dke

http://automobilemag.com/reviews/coupes/05...mustang_cooper/

Weird comparo -- but worth reading...

StangerX

WARNING: Long winded reply!

I would offer some opinion on this. The Mustang is its own niche. It's really not much of a niche though. The Volume that the mustang has sold has always been too high to call it a niche. It's really a segment. The Mustang made the segment 40 years ago when it was invented. It has owned it ever since. Heck, they named the whole thing after the car - the Pony Car segment. within the first 2.5 years of the car they sold over 1 million units. That's far from niche! Of course, things are different today, and I would say that roughly 200,000 units is a class or segment defining number. This is all somewhat of a "depends on what your definition of 'is' is" type thing.

What is the definition of a Pony Car? Glad you asked!
So you see that while other countries could compete in this segment, they do not have anything that truly resembles it. The closest competition for it would be cars like the G35 and Z, but they are more costly and only offer a V6 engine.

None the less, my point is that the segment has been around for 40 years and Ford, more specifically the Mustang, has defined it. No other country has offered anything in this segment. Not the Germans and not the Japanese. The other American makers have made great competition, and done fair. In the end, their greed for options and performace made the cost exceed the segment standard that has always been set by the Mustang. That's why there is no more Camaro, no more firebird, and no more barracuda (sad as that is).

In fact, the Mustang actually started sloping down as well as the years went on. No generation of the mustang has sold as many units as the first one. Why? It was smaller and cheaper. People liked that, and still do - as the first generation is the most often restored.

The sticking point of the entire segment has always been price, though. It's the best value for the price and the price is cheap. You enter the segment knowing that it's not a porsche, BMW, or even a vette. It's a cheap sports car that gives thrills to the common man. Not to degrade the car, but it's really targeted at blue and entry level white collar workers. It's for folks wanting the feel without the price, and in that respect, the car is exactly what it claims to be. An affordable sports car.

To compare it to anything else is difficult because nothing really competes in the same class. You could compare the mini to the Miata, the RX8, the Solstice, the Sky, etc. Those cars are all of a similar class. The Mustang is in a segment all its own, and I constantly have to remind myself of that. It's difficult to compare it to any other car.

It's no Luxo car. It's not ment to stop on a dime. It's not ment to turn 90 degree corners at 80 MPH. It's designed to give the thrill of what the pony car has ALWAYS given. It's designed to go fast while sounding and looking good doing it. The V6 car is the value leader for those that want the look and some of the speed but require economy.

You can find better performers in nearly every category. Yet what makes the Mustang so successful? It offers a balance of features (not too much, and not to little) that people want with affordable performance and just enough room to be comfortable. This formula is even catching on in Europe. Europeans are BEGGING Ford to bring the car overseas. They want it just as badly as we do. Ford did it with the first generation of Mustang, and I'm sure they will do it again. It makes great business sense.

If you ever drive or ride in a vintage stang, you will realize that the formula of the new one is IDENTICAL to the formula invented by Ford 40 years ago. People have been trying to figure it out since then and they can't. The reason they can't is because they start trying to offer more. Any time you offer more, the price goes up. When the price goes up, suddenly the bulk of the people that love the car can't afford it anymore, and your user base changes. The demographics of the people buying the car change. You become more Niche and less segment.

Right now the Mustang is carrying Ford on its back. Would it be the success story that it is if say the V6 costed a base of 25k, and the GT started at 30? I dont' think it would. People want the car because it looks unique and cool and it's cheap.

Production is a huge problem. I think Ford was being a little conservative just in case the car wasn't a hit. They didn't want to spend TONS of money only to have the reception be less than what they thought. Some of the shortage is probably also created by them. When the 1994 Mustang hit showroom floors, it actually sold MORE units in its first year than the 05 will sell. That tells me Ford is generating a little bit of a shortage. That makes the car that much more desireable and jacks up the price tag. People are paying way more money for these cars then they should be. All of that is because they want it. See the Miata for a prime example of this.

As for more cars on the platform, I think a Cougar would be good, and you could use the platform for other things, but making Mustang variants will never work. If you parouse the classic forums, you'll come across pictures of a first gen Mustang station wagon. Go look for it. The thing is HIDEOUS. Ford tested the waters with that idea once, and it was abismal. The public Balked. The Mustang will stick to what it does best in its segment and leave the other segments to their best. Ford uses Mazda quite brilliantly to that end. It's the same platform, but a different look.

Most companies are going to smaller volumes these days. They are spreading out and offering different styles based on the same platforms. This gives the apearance of variety while saving costs by using a universal parts bin. Even the mustang shares a TON of its parts with other cars. All sorts of things like the air vents and such are actually ripped right off of current production cars. That cuts costs.

The Cougar would be a PERFECT fit if it returned. Ford could then explore the luxo-sports car market while keeping the rugged mustang in tact. It worked once, and it would easilly work again. Starting price - 30k for the V8 car. It should have IRS, standard leather, and lots of additional appointments and options (such as DVD NAV). That would give people looking for a more BMW feel (such as perhaps yourself) the option of spending the extra cash and gettting the options they want. It would also keep costs down because you are platform sharing and it would make good use of the existing R&D.

Other SE's will give Mustang-aholics the stuff they crave. There are many already in the works, not the least of which is the 07 Shelby. I think Ford has it nailed to the wall with this segment, and they are proving it with outstanding sales numbers. You can go elsewhere to find something a little different, but you'll never find what it takes to be a pony car anywhere else.

As far as fleet sales... Ford drastically altered their program on that several months ago. I can dig up the article if you wish, but lazyness is getting me right now. They are charging full price to rental car companies for their cars (even Hertz if I remember correctly). They are forcing these companies to buy the cars at price which actually LOWERS their sales numbers. They have a select few Fleet vehicles for sale that you can get fleet prices on. The Taurus is a prime example. The car isn't even available to the general public anymore, but you can buy it for fleet use - brand new. This makes their per unit profit go up substantially, and keeps resale values higher. They may have some special deal w/ Hertz, but last I heard, they were actaully talking about pulling out of Hertz.

dke

I consider the Pony car a niche: here's why. It's a small part of the sport-coupe segment. It's the one that cares about acceleration more than handling, and values cost more than luxury/features. BMW, Lexus and others play in the high end of the segment; so there's more competition up there. Pony Car is just the low end of that segment, but since there are currently few players, they are doing well. I consider it a poor-mans sport-coupe.

The stang also has pressure from econo-boxes pushing up; the ricer crowd. It is sort of a poor-man's muscle car (lighter and not as many horses -- or two doors versus four). And some that are buying are deciding between it and the WRX or Evo (4 door coupes / rally cars?).

Remember the purpose of marketing terms is to figure out how to market the car. Sure, Ford/Mustang people want to tell you that it is "unique" it's own segment, and all that. But this isn't like the minivan, where there really wasn't anything there before. Or SUV. Crossover is barely a segment (far bigger than pony car), and they still haven't cleared the boundaries enough. So I'm not going to stink down their hype -- and instead I'll look at who's buying it, and why, and where the overlap is. While it is blurry because it crosses a few segments, that's far from being it's own segment. (IMHO). Honestly, Mini, VW Bug, Porsche 911 / Acura NSX, and others have a better argument for being their own segment.

If we all buy into "Mustang is it's own segment", then that means Ford has less reason to make it more competitive with the segments the car is really in (and attract those buyers away -- as they should). I'd rather push Ford to widen the capabilities than to allow them to make excuses to narrow them or claim, "we're special". So they say "Pony Car" and I see cowards afraid to compete in the real world.

As for shortages; they kill you. Each lost sale (or turned away customer) is like $20,000 that didn't make it to Ford's top line. And if you lose customers to the competition, you'll have a harder time wooing them back. Facts are, Ford did a lousy job of forecasting, or they wouldn't be supply constrained. Bad business. We can make excuses -- but facts are that if they lost 20,000 sales, that's $400,000,000 gross that doesn't show up on their balance sheet. Lots of car companies make the same mistake out of fear of having to sell off excess inventory at a loss. But it's still bad business -- and in hindsight, there should be people kicking themselves (or others).

As you said, let's hope Ford brings up enough capacity that they can meet demand. Let's hope they can broaden the brand appeal. Also that the sales they're getting now, can keep up (and weren't just forward sales to Ford/Mustang loyalists that had to have the new body), and that sales of their new retro don't peter off as happened with the new Beetle, PT Cruiser, Thunderbird, etc.... I don't it short lived *IF* they can keep broadening the appeal of the Stang. But if it stays where it is (in it's own niche, instead of intruding in many segments), then I think sales will be more spikey.

mr_speedvision

StangerX you hit the nail on the head thanks...

Kenny

StangerX

I try. Thing is... All of this comes from someone who isn't a "Ford man". I was born and raised in a Toyota family. My entire familly still wants to shoot me for buying a Ford. I took my father out in the car. I let him drive the car. He was impressed. That says something because he HATES Ford. I am one of those NEW buyers you are speaking of. I purchased a classic Mustang as a hobby several years ago. This car is my first NEW Ford. I chose it over many other choices, and the biggest was value and price.

The other point that you overlook is that the mustang has been consistant and consistantly improved on what made it great without loosing sight of the formula. Other manufacturers have come along and blurred the lines of the segment, but the Mustang INVENTED the segment 40 years ago. It's not that they are lacking. It's that others are blurring the lines by trying to differentiate themselves. Unfortunately, that usually results in lower volumes. A change in price is the biggest catalyst in a demographic shift. Most people shop for all styles of cars in a given price range. That's to say that whether that price range is 60-70k, 30-40k, or 20-25k, most people consider all options in that range.

The Mustang is the poor man's sports car. It's designed to go after a very large chunk of the sports car market - the common man. The Mustang has never been all things to all people. That is why many choose not to buy it. If, however, Ford decided to add options to this car (thereby increasing the price), they would alienate the largest core of their buyers - lower to middle income (and some upper income) folks. The Mustang fits in perfectly where it is. What is needed is a Cougar, lots of Mustang SE's, and something (more reasonably priced than the Ford GT) to compete with the Vette.

The mustang has no competition in its price range for its given options. The mini is a different class of car (sub-compact). All and all, Ford is selling a great many units of this car. They have maxed out their staff - running overtime production in order to fill as many orders as they can.

I don't feel that they will loose substantial sales numbers because of availability. People on these forums are waiting in line for the car, and I think most of the public is the same way. Impulse buyers will have plenty of availability later. For now, the demand is hot, and Ford is marketing it extremely well. Word of mouth is making the car even HOTTER. Quality is world class, and it's one seriously fun machine to drive. It turns more heads than my Vintage '66 ever has (which is quite a bit). That's increadible for a brand new car to get that much acclaim and attention - ESPECIALLY since it's a Ford! I know this Toyota man converted!

dke

Converts are usually enthusiasts. They get religion and preach it. Whether it is born-agains, anti-smokers, or car converts. Many on the board are enthusiasts who wouldn't buy anything else. I'm not a convert, just a pragmatic -- probably more like the majority of customers.

Most buyers don't care that a 2005 Mustang is better than a 1995 one -- or that it's followed some bean-counter or marketing wonk's vision/dogma. They care if a 2005 Mustang is a better value than the other cars they can afford in a similar price range. But once they've decided on a car, they'll add features to get what they want. They whine as the price goes up, but they will either juggle the features to get what they want or pay more to get the features they want. But if they can get a better mix of features that they want somewhere else, or can only get those features somewhere else, then you'll lose them as a customer.

So not having features may keep the selling price down (and the Dogma of the Mustang pure), but the point is that most companies want to get that up and tease people into buying more and helping their top-line. Not having that as much hurts Wall Streets perception of Ford -- and that cost of capital/equity really hurts Ford.

And just so you know, availability kills sales. I used to run a Martial Arts studio and knew restaurant owners; 80% of your draw is within a 15 minute drive. There's a very small segment (20%) that will wait longer, drive further, or are converts -- but the vast majority want it convenient and NOW! You can't get it for them, and you lose them. This board has many people that wanted a Mustang but got tired of waiting, so picked up something else. (Then they left). And this is still a fan-site -- for each of those stories you've read, there are 100's of others who've done the same, or never went into a dealer because they heard the car was hard to get. So don't confuse that just because you're a patient customer, or that you're brand/model loyal that others are too.

Ford is doing OK. They're selling well. Not as good as they could if they had more choice and availability -- but certainly not a flop. (They could do better). Reliability is pretty good; improvement for Ford. (They could do better). Options/customization they are doing poor compared to many others that are considered by industry insiders and business as doing MUCH better. There's still a lot of questions about pulling sales forward and longevity. And they've done a lousy job of pulling sales up in dollar amount (upselling options). They are not doing poorly, but there's a whole lot that they could do better on. So again, I'm not bashing Ford -- but I'm not a blind cheerleader. Let's admit ways that they can do better, and tell them so, and maybe they will do them and it will help them long term. And that's all that I started this thread about -- I've been to other dealers, and frankly they were kicking Ford's fanny in options and total buying experience. I'm happy Stangs are selling well in-spite of limited dealer options, models and so on. But imagine how much better they could be doing. They need to be more than a one trick pony -- pun intended.

StangerX

First off, I'm a realist. I like the style of the Mustang, but I have news... if GM built a Camaro that looked like the first Gen, I would have baught IT. If toyota offered a similar car that had agressive styling and similar performace for a similar price... i would have baught it.

I love the legacy of the mustang, but I am by no means a loyalist or a convert. I sing the praises of the car because it's amazing through and through. There's no beating around it... this car is nothing short of spectacular. Right now, other companies (Including Toyota) are scrambling to pull something together to compete. That's because they have nothing. They're not using current models to steal away market share. They have nothing to compete.

Sure, I'd love to have heated seats. I'd love to have a sunroof. Am I going to NOT buy a car because it doesn't have these amenities? My answer is clear. Sure, they may milk a few bucks off of people looking for these extra options, but is it worth loosing a few off the bottom to gain a few on the top? This car is on its A Game. It's a runaway success, and meanwhile other companies are scrambling to compete. They can't build them fast enough (200,000 units for a 2 door sports car in 1 year is a lot these days). That tells me that the car is a smashing hit.

They could do more, but that's not the point. The point is that they're doing enough. Your wife may not like the car because she can't get certain features that she wants, but meanwhile 10 people are standing in line behind her waiting to take the car. It's not for everyone, but sales are votes. Right now, the car is a hit, and I'd expect that to continue. Ford knows that the Mustang is their only hit right now, and that tells me they're going to do everything they can to keep it running hot for as long as possible.

Lalo

This is probably the best discussion I have seen in a while. Keep it up guys, I'm on the fence on which side to go with. Both have very very good points.

StangerX

even though I seem fired up, I promise I'm enjoying it. A good debate is fun and hard to come by.

Thomas S

Those numbers are way off from what the other car mags are getting. Automobile needs some decent drivers.

dke

I don't mind fired up. You're civil, but enthused -- that's not a bad thing....

I'm with you on the Camaro too. But that's my point. Some people are loyalists -- they buy a brand no matter what (or nearly). Most are more pragmatic. Ford's got a wave of first year sales for many reasons -- mainly there's nothing else cool and retro, RWD but fairly light with big motor and cheap.... they own the niche (or what you call segment). But Ford has between 1-5 years until the market responds -- and I'd put it on the lower end -- 2-3 more years. So Ford has to have in-place, a lot of special cars, and ways to broaden the Stang a lot. Buyers will re-buy if you do a good job. But if they've been waiting, and the competition offers them something as good (or better), they're gone. So, get the luxo features in, spread the line out, offer the options that people want, and take advantage of the small beachhead they've gained, before they're driven back into the sea (or seen as just another option among many).

I don't think as highly of the car as you do. It is nice styling, decent execution -- good motor, well implemented buggy-suspension that the draggers+racers like for reliability/cost -- but day to day drivers might be slightly less enamored with. It's a poor mans sports coupe, for those that don't want to spend $50K on a BMW or Lexus. (That isn't nearly as insulting as it sounds -- I see the Corvette as a poor man's super car. There's something to be said for doing something inexpensive and well). But the stang is missing options that you can get on competitors cars that are a fraction the cost. That starts moving it from economical to cheap. Huge difference to consumers. And Ford has done a mediocre (at best) job of really living up to the potential of the brand. We've heard "no Cougar", probably another year or two before more SE's, other than Cobra. So I want more, sooner, or Ford's going to miss the window of opportunity -- just like they did by making themselves supply constrained. So they don't get the rah-rah from me -- they get, "OK Job -- now don't drop the ball like you have in the past -- run with it".

Look at say 3 years: a retro Goat, Challenger, and Camaro are likely coming. The BMW's and Japanese are going to put V8's in lower end cars -- and their suspension and general reliability is considered better. I think the Dollar's going up, which means Ford/American is going to get more pressure on returns. Don't miss the window Ford. I don't think heated seats or sunroof hurt the bottom line -- and even if it was a wash, Wall Street loved the top line too. (Thinning margins but moving more metal isn't great, but it is a lot better than flat sales and thinning margins and waiting for the competition to come and eat your lunch). And GM is putting major downward pressure on Ford with pricing. (Chrysler has it a little tougher because of robbing the Benz parts bin too much, so I think GM can exert more pressure than Chrysler can in cost. In quality and styling, Chrysler is doing gangbusters).

So my point is exact that point -- that they can do more, and need too. GM is aggressive and competent. The Japanese and germans are not stupid either. Competition is brutal and Ford is seen as beleaguered. And if you look at their financials and analysis, there's some legit reasons. Not being able to build them fast enough is a BIG one -- a business no-no. If 10 people are waiting in line for each car, it isn't long before 4 or 5 walk away -- you sell one, and miss the opportunity to sell 3 more, or delay the sales into next year or later -- that's lost revenue delaying and lost opportunity. By itself, it isn't good (not earth shattering bad), but add in that your competitors are going to come and fill that gap if you can't, and it could be very bad. Now throw in that oil prices may change the landscape, so they might only have a few years before another wave of "sensible cars", and they may lose the opportunities forever. So a hit today may be a short term success and missed opportunity for the entire corporation. It's nothing personal against Ford, it's just business. Honestly, think, if Toyota releases the F-car thing with a V8, and moves it down into old Supra range, you don't think that will put pressure on the Shelby? Heck, if Audi stuffed their S4's V8 in a 3 door A3/S3, Ford would loose me. If BMW fired bangle, shot his family, and got a real designer in, fixed their quality problems, and dropped their price about 30%, and replaced their dealers, well then, I might consider another one. ;-) But they might. Look, I've been waiting for a couple years for the Mustang I want -- and I may walk away before Ford gets around to delivering it to me. Me as a customer doesn't mean much to Ford -- but if too many are like me, it should. There's some real positives in Ford/Stang -- but I'm not talking about those (nor ignoring them) -- but I'm trying to also look at the other side of the coin.

And it is good debate -- but we're starting to hit the point where we're just repeating... so I suspect it is winding down a bit....

ManEHawke

that mag couldn't test accurately if their life depended on it. They got almost a second slower on the GT, and just over 1/2 second slower on the V6.

As for them doing more, wait a bit. They aren't gonna do it all the 1st year. I think they are playing it as well as they could, something will be said if they mess up, but Ford seems pretty stable at the moment.

mr_speedvision

The GTO has more power, IRS an available 6-speed tranny and all the other must haves. Is it doing as well as Mustang. NO.
Adding more features might attract some customers... Ford will sell as many Mustangs as they manufacture.
Its not new that there ar no GT's on the lot. I do not ever remember a V8 Mustang sitting on the lot for months, they are scooped up quickly. It was that way for the S95's and I'm sure it was the same way for the Fox body Mustangs, and probably all the way back to 1964. Dealerships have 4 V6's to 1 V8. Everyone wants a GT some people buy a V6 because its available, or because of price, or for whatever reason.
Scions sell because they have all those accessories available from the dealer. Minis sell because they are a Mini, Beetles sell because they are a Beatle. Now tell me what Mustangs, Minis and Beatles have in common that the GTO doesn't? Classic styling cues, links to their heritage. Granted your wife bought a Mini because of the extras it has, but the majority of people that buy these types of cars buy them because they are Minis, Beatles, Mustangs. They are the have to have car in their circle. Why does the import crowd buy Civics, Integras, Eclipses? Not for features but because they are Civics, Integras, and Eclipses.
I do not currently have a New Mustang. Can any of the big three come out to change the fact that I want one? NO.
Heres a great thread... in what seems to be a lot of pointless babble about a slang term there is a point from the kind of person that buys from the Pny car segment... I noticed pricing and HP numbers, no glowing shifter crome plated dashboard factory 3 tone add-ons... Just $ and HORSEPOWER.

mr_speedvision

Here's a few qualifing potential Mustang owner questions...
How many Craftsman tools do you own?
Have you ever stopped for no apparent reason and did a big smokey burnout?
Do you change your own oil?
Spark plugs?
Belts?
Filters?
Rotate your own tires?
Take your brand new car to the muffler shop and say "Cut that crap off and put some Flowmasters on it"?
Look for a vacant parking lot to do a donut in?
Ever had a rear main seal leak and just keep pouring a quart of oil in every week because it is you don't have time to fix it?

Just humor me on this one, not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, just want an honest answer.
Kenny

Limeaid

Gotta tell everyone that this has been the best discussion I have seen on this site since I became a member. Ford vs Mini . Not only was it a great discussion but is was all well thought out. Each members posts were very detailed and helpful . It's unreal how many replies occured within 48 hours on this topic. Bottom line is I looked at both cars and went with the V6 Mustang for all kinds of reasons. Most have been posted. I think both cars stand on their history and will fill their niche The car I picked is the one I want my six year old daughter to be driving in 10 years, the Mustang with all kinds of upgrades and modifications along with the American History behind it

StangerX

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS A DISSERTATION ON JEWISH LAW (or the extended version of war and peace). Either way... it's long. Just be warned.

I'm glad everyone is enjoying it. I know it's winding down because repetition is setting in. I knew it was happening not too long ago. Hate to see a fun topic die. Well, at the risk of beating what could very well be a dead horse (wow... that's actually a bad pun when talking about mustangs... ), I will toss one more shot into the fray for everyone's reading pleasure. Perhaps I can liven things up and spread the conversation into new areas of conjecture and thought.

I want to kick things off by confirming (with some text) PART of a point that you had DKE:

Here is the text:

Getting Back in the Game: Toyota caught testing sporty Lexus entries

Now for the synopsis and analysis of this. Toyota is getting ready to beef up their V8 offerings. They are now testing cars on the Nürburgring. What does this mean for the future? Well, it's cool to see that toyota is finally taking the V8 engine seriously. HOWEVER, if you read this article, you will see that this conversion is only happening in the LEXUS brand. Toyota itself has been slow to adopt V8 engines, and infact, the only cars available with V8's aren't cars at all... they're trucks and SUV's. Their V8's are great engines, but I do not see Toyota pushing them on the mass public anytime soon.

They are too occupied with trying to look clean and good for the environment. Their major push is for Hybrid technology, and the biggest engine I would expect to see in any Toyota car (save for perhaps the Avalon - if they push up market with it, and a high end AKA $$$$ sports car) would be a Hybrid V6. I expect Honda to follow suit with this. If Toyota started offering V8 cars, all of the tree huggers that love them so much would have a bit of a hard time turning the blind eye. They would risk alienating their largest group of supporters.

What's more, if they actually had the GAUL to offer a V8 sports car (which is definitly a possibility), it would be such a limited release high priced car that the most they could hope to sell would be 50k units. Look back at the last generation of Supra. This was a really slick car. If you got the twin turbo, you were pushing what 35-40k? And those were at times where a V8 Mustang or Camaro would wax the twin turbo for 25-30k. Price dictated the future of that car, and even though it had more options, a very agressive look, and Toyota backed quality, the price was way too high for the common man to afford. So they had to cancel the line because they couldn't push volume.

These new V8 Lexus cars will be no different. Lexus has several V8 offerings (only 1 sports coupe) right now LOADED with options (and all the bells and whistles - standard). Are they moving mass volume? Not really. Your common man can't afford it. Folks near the bottom of the ladder need a car that makes a few sacrafices in order to make the dream a reality. The Mustang is (and always has been - for 40 years now) that very car. It's not for everyone, but it certainly fills a huge void in the market that would have otherwise worthy owners turned away because they can't afford BMW's, Lexus', and Vetts. It makes dreams realities for many people.

I would agree that many folks that buy a mustang repeat buy. That says something for the segment. If Ford can build a car that captures someone that quickly (enough to repeat buy), then they've been doing something right. On top of that, this car is so cool that folks who would otherwise NOT be looking at Ford (would YOU if the new mustang wasn't what it is?) are now flooding dealer floors looking to try and buy. Ford is generating NEW customers (myself included) that would NEVER have looked at their cars before. I'm not a big fan of any mustang between 1971 and 2004, and never would have purchased one - except that they have this car with this design and these features for this price. Take away any one of those, and I would have been driving something else.

My last car was a BMW. Before that, a Toyota. I have spent countless hours in many cars from many different brands. If Ford had not made this car what it is, I would not (with my very picky automotive tastes) purchased it.

Not to buck your trend here, but I drive my car every day. It is by far, one of the most comfortable cars I have ever been in. It's even more comfortable than the BMW that I owned. Not only do I drive it every day, I drive round trip about 80 miles WITH my wife in the passenger's seat. Both of us are EXTREMELY comfortable. Now keep in mind that I have the fully upgraded interior with red leather, the 6 disk in-dash CD Changer, and an auto tranny. I baught the car for comfort and long road driving. It is PERFECT at it too. I never tire of being in it. I've even driven the car from South Carolina to Ohio (In the winter with snow - NO trac control). I Loved and relished every minute of that drive, and would do it again (and will next year at exactly the same time). This car is spectacular. I have had it since December and put over 25k on it. That's a mess of miles. That should (teamed up with your knowledge that I have owned both Toyotas and Bimmers) give you some idea as to the validity of my statements.

The car is definately American. It doesn't have quite the quality standards that a brand new Toyota has. I have had to return it for some minor annoyances that I know that a Toyota would not go into the shop for (at this age). Yet, I have ridden very often in my parents' Avalon (2-3 years old now), and I must say that that car shakes and rattles more than I would have thought a toyota ever should. I have also ridden in my father's Sequoia and experience the same thing. He has had to go back to the dealer for several problems with both cars. Suddenly I realize that my car is right up there with theirs and may actually hold up better over the long haul. Suddenly this Toyota man is looking closer at Ford - even non-mustang cars. I'm not lavashing Ford with the premier quality stamp yet, but I'd say they have come leaps and bounds from where they were.

Most automakers were caught COMPLETELY off gaurd by this car. That's sad actually because they all saw it coming. It made its rounds at all of the auto shows as a concept and as production. I was there and saw the crowds. Admitedly I was in Ohio where most anything american draws attention, but you should have seen and felt the buzz around the booth. It was undeniably the most powerful display at the shows I attended.

These guys knew it was coming and did nothing. Now, they have nothing to compete, and just as was the case when the FIRST mustang made its debut, this one has done it again. Companies are scrambling to compete. The Japanese and the germans are going to turn a blind eye as usual. They have nothing to truly steal market share. They may offer expensive attempts at stealing folks away, but it won't target the same market. Lexus and BMW are too expensive for the types of folks looking at Mustangs.

The Americans WILL compete. Chrysler has announced it is scrambling to offer the challenger, as you say, but it will not see its debut until 2009.

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102549

In the meanwhile, Ford will have run of the house. That's 4 years (maybe 3 if Chrysler hurries) that Ford will have no competition. Where is GM in the process? Well, they scrapped their Zeta platform. Then they announced (after the Mustang sales figures started rolling in) that they are looking at modifying another chassis or possibly making Zeta-lite. They are back in the game for RWD. The soonest I would expect to see something hit showrooms? 2008-2009. Is this story sounding familiar? Yep! That's because it's happened before.

The Original Mustang bowed in at the 1964 worlds fair. It was a hit. The public went NUTS for the car. Ford released it 1/2 a year ahead of schedule. People were literally at the dealers SLEEPING in the cars while their checks cleared so that someone that could pay cash wouldn't drive away with it. GM saw this was a trend and hit back with the Camaro in 1967. That was 2.5 years for Ford to establish itself as the best in the segment. It worked. Chevy hit with the Camaro. It was more more more in all aspects... save for one - Sales. The Camaro NEVER outsold the Mustang. Why? Because the mustang always had the best price.

The same is true today, and I'm here to tell you that for 3-4 years, Ford has a hit that will remain unanswered. That's a lot of time to establish dominance in an automotive segment.

http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102664

That's powerful. Everyone knows they've missed the bandwaggon AGAIN, and now their scrambling.

As for Ford, I'm not concerned about their success with the car. They have several SE's coming. They know what it will take to stay on top. They did it in 1967 when Chevy hit with the Camaro. They'll do it again. The best part? Neither Chevy nor Chrysler is likely to wise up to the fact that they NEED pricing to be low in order to truly compete.

There is still time enough for Ford to intro a Cougar. Is it likely? Probably not, but then again... Thi Tang is in love with the Mustang. That means he has to love the Cougar too. Perhaps he'll convince Ford to invest in such a slice of the market. For now though, the car is doing exactly what Ford needs it to do. Demand is high and production is ramping up.

As far as shortages affecting the demand in the Auto market... it really depents on a number of things. Here are 2 stories that counter your arguments:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...articleId=96932

The Miata had limited initial release, and people wanted the car. The limited numbers never tamed overall demand. It actually FUELD it. Some finicky folks weren't willing to wait, but there was a massive BUZZ and demand boomed across the lifespan. Ford was also smart in helping that demand with little limited editions along the way. The Mustang is no different.

In the 70's my father and mother sold off their heavy V8 Pontiac coupe in order to buy a reasonable family car. The gas crisis was in full swing at the time. They wanted a Toyota because it had good milage and it was a wagon (see the Toyota Carona wagon). They found one at a local dealership. The cars were still on the truck (just delivered). They didn't care for the color or the options, but guess what... the dealer had 10 people in line waiting to take the car if my folks didn't. needless to say they baught it. They knew they wanted the car. Lack of supply didn't stave off demand either. Folks flooded dealerships looking for the cars. Some gave up, but most were persistant.

It happens all the time, and depends purely on circumstance and product. I see this as one of those times where the moons align and folks are willing to wait, ****** up the more available V6 models, or spring for the more expensive Convertibles - Just to get the car. The SE's will reguvinate intrest in the car, and Ford is sure to pace them just right. The first SE that's coming is really an SE-lite. It's the pony package available in 06. That gives even MORE reason for the folks that can't get a GT to go ahead and ****** up a well equipped V6.

To sumarize, I would say that all and all Ford could do more. They COULD offer more. Do they need to? nearly 200,000 units worth of production in the first year of the car and a shortage across the country with people willing to bid on and pay OVER the MSRP for the cars tells me no. They are right on target. As the model run goes on, they will add features and editions to keep sales lively, but they will never abandon what made the car such a succes for the past 40 years - base price and a pleasing array of standard goodies.

Remember... the old school American automotive maker tried oh so hard to be all things to all people. In todays uber-competative automotive market, the times are changing. You have to target a segment with a car. You can't blanket 2 or 3 segments anymore. People have too many choices and if they sense you are trying to overstrech your boundries by forcing a vehicle to be all things to all people across multiple segments... they'll go find a more specific car that is targeted at just their particular segment. The type of person that would buy a BMW 3 series is not going to be lured by the siren call of the Mustang. It's not their kind of car. Nor would it be if Ford tried. The potential buyer would just see Ford as "trying too hard and getting too greedy for market share". A Bimmer is a Bimmer, and a Mustang is a Mustang. You can't blur those lines no matter how hard you try. BMW has something they do well, and Ford has something they do well. Customers looking for a perfect fit will find SOMETHING that they like. That should make any auto enthusiast happy. The market is FULL of choices that are attractive in their own rights. It's been a while since there have been this many cars WORTH buying, and each company out there seems to have a handle on SOMETHING.

FYI: to add to the flavor that Ford IS considering going international with the new stang, check this out:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101169

mr_speedvision

Bravo!

StangerX

Wow, you actually read that? LOL! I wouldn't have figured anyone to have LIVED through that read! ROFL! It's a doozy! That's like finishing the ol' 96'er! You get your name on a plaque on the wall!

dke

I agree Lexus isn't going low end. But they have a cachet because they are seen as a luxo car. Plus, on lease, they hold their value so much better, that they are priced a lot closer than the purchase diff. would lead one to believe. Midwest and South tends to buy, and think of purchase price. Californians, Urban/Suburban and many "up and comers" tend to look more at cash-flow and prestige. So it really matters where you are (geographically and demographically).

I think your view that there was nothing to respond to the Mustang isn't quite there. The GTO was ahead of them. Mostly the retro styling is making the biggest dent, and guttural appeal to baby-boomers and wannabe's that remember the old car. So I think it had MORE impact than expected -- but traditionally the retro cars have burned out very quickly. The stang has yet to prove itself. That doesn't mean I don't think it will; I actually think the balances are right, so it won't peter out as quick as some others. But I'm not going to count chickens before the eggs are even laid (let alone hatched).

The Challenger is targeted at 2009 my (2008 cy). That could mean 2 1/2 years if not fast tracked. (Chrysler has a lousy record of fast-tracking, but has also had a few raging successes there). So a couple years is not a huge amount of time for Ford; especially if Chrysler shows something really compelling at auto-shows, and people start holding off on sales. (Starts a FUD campaign). Remember, they've recently raided the Benz parts bin, and brought things to market sooner than people expected. If I was Ford, I'd have seriously healthy respect.

GM scrapped Zeta -- but they did it in favor of something called Zeta light, or using other platforms they have. Again, 2008 model year is 2007 calendar -- that's as soon as 1 1/2 years. That isn't to say GM will hit the best case target, in fact, GM has a long record of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory -- but running a good business takes a healthy amount of paranoia. As you pointed out, Mustang is in the center of GM's radar. GM also has enough successes, that I wouldn't take being GM's "public enemy #1" lightly.

I don't expect the competition to be cheaper: I expect both Challenger and Camaro to be more money. But seriously, a LS/2 Camaro will hurt the high end of Mustang's seriously. I think GM's 6's are pretty good -- and they could push down (and might). Chrysler has the hype and does much better interiors/features right now. Chryslers lease favorably to Fords (even at higher purchase price). And GM could put price pressure if they wanted. With both them nibbling in the segment , and lots of competitors nibbling at around it -- I don't think Ford's in the clear. The good news is that the Mustang is inexpensive. But there's a fine line between inexpensive and cheap.Ford needs to make sure the perception is high quality and lots of features for the price, before the competition comes out.

So Ford has a short term break-out here (we agree) -- but they really REALLY need to run this as fast as they can. This isn't the 60's. Competition is much more savvy and adaptive. Marketing is better. If Mopar and BowTie both start showing something that looks nearly as inexpensive, as cool/retro, but with more features and more ponies at the car shows, it will gut momentum (growth). That doesn't mean it will kill the Mustang (hardly) -- but it means Ford missed an opportunity to own the niche and make as many converts to the brand. They're thinking of going global with the stang -- well duh! What took so long? So for me, they need to move -- hard. The division isn't doing that well BECAUSE they don't take the competition seriously enough. It's the old executives playing it safe, and not enough paranoid aggressiveness. GM is scared, and that's making them much more aggressive. Chrysler remade themselves a couple times, and are running lean, efficient and aggressive (and doing gang busters). Ford is going to either have to get with the program, or become the #3 American car company. And I know their unit sales don't look bad now -- but remember where they're at -- they make tons of sales on trucks and SUV's, and truck and SUV's are both starting to slow in sales. Much more oil-pressure (price) and it could be the late 70's and early 80's all over again. Ford's mainstream cars are under pressure. Their low end is having a harder time. The competition has gotten much better. And if Ford fails to take advantage of break-away successes like the Mustang, they're going to get rightly creamed on Wall Street (and they're already at 1/3rd of the valuation they were just a few years ago).

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't really out to get you....

StangerX

The GTO was initially a belly flop. It was a hastened attempt by GM to give a quick "we did it first" offering that was overpriced and understyled. GM learned their lesson because all "The Rick" can talk about now is how the next one will be more retro. The only reason the car is selling now is because people are buying them USED. It's what's making it more affordable. The sales figures are far from being note-worthy. It actually sumarized my point if you think about it. More power/features, higher cost... less sales (in this segment).

Further more... quite often, I hear your comments about how retro is a quick burn style. I don't understand how this conclusion is reached though (doesn't mean it may not be correct, I just don't follow). Retro styling is reletively new to the market, and has been a great success. The PT Cruiser has done phenomially well with sales. It helped Chrysler out of the pit and gave them the funds with which they are now reborn. It has certainly tapered off, and the styling is in need of a drastic refresh. The VW Beetle has done extremely well. So have the Chrysler 300 and Magnum cars.

The reason they're doing well is because the styling is agressive, and people want that. You are right that the Mustang is an excellent blend and should remain successful.

I also agree that if Ford does nothing, they have trouble. You are correct. The storm is brewing on the horizon. Yet, realistically, Ford has always done well at keeping attention on their products with many special editions (just look at the last gen's Mach1 car). This is a great plan because it is 2 fold. It fills small gaps in your offerings by giving folks with a few extra pennies in their pockets some added choice that faces off with your competition. meanwhile, the basic lineup remains untouched for the purists. The second perk to this is that those folks with a few extra pennies get something "special". It's not your average mustang. The alure of a car that is a limited run is hard to resist for many people - ESPECIALLY those with some extra $$$.

Ultimately we will have to wait and see how the other American companies compete in the market. I'm thrilled to see them coming, and I welcome that. It means Ford will have to step up their game, and I would put some serious money on the line (if I was a gamblin' man) and say that Ford knows what it's doing with the Mustang. Stay tuned and watch what happens as the auto shows tick on. You'll see some remarkable styles and refreshments coming to the Mustang. There are too many nameplates and too much history for Ford to pay with. All of this in a market that is starved for Retro and/or BOLD styling and performance (even in the face of rising gas prices).

I can't wait to see retro Camaros and Challengers roaming the roads. It will let me know that America is ALIVE again and they truly understand the pulse. It's the German and Japanese makers that I'm concerned with in this segment. The sport compact owners are starting to sway into the segment. Not a day goes by that I don't talk to some import owner that talks about wanting a Mustang or simply how cool the cars are. It's impressive when you can draw people in from other segments with your car!

The German makers are too over priced. The only company that I would be on the watch for from Germany is VW. Wolfgang Bernhard is poised to take that company in a new direction. If he can cut costs enough to lower prices... I would see VW as a true threat to offer a competing car in this segment. Other than that... the other offerings are too expensive to compete in the volume department.

Even out west... The mustang is flying off of shelves. That impresses me because the west is the most anti-american-automobile place you can be. I have been to and have friends and co-workers living all up and down the west coast. I have seen and hear frequently about the Mustang's success in the west. That's one of the cornerstones to my excitement with the car. It has made the west (at least some of them) hungry for American cars again! Listen to me! I can't believe I'm excited about American cars! I'm loosing it!