, etc throughout the rear drive train and suspension. Now, of course, you'd probably be right up there with an IRS in terms of expense, which would obviate a live axle's main benefit, but it makes for some interesting technical musings.