Fazm

Mini's are fun for lots of people to drive, but being at 6'4" its not the best car for me to drive, in my mustang i can actually move the seat forward half of an inch and still be able to drive.

StangerX

Here is a great post where they are debating the GT mustang VS the Infinity G35 Coupe. This topic is well worth the read, and yet... something struck me as amazingly succint - enough to make sense here:

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=459963

The Mini has classic owners, and right now, new owners are clicky enough to show up at car shows. As time passes though, that car won't be the timeless classic that the mustang is. Being part of the history of a legendary car that changed the face of automobiles over 40 years ago is certainly something amazing. It makes you take a deep sense of pride in the car. It's part of the legacy and the heritage.

From the second that you own it, you feel like you've become part of that rich history with all of the ups and downs. You feel a connection to those first 1964.5 mustangs that rolled off the line. That is why enthusiasts love this car so much. It's not about resale value or options. It's about the wealth of heritage and the rich legacy. It's a feeling that takes you over from the second you put your key in the ignition until the moment you get out and close the door. It's a rich experience.

What's more... this is the first car (to me) that since the 1970 model has invoked such a sensation. I'm a classic owner. I've been in many mustangs between the 60's and the 2000's. I must say that to me... the 05 is the first car that has the neuances that make me feel the way my vintage does. It's distinctly mustang, and there is nothing else out there that compares.

For those that don't care about heritage and those that feel nothing when you sit inside of it and/or drive it, the car isn't for you. It's the rich history and the modern feel of this car that make it so amazing. No comparison in the world can top the feeling of a mustang.

It may seem like a dull comeback, but it's something that's there and hard to explain until you own one. I have had the fever and understood the classics when I purchased my '66 several years ago. My 05 V6 is the only car since then that has given me the same giddy fealing. Words don't describe.

dke

Thanks Zepplin.

Mr. Speedvision -- yeah, I agree Scion has fewer models than ford. But to be fair, Scion/Toyota/Lexus probably has more than Ford (not more than FoMoCo's total divisions combined though). But I think that's something Toyota is doing well -- focus. All 3 Scions are different flavors of the same chassis/motor. They seem to be better at getting better legs out of a single platform/sub-brand. Scion/Toyota have Ford beat it reliability and options. (Probably partly because of standardization of parts).

Both MySpeedy and Stanger -- I'm not THAT "up" on sales #'s -- I just looked it up for this discussion. (Don't like the taste of foot, so I google before posting). I agree that Ford is selling out, and with fewer options; which probably means less overhead/complexity. Which isn't bad from a business point of view. (Better returns). It is also in it's first year -- so I'm far from saying Ford is screwing up. Just they could do better; and here's how/why. ;-) Also to be fair, Mustang gets a lot of its sales from repeat buyers. 40 years of Mustang. I think the style change pulled forward a lot of sales -- so let's see how long they keep it up. Also their sales are up over last year is nice -- but not nearly as impressive as a brand that crawled out of the grave (0 sales/year) 3 years ago, to selling as many as one of the most popular brands of all time. I do realize that Ford is doing it only in the U.S., and Mini, etc, are doing it global. Which means some opportunities to take the Stang global and do even better. But I want Ford to take advantage of these opportunities, and not Ford them away like they have in the past.

From a brand point of view -- many look at the Stang and say, "A decent/well-built Ford". I'd rather they could honestly say, "world class car/options" and "the best selling/recognized brands ever". That means broadening it. Sure, some love to buy and add after-market and they're happy. But many are loyal repeat buyers or brand buyers. I want Ford to not only appeal to them but drag new buyers to the segment and broaden the appeal to the many who just want throw in lots of options from the dealer/factory, add it to their loans, and never have to think about it again. That also means more to Ford's bottom line, and the perception of buying the Ford, and Ford's business acumen on wall street. Look at the raves Chrysler is getting for business -- Ford needs to rip that cachet/hype out of their hands as it will give them tons of new opportunities; instead of the "2 most beleaguered of the Big-3" that they have now.

Thanks for the clarification that Toyota isn't getting those numbers with Scion, because they are dealer options and not factory ones. But I think a lot of that is because Toyota/Japanese are VERY sensitive about trade deficits/wars. So they are one of the few companies that tries to minimize their success. I think Ford should do it themselves/factory for the opposite reasons; because it helps their bottom line / stock / perception. Plus buyers aren't that aware -- at least I wasn't. I know some mini-stuff isn't factory, but factory authorized is good from a buyers perspective too. And Factory installed is better still; increases the per-unit sales costs, which makes Ford look better AND customers happy. And more SE's means more unique cars in a common high-volume product.

So Ford isn't going BAD by the Stang. But I think they can and will do better. I'd like to see Ford take the Mustang global, throw many more options, keep tightening things up and improving quality, adding many features/options and being able to push the brand up in people's minds, and getting more from their wallets (for those options/features that they want). I'd like them to pull a Magnum/Charger/300 with the Stang and add in a Cougar and maybe mini-magnum thing in the same Genre, and leverage the cross-branding a bit. But as you said, they're past capacity -- so they need to add more capacity first. And I agree that BMW's cost more than Stangs -- but I'm not convinced that the model choice is the reason. BMW sells like 1M+ cars per year, and the #1 seller is the 3 series. I'd like to see Ford be able to get more out of a single brand both in money and variants too.

And to all. I realize they are different cars/categories. And I'm not trying to convert Mustang buyers to getting one. Just trying to think of making the buying experience (options) more like the one I had at a Mini dealer, or saw at a Scion, etc.... (you couldn't pay me to drive around in an XA/XB). Ford needs to use their excellent Euro car knowledge (Volvo, Euro-Focus, etc.), and apply that to American youth, and revitalize their dealerships / brand perception -- hoping that would help their marketshare and stock share pricing. Right now I'd say it goes Chrysler, Ford, GM in order of market perception on American cars. And Chrysler has lots of new cars coming next year, and GM is leaning up their products+divisions and adding in things like the Sky+Solstice, etc.... so Ford had better get more aggressive.

I agree: good conversation. Thanks all...

dke

P.S. (Reply to later post)... Just because you've got a lot of brand history with the Stang -- the Mini has nearly the brand history that Mustang has -- so I don't think they're just a trend that will be forgotten about tomorrow. I do think both brands have a lot of history. But then so does Porsche, Audi, the Vette, and many others. I love cars -- even new ones. Heck, the Sky/Solstice looks like it will be the Miata/Fiero of the next generation. And if they put the LS/2 in it (rumor as future option, or being done aftermarket already), it will be the next 427-Cobra.

StangerX

Great Stuff. I think I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel here. We're starting to shake hands across the table, and so I see good things.

This is important to my point. The reason it is so is because I think more parts are installed at the dealerships than people think. Ford had several dealer installed options that are "Ford Authorized" available at purchase. Those numbers are going up, and as the hunger for the big product settles down, Ford will inevitably offer an overwhelming number of products.

One of the things that excited me about buying a NEW Mustang was knowing that Ford has always had a HUGE selection of authorized parts that can be dealer installed after you purchase your car. Toyota kinda gives up. You either buy it that way, or you won't see it. Scion is their break from the mold, and it's a brilliant business strategy.

Dealers are crucial to customization. They offer factory produced parts, manufacturer back warranties, and installation. If there has ever been an area that the American makers have a corner on... it's the aftermarket and the dealer options.

I'm the same way, although I get lazy and do it all the time. Toejam tastes pretty good once you get used to it!

There are people across the web and around the world telling ALL of the automakers to listen to a similar cry. One of the best places to read about this kind of stuff is: Autoextremist

Peter Delorenzo has a handle on things in this respect. He gets listened to.

As far as the variants and options... I have long been an advocate of the Cougar returning as the mustang's sister car. It's long overdue. We agree there whole heartedly. What's sad is that Ford might miss the oportunity to capitalize on that.

Yet, they will still offer a dizzying number of variants with special options and packages for those looking for something a little more. Here's a prime example:

- from This site

These cars will offer the V6 owners the same perks they are looking for out of the V6 with the ability to option up to many of the comforts of a GT car - including some special Fogs. That's only the start. For those hungry for performance, the Shelby will fit the bill. Not to mention all of the other herritage nameplates that will most likely see a comeback - California Special, BOSS, Mach 1, Bullit, etc. Ford has a wealth of options to offer those looking for them. The car is just so fresh right now that they don't NEED to do it. They will though... stay tuned.

Lastly:
I am someone who will look you in the eyes and tell you that this is a world class car. I have been saying it ever since I bought it. The car is phenominally built and assembled. It's tight and unlike any Ford I've been in. I would even venture to say that it is nicer than the 2004 Mach1 that I rode in (with only a few miles on it). This car is increadible through and through.

To put my words into context, I quote myself:
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=447554

dke

The only things I'd say is that I think the Mustang is world class in its niche right now -- but while the niche isn't small at all (4 seat value-focused muscle coupe), it is still more narrow than many of it's competition (and more narrow than it needs to be). So other companies are world class in more variants and more geography -- Mustang is more niched geographically and demographically. As we agree, adding a cougar option would help (luxo-touring coupe), as would a few SE's and so on (to fill niches). And dealer/factory customization helps more too.

I think Ford was holding back because the didn't have the production, or wanted first year to go easy. Hopefully they'll scale up capacity and variety (as we agree). Ford will add other cars on the same platform, but they won't borrow any of the cachet of the Mustang. (too bad). I know purists might get a little offended by Mustang mini-wagon/hatch or sedan (with suicide doors), but you have to admit it would pressure on Chrysler/BMW/etc, and look good (business wise) as more sales in a single product family. Drop the costs on all (economies of scale and scope). And they could run two plants to adapt to demand. Instead Ford will let Volvo do the Wagon, Mazda do the Sedan, etc... but I think that costs them more, with lots of parallel development and redundancies and not taking full advantage of what they have. (IMHO)....

One last thing on numbers of sales to remember, Ford's are artificially high because of fleet sales and Hertz/etc.... that isn't a bad thing per say, but not all good either. I get the feeling foreign companies have less of those forced sales, thus more 1-on-1 customer sales (better for the dealer/sales channel). I don't know how may Toyota, BMW or Mini has, so that's a caveat emptor. But with Ford spinning off Hertz, it could change things. Also residual values would change if it wasn't for the fleet sales (for the better) and there was more customer sales instead.

And with dealerships -- I've learned it varies more by individual dealership than by brand. Sure, there are brand trends, but I've met good and bad dealers with every brand -- and even had radically different experiences in the same dealer depending on who I dealt with. So I tend to look at the dealer separate from the brand. So for me the reason my next car won't be a Bimmer is 40% because of value/reliability/cost, 40% because of Bangle/BMW-Design isn't doing it for me, and only the remainder is because of lousy dealerships in my area. (But that's just me). I'd be hard to convince to buy the mini for myself, despite good dealer experience, just because the closest is 45+ minutes away (and the next two are 2 hours each). I could reach 30 Ford dealers or more in the same distance -- and can guarantee that many of them would be very good. (I've visited 3 or 4, and not had a BAD experience -- just differing degrees of reasonable to good).

islandmustang

one thing i have to add to this is how does crash tests compare.the mini is quite small.

Thomas S

Hehe, a Mini is not a car I'd even consider buying. And I can't imagine anyone cross shopping it to a Mustang. I can see a woman driving one though. Hope she's happy with it.

Vandil

Considering the pic of the yellow GT that was rear ended by a jacked up f-350 I'd hate to see how the mini would look in the same situation.

Road bump...

Fazm

Guy here in phoenix has one that supercharged and turbocharged, which i dont really understand because it only works at whichever has the lowest boost. Only thing i can see that maybe the supercharger helps a little with the lowend? Anyway, he claims it has 300hp at the crank, which if it did, that would be one fast mini.

Fazm

Needless to say the person wouldnt be capable of coming back to a message board and report the incident.

mr_speedvision

I agree, with most of the opinions.. but Ford is a working man's car.
The only cars I remember Ford having that used simular parts and peices were the cars built in the sixties and seventies(Fairlane, Mustang, Cougar, Falcon, Comet, Grenada, Monarch, Pinto, Maverick).
Ford as a company likes to change things for no ryme or reason. They also try not to build too many cars that appeal to the same market as not to compete with its self. Heres an example, Ford had the Escort line since the eighties, there were two and four door, and station-wagon models. Ford marketed the Focus to the younger buyers who would be buying Civics, Corollas, Neons and other entry level cars. With the new Focus available dealers couldn't give away Escorts. So hence Ford dropped the Escort line.
Now if Ford did want to have a car to compete in the Mini segment I would reccomend that the focus should be on Focus(pun intended). This is a car offered internationally, although Europe seems to get the better models. I think that Ford should bring their Australian lineup to the States. Hopefully they will do a better job than GM did with the GTO.
The Mustang niche has been small for quite a while now. The only competition that Mustang has had since the eighties would be the Chevy Camaro and the Pontiac Firebird.
Ford also sell a large number of V6 Mustangs to rent a car companies.
I do not agree that a Mustang can be compared to any other car on the market right now fairly. A Mustang is not in the sme market as any German or Japanese car out there. The Mustang is an market all it's own. It's the competetors that need to step up with competition. The competition I am refering to is namely General Motors and Chrysler. The Mustang is a sport compact car by name only. It is in no way a Civic, Eclipse, G35, 350Z, Celica, Tiburon, 330ci...

dke

As an ex motorcycle rider, I'm not sure about safety. The upside is agility (low mass) can help you to avoid some accidents (if you're in the kind that you can avoid) and help in a few accidents -- but usually you want mass and size. I think it is more a function of mass, rigidity, distance to give (and angle of impact, etc.), what you hit, and how you hit it, and safety equipment. The Mini has better airbags, a rock solid space frame and bracing, seat belt tensioners and so on. I'd rather more mass, but I'd rather not be in an accident

I went to NTHSA and looked at the info compared to a stang.

The Mini outperfed the 2000 Mustangs; getting 4 stars on front, rear, side and rollover. (The stang got 3 in sides and rollover -- and only 2 in the vert). But the good news is the 2005 Mustang is better, getting 5 stars on front, rear and rollover (risk), but only the same 4 stars as the mini in side. (Probably mini had less mass, but better airbags). The Explorer had a couple of risks (rollover and the door unlatched on impact). And the Focus was only a 3 star in side impact (1 star if you're in the back-seat).

Would you feel safe driving in a 2000 Mustang or a Focus? For me it depends more on the driver and what you're doing. And I'd feel safer in a Mini on rollover damage than a 2005 Vert Stang (or any vert). So risks are relative.... I'd prefer more mass, but then tell that to people who drive roadsters....

Tres Wright

==She and I both are not fans of verts; too noisy, body flex, and we live where there's weather. So no go on the audi.==

The 'stang vert is really amazing. It is VERY solid (no flex) and amazingly quiet with the top up. As for the weather, it only takes about 15 seconds to put the top back up I love mine!

dke

I'm sure the Stang is better than the POS Siebring Vert we drove in Hawaii last week. We tried to rent the Stang -- but they "substituted" the creaky, loud, ugly, laborous, Siebring, that had the turning radius of a school bus, and handling that didn't match that. But I imagine weather in Ohio may not mean what weather means where you are. Plus a vert for 4 months of the year (max) makes no sense for us. Some people love verts, and if we were in Cali or Hawaii, I might consider one.

Tres Wright

Sebring vert? I think there was a Seinfeld episode about that POS

I'm in Texas (Dallas area), we don't get those glorious white snowy days you guys enjoy so thoroughly It's friggin-A HOT here! ALL the time! I still love the vert though, I've driven it home on 95+ days with the top down. When it gets to the point that I'm going to start sweating through my work clothes, I put the windows up and crank on the A/C. It actually does the trick even travelling at 70 mph. I really dig this car, first Ford-anything that I've ever owned. Reminds me of my old muscle cars but without all the bad habits.

Anyway, the Minis are very cool. I'm sure you guys will love it. I considered it and rejected it because of the dinky back seat and difficulty getting in and out of the back. Not that the stang is generous there, but I do have to haul the kids sometimes and it works for part-time duty. The Mini is definitely more of a sports car though. Hard to compare the two, they are vastly different vehicles.

ManEHawke

The Mini Cooper S is a great little car.
I don't want one, but it looks like you get your moneys worth.

Any performance stats on the S out there, I can't find any. Just curious in seeing some hard #'s.

Fazm

Performance
0 - 60 mph [secs] 7.0
0 - 100 mph [secs] 19.8
1/4 mile [secs at mph] 15.3 at 91.8

ManEHawke

Well thats pretty close to our cars, not sure what we do to 100 though. A little lower than I expected, but i suppose its ok since it is at a somewhat fair price. Do they handle way way superior #'s in the skidpad, because I believe I heard they have a balance of 60/40 or something odd like that. We do .79, but our stock tires really hold us back severely.

Anyway, nothing beats driving and looking at the long domed hood.

dke

Here's the numbers in an ugly format (from Automobile Mag)

2005 Ford
Mustang V-6 5AT
210/240
7.7 0-60
15.9 1/4
91 speed in 1/4
194 stopping 60-0
0.82/0.82 skidpad l/r
3460 weight
55 / 45 distro
$19,770 cost

2003 Mini
Cooper S
163/155
6.7
15.3
93
167
0.85/0.86
2685
61 / 39
$19,975

2005 Ford
Mustang GT 5MT
300/320
5.6
14.2
102
174
0.87/0.86
3600
53 / 47
$25,000

There's funny things about weight distro -- on FWD the front bias doesn't feel bad. It is over the power wheels. (Generally a power-wheel bias is better than 50/50). Hammering it in the corners gives less understeer than you'd think and just pulls you through. And the little booger stops quick enough to give you nose bleeds. But it isn't a 1/4 miler. The JCW cooper is a little better. But still, there's only so much you can do with a 1.6 i4. The weird thing is I read and drive specs -- and the fun factor is something else off chart -- the Mustang feels better than cars that beat it in specs, and the mini is a little bomb, even if the specs don't seem that hot.