dke

This isn't meant to start a flame war, or by no means attack the stang or stang owners. But my wife is looking for a new car, and I've been married long enough not to push her into what I'd want to drive. We tried many dealers and cars that are often listed in the Mustang V6's category. The Beetle, Eclipse, Mini Cooper S, RSX, and even Audi TT.

The AudiTT is in another class (price). And she wasn't going to buy a $40K car that didn't have a sunroof (one of her requirements). She and I both are not fans of verts; too noisy, body flex, and we live where there's weather. So no go on the audi.

The stang didn't have a factory sunroof either, and while I've been into the dealer to look at them and love the body, it just didn't do it for her. (From a driving point of view the V6 isn't exactly agile. Not a dog, by any means, but more a cruiser that looks good -- with VERY sparse options).

The RSX was nice, and dealers were good, but they were out of them -- and too Japanese for her. (We've both had honda's and liked the reliability). Definitely improved handling and performance on the S model -- so good car, lots of options.

She drove the turbo bug (and the TDI). The first corner we hit, it was out of the running. She was instantly saying, "this has no sport". Slogged through the corner with body roll. But a decent car.

Then we tried the Mini. This is everything I'd like Ford to learn from. The car was for her. It was fast, tight, handled like a go-kart on steroids. The car is insanely tight handling, much better HP to weight ratio over the V6 stang, and the fun factor is off the chart. (I think the V6 stang goes more for cool factor). Most of all they are everything to the buying experience that Ford isn't. You want a factory option, they have it. Cold weather package; yes. (Heated seats, windshield washer nozzles, mirrors), colors in droves, factory body kit & wheels, different gauge layouts, different dash/interior colors, exterior options, and so on. 3 degrees of traction control, massive sunroof option, and more. They're selling so well (after what 4 years?), there's no incentives and other stuff.

Ford could/should learn a lot. I thought my local Ford dealers were competent, with a nice looking car. But I couldn't get the GT with the options I wanted; and less choice for V6. Heated seats (cold weather) = nope. Sunroof = nope. Interior options are pretty much normal or brushed metal. And while there's quite a bit of customization it is all after-market. Mini is going to milk another $7K-8K in options out of us, and my wife is going to get exactly what she wants on the car. With the stang, I couldn't get most of them, or many would have to go after-market. Of course there's some annoying bundling/packaging (can only get this option with this other thing), but less than Ford has. So we'll walk away with a better buying experience with Mini, and a more personalized car, with the features WE want, and having dropped more money than we would at Ford. This isn't to bash Mustang or Ford buyers, but light a fire under Ford -- learn what Mini does well, and start doing it! I want to see Ford youth up the car, and when you're selling the volumes of Ford, that kind of customization means that you don't look like everyone else on the road.

kevinv-6

what is the starting price of the mini?

dke

Starting price of the mini is like $17,500 (including destination) or so.... $20K for the S (Supercharged). So it starts cheaper than the Mustang V6 (so the old argument, "well that's a higher end car" doesn't work).

Sit in a Mini and take one for a test drive. It is tightly built with excellent fit & finish, interior quality, and so on. I like the Mustang; but seriously, the quality and options of the Mini, seats, and so on, just feel much nicer. (You could get cloth, leather edges, high quality vinyl/leatherette, or leather -- and they're adding another quality of leather as an option). But the mustang had power seats, the mini has manual (but feel better).

Also, I had more passenger room in the mini (both front and back seat), with easier access -- in a much smaller car (1000 lbs lighter). 6 airbags versus 4(?).

Cargo the mini is better if you give up the back seat (more access and larger area), but of course you have a trunk with the Mustang is bigger (and you don't have to give up the back-seat as often) -- but the lack of access (small boot opening) makes it lots less useful.

Driving is mixed -- the shorter wheel base of the mini means on long drives, I suspect the mustang is better. However it is only a few inches (so probably not that much). And in handling, turning radius, etc., it wasn't close. (The mini eats up the road). In acceleration the S wins pretty handily over the V6 -- but the much smaller displacement and torque, means laden (4 people), I think the Stang will do lots better. But it also means 25%+ better milage for the mini, and I liked the 6 speed option, the manumatic style CVT auto. Road/wind noise the mini seemed better -- but hard to say -- and there's a different tone (rumble and wind, versus higher frequency and less wind).... but like I said, not having the sunroof was a major deal maker/breaker for my wife.

Again, none of this is to bash the Mustang. The mini has been around 4 years, and has had time to add lots of options. But they're adding even more options and special editions this year. With the Mustang, the option is bigger motor, or even bigger motor -- but I don't think the solution to every problem is more displacement. Ford needs to learn from Mini on how to market a brand, and offer lots more options/customization to make the product appeal to larger audience (or appeal deeper to the target audience).

jgsmuzzy

the good thing about the Cooper S is the first mod. $400 for a new chip and it instantly adds 30hp, my friend has a CS and the thing is like a rocket. The only downside to me is a very harsh ride.

kevinv-6

DANG!!! I always thought they were more. I hope you guys enjoy the Mini.
I dont know why Ford didnt make more options available, maybe in a few years they will, or they figure there are enough aftermarket accesories to fill the void?

dke

RE: JGS.... yup... that's without a pully swap (another relatively inexpensive way to get a few more ponies). In truth, they're different cars. In the Mustang 6 you get a good looking American car, that's a cruiser with a decent motor -- the Mini-S is a hyper pseudo-racer. But I'd love if Ford gave the stang a diet of a few hundred+ lbs, had a hotter performing 6, better transmissions (6 speed stick + 5 speed manumatic), had options like sunroof, cold weather, sport suspension, and things the competitors offer.

I didn't get into it, but we'd tested the Mitsubishi Eclipse -- and it was the same thing. More seating options, sunroof, they were doing a lot better with their V6 than Ford is. 60hp and smoother response! I'd say the Eclipse performed better (had pretty good suspension) -- but front wheel drive chirpies just aren't as much fun, and I prefer the RWD of the stang. And there was something missing in the way the Eclipse handled. (Can't say what it was). Mitsu also had a few recalls on the brakes already -- and the V6 Mitsu would get eaten by a GT (and is more expensive than one).

But go to a Scion dealer and look at the options and way they handle youth compared to Ford. It's a different feel, and frankly Ford is not the better experience, unless you fit the models/features exactly that they want to give you. Which is a shame, because I think there's a lot to be said for the car itself.

StangerX

Maybe it's just me, but that seems way too expensive for that car. The Mini is TINY (the name kinda gives it away). If you're after a sporty little grocery grabber, that car may do it. I haven't ever had a ride in one, so I couldn't gauge it against my mustang.

Yet, I really couldn't compare the car to it. It's a BMW built glorifed go-cart. To me, they are cute, but have no feel, and the fact that it's BMW turns me off instantly (Quality concerns).

Did your wife drive a V6 Mustang? These cars (while certainly not as agile as a mini) are EXTREMELY well presenced on the road. They have amazing balance (near 50/50 distribution) which makes them stunningly compatent in the corners. The power is remarkable as well as the sound.

If you look at the V6 HP numbers, you may feel somewhat slighted. Yet, take a good long look at that torque figure, because THAT is what you notice when you drive the car. It pins you to your seat and instantly lets you know that there is more at play here than 210 horses. The Torque/weight ratio is increadible in the car.

I am not much of a racer (and as I said, have never driven a mini), but I would be willing to put my car stock for stock on the line against a mini and bet that I could easilly pull it off the line. On top of that, When you compare a fully loaded up mustang V6 against a similarly optioned mini, you really aren't getting what you're paying for in the mini.

The car is much smaller, has a smaller less power (HP AND torque) in the engine, and while you may have more choices, the interior and exterior are no where near as stunning (as the Mustang with IUP and ICAP). And then you have the grumble and rumble of an american car.

If she wanted a sunroof, there are many companies out there already installing them aftermarket (on just about any car). If you want options... dealers are offering a BEVY of choices that they will be more than happy to add on for you for a fee.

I have seen V6 mustangs inundated with non-factory options. These cars are being offered from the dealers with everything from body kits to 20's and dual exhaust as well as aftermarket IUP. There are TONS of choices out there for the Mustang.

I can't twist arms into wanting the car, but I would say that if you do a bit of homework, you'll find that the car truly has more to offer than I think you originally concluded. Then again, if you're on these forums, I could only assume that you have access to the wealth of information that all of us do, and as such would be able to make an informed decision.

I'm also somewhat baffled by folks that post similar topics. Not to steal your topic and turn it into something else, but I do get curious as to why people love to come onto a Mustang enthusiast site, enter the Mustang section and then post about how they have found a better car (in their opinion). I never have and probably never will understand the point. All it can do is draw fire.

Who am I though.

Good Luck with the new ride. I hope it is everything you guys want it to be. Hopefully in the future, you're not regretting the decision. I know I would be, but that's just me.

EDIT: Just read your most recent post, and thought it worth noting something.
FWD cars are never as much fun to drive as RWD cars. They leave MUCH to be desired in the handling department. It is a complex issue to tackle, but it has to do mostly with the center of gravity and the location of the power delivery.

When you turn a corner in a FWD car, the center of gravity is over the front tires. You will always feel like you're getting thrown to the outside of the car. In a RWD car, YOU are the center of gravity. You feel as if the car is turning around YOU when you corner. You also have the transmission and engine up front in a FWD car which makes the response in the steering wheel unpleasent when cornering.

Lastly, when driving a FWD car, you loose out on the most important and FUN thing to do when cornering. In a RWD car, as you are in the corner, you can mash the gas or relax the pedal to help you control your position in the corner. As you enter the corner, you can use the push of the RWD car to throw you deeper into the corner and get a little more bite.

On a FWD car, if you press the gas, it forces you to the ouside of the corner. You simply can't Dig in the same way. It's not as natural and not as comfortable. I have driven many FWD cars and never could put my finger on the reason why I didn't enjoy them as much. One day I read an article from an editor of a magazine that cleared the whole thing up. It sudenly made so much sense. From then on in, I want nothing but RWD. What's more, with the advent of trac and skid controls, RWD cars are now better than ever at handling the slick stuff.

These are only a FEW of the reasons that a RWD feels better than a FWD and actually handles more efficiently.

dke

Stanger... I'd say, go drive the mini before criticizing the Mini. As for Quality, I'd be careful how you wield that sword. BMW and Ford both have had enough issues. I think Ford is getting far more on top of things, BMW's was usually electrical and on the high end cars, and Mini has never been known to have any quality issues.

My wife didn't drive the V6 stang. I have. I agree it is a nice driving car. She didn't like the styling, I do. She thought the retro was too cheap looking in the Stang, I thought it looked classic. Ironically, the mini has a retro/sparse look too, but for some reason the details worked better for her. Plus she could pick dash color (brushed aluminum, dark something, and car-color laquer look). Remember, this is her car. (As you know there's a lot of emotion/impression in car choices). The point was never to bash the Mustang or it's buyers -- just point out that others have more options and that converts to more sales.

I understand your toque point (people buy ponies but drive torque), and mentioned the difference in tone/presence... but remember to compare HP to Weight (or Torque to Weight). 15.8 mini lbs/hp - 16.4 stang lbs/hp, and from what I've seen in reviews the Mini-S kinda whops the Mustang V6 in lateral G's, stopping and acceleration, not to mention rigidity. (That's handling). But the mass means the V6 is probably a better freeway driver. That's why I said the V6 Stang is more cruiser oriented. (I didn't mean to imply it was a bad handler -- but it has 1000 lbs more mass).

I totally understand that there are lots of after-market options (that dealers will install) on the Stang, and there will be more. But honestly, Factory usually does things better and is a placebo for the buyer -- so Ford needs to step up. In the Mini you can have double power moonroof with sun-shades from the factory (easier to do on lease) -- or with the Stang, you can get a popout/popup piece of glass put in (with possible buffeting/leaking), or have a whole glass top (that doesn't remove) -- and have issues with some leases, only some dealers do it, and so on? I'd take the factory option every time. That's the point I was making -- FORD needs to step up to the plate.

You ask why people come on a Mustang board and start wars or brag about new acquisitions. I was VERY careful not to do that. First, my 400 posts show I've been around a while, and am not a hit-and-run flamer. But what I spent most of the time on this topic was that a car in the same price class has many more options than what Ford is offering and a much better buying/customizing experience (because of that). This means more sales transitions and happier customers. This isn't a rip on the Mustang -- it is a way to generate some opinion/pressure on Ford to address a problem which is that Scion/Mitsu/Mini and others are killing them in the total buying experience and options area. That's probably why Ford has to offer incentives, and others can't keep up with demand. (There is lots more to it than just this -- but this is one area that should be addressed). Hopefully, they will address that and start making after-market options as factory ones (or factory supported ones), and start making more options, better customization and learn from their competitors. Again -- think about me looking at Ford and Ford Dealer Experience more than the particular car specs. (I shouldn't have wandered off topic to go there -- but many Stang owners always go to some car specs).

kevinv-6

oh i dont like the new Eclipses at all! they almost look like the Cougar from a few years ago. i had a 90 eclipse, actually traded in my 86 Stang for it, regretted it from the first week....oh well...
We actually test drove a Scion before getting our 05, those are fugly cars...as far as the options they offer its because Toyota is quickly turning into what Olds and Buick were the old peoples car, and their clientelle is dying off. but getting back to the Scion, I found the dealership there more unfriendly and snotty than the ford dealership, everyone is complaining about how arrogant the Ford salesman are getting...the toyota/scion were 50 times worse, much more smug and full of themselves etc.
oh well.

dke

In our area, the Scion dealer wasn't bad. But we weren't looking seriously. What I noticed was the list of options/extras that you could get on the car. (Except motor). If the Japanese started allowing more motor options, I think they'd do even better. But the point was just the ability to dealer-customize the car was better than Ford. Euro's and Japanese seem to get this, but American companies seem behind the curve (other than Jeep I think).

P.S. Scion Tc is a lot less ugly than the two Boxes on wheels. But remember, I'm talking buying experience -- not the gawd aweful look.

Martimus

All I'll add to this conversation is that I have driven a mini... once! If I have my way I'll never do that again. To me the Mini is way too small to be safe or enjoyable. Funny that you mentioned the Scion as that has to be the fugliest car ever made. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I firmly believe that a car needs character... To me cars like the Mini and Scion have no character... they're simply pieces of lifeless steel with engines and wheels.

Bottom line I suppose is pretty simple. If your wife is happy with a Mini then I'd say you found the right car for her. Ccongratulations and I hope she enjoys it!

StangerX

To each his own David. I know my comments were a bit harsh. I always say to each his own though. Cars ARE most definately, as you say, a form of expression. People want something that they can identify with. It's important to buy what works for you and what you enjoy.

Sales of the Mustang are not to be underrated. Remember, they have a max build of 192,000 (+) mustang this year alone, and they have already sold them out. They are taking orders only on 06 cars. Scion collectivly with all 3 cars they sell sold less. The mustang is also outselling the Chrysler 300 which is an increadibly hot car right now. The sales figures are running away from just about everything on the market that's anywhere near it.

All of that being said... I think Ford SHOULD offer more factory options, and less in packaging. I agree that the word Factory makes consumers feel better, but I would take it a step further than you and say that it's not just a placebo. Factories do it best. If I want something done to the car, I want a factory to handle it (if possible) because they know how to do the work consistently and professionally. Dealers do not.

That said... The mustang has always been a dealer's car. When it first came out, it certainly had more options than it does now, but most folks got the cars stripped out and returned to the dealers to install options later. Many of those options were not factory available, but were Ford authorized.

The history of the car has always been cheap, affordable, and personally customizable. It's the cheapest bang for the buck on the market, and that's why it's a runaway success all over again. They keep it cheap by keeping the options out. It's a blank palatte for YOU to customize as you want.

There will always be flashier, more powerful, better optioned cars, but they will always COST more. Even the mustang's closest competitor (the camaro/firebird) has fallen by the wayside because of the lure of more more more. They couldn't tame the price, and even though it outperformed and out optioned the mustang... it costed more. The bottom line is what keeps people coming back to the Mustang.

As I said... Good Luck with the Mini. I hope your wife enjoys it. You'll just have to get a Mustang and show her what cool's all about.

EDIT: Accitently repeated myself. Deleted it. Little reundant. Sorry.

dke

StangerX -- thx. And I appreciate you bringing out the volume issue. Ford's volume on the Stang does make it harder for them to offer as many options (because of impacts on the line, stocking/reliability, etc.); especially compared to other "hot selling" cars that are a fraction their volume. Sadly, people compare sales against previous models instead of against the competition.

However, remember, MINI made 184,357 units last year, so is near identical in volume. And in fact, having diesel and being more global (right and left hand drive, etc.), means they've got FAR more variances, and are pulling it off at the same volume. So my criticisms of Ford are to take on the Euro's and Japanese (in options). I understand the ramp-up the first year (and the Mini is in the 4th), but I want to encourage Ford to step up and offer lots more options each year so that they catch up.

Another, minor digression. Look at the 3 Series BMW. BMW markets a wagon, SUV, coupe, sedan, and vert all on the same platform under the same brand. (Not counting motor options/etc.). All with more options in each model. I think Ford and other American companies have problems with Branding, because even if cars are on the same platform, there's no common brand identity -- so they have to market the same platform 3 or 5 times to get the same impact as a single BMW brand-line. I understand the legacy issues -- but I think it makes it harder to compete for the Americans. (just a note).

Lalo

David- Hope you and the wife have a great time with the Mini!
I personally like the car a lot.

mr_speedvision

Well after looking over this I figured I had to pipe in... I am a big fan of German cars and there are a few Japanese cars that I like also. Mini and Scion have a much smaller lineup than Ford does... Mini has, well the Mini+options. Scion has the TC, XA, and the XB.
My first "NEW" car was a 2000 Honda Civic. Honda has the bundle package down to a T. I got the EX model because I wanted the V-TEC engine, plus it had all the power features and a sunroof. They also have accessory packages that are available to every trim package... carbon fiber, brushed alluminum interior, wheel options, exterior styling packages.
My sister just bought a Scion XB. I was really impressed with all the options available. Wheels, body-kits, exhaust, neon lighting, superchargers everything from the factory, installed, financed, warrantied.
Now from a handling stand point, My Honda would drive circles around my Mustang. It was very light and nimble. My Mustang on the other hand feels very heavy...
My next car will be the current S197 Mustang GT with a stick, because that is what I want. It's not the car for everyone. I am pretty simple when it comes to what I want in it, leather seats and a five speed manual. I couldn't care less about the other options.
I think that the new Mustang will appeal to the Mustang group, but any one coming from a Honda, Toyota, or BMW may be disappointed. Its a Ford. Expect it to resemble a Ford. It has Ford fit and finish. It is Ford quality.
Why doesn't Ford get on the bandwagon? I don't know is there something wrong with the way there are doing it now? Less options and selling just as many as Mini, and Scion?

Just my 2 cents,

Kenny

StangerX

Great discussion going David. I'm enjoying it lots.
You are more up to speed on the sales #'s than I am. Here's what I see as important though. Yes, the mini has more options than the mustang. If you look at sales then... that's a pretty impressive # considering that there are less options for the mustang. The Mustang has also sold out through its first model year. That's impressive considering there is still a LOT of time left before next year premiers.

Less options and higher prices than the mini make for some startling numbers when you put it into perspective. That says to me that for most buyers out there, Ford has it right. It may not be PERFECT, but it's a great place to start. Most of the folks on these forums are taking it upon themselves to modify the car, and I think most would say that they'd rather have that freedom to choose. Their monthly payments are lower, and they can make a car that is truly unique to them. Heck... people have even put in seat heaters already!

We bounce back to the factory VS aftermarket issue though. That's where you make the choice. Most folks that buy a Mustang are either enthusiasts of the Mustang, or they want to break into the brand.

Ford has never been one to be shy about offering options. Toyota is attempting to offer higher levels of customization with Scion, and it seems to be working. Yet, Most of those options are dealer installed. You buy the car and it's sent strait from japan with only a few choices. The Dealers are the ones that are customizing them for you.

Dealer customization has always been prefered to factory customization because of the cost (parts, labor, and time). Ford is just offering a well balanced blank slate for people to take advantage of. Look for the catalog of products to increase as the life cycle goes on. Right now the car is selling so hot that Ford doesn't NEED to do anything to push more units.

They're already over capacity, and more units would tick of even MORE people. Lots of folks have already canceled orders because it's taking too long as it is (and that's with less options). I think right now, Ford is trying simply to get cars into consumers' hands. The SE's and options will come later as the platform ages and sales slow down.

It's always hard to start comparing to BMW or more upscale brands. If you look at these brands, you PAY for that choice in the bottom line. The BMW's are expensive in comparison. They have more options in them and the cost of those options reflects your ability to choose. Each of those cars costs more than a GT Mustang. They are platform sharing with all of them, and yet, there is development time that must go into each platform. Because of that, they have to distribute that cost and you end up paying for the ability to choose (even if all you want is the plain-jane model).

Since the Mustang has a streamlined assembly process, you pay less for the car and you have less to choose from from the factory. It means you get a great car for cheap and it's up to you to make it your own and unique.

That's not for everyone. Lots of folks want dealer choices, and they (like you and you wife) will wander elsewhere to find it. The purists, the enthusiasts, and those that like the style will find their home in the car. The fit isn't for everyone, and thankfully we all have so many different choices. There is a car out there somewhere that offers you exactly what you're looking for for a price that you deem fair.

Edit: Smiley didn't show up.

kevinv-6

i think you hit the nail on the head Philip, I feel most Mustang buyers want a simple Mustang that they can mod out to their likings...

VintagMustang302

In the whole grand scheme of things you need something that’s good in base form with a low price that you can build up from there. The Mustang has and will continue to provide that. That’s why it's so successful. :drive:

Personally I think the Mini is way over priced for such a small car but like it was said in the posts above to each their own.

I love the Mustang in its stock form myself but if I ever want to add to it to give it some flavor I have that option. It's a great blank pallet to start from and didn’t cost me a arm and leg to get it.

Good luck with your purchase

Lalo

Don't forget about the crazy resale value on the Mini
I think it's still number one.

hamidlmt

The mini is one spiffy little car! I think they'd be a blast to drive! They're so different from a Mustang that they can't really be compared and I'd never give up my 'stang for one. They'd be driven for such different reasons. Enjoy it!!