Ways to improve throttle response?
12/5/04, 11:59 PM
#21
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Originally posted by Dan+December 5, 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dan @ December 5, 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-LordBritish@December 5, 2004, 10:20 PM
I'm sure there is a way to improve the response (reduce lag) by tuning - or at least I hope there is.
I'm sure there is a way to improve the response (reduce lag) by tuning - or at least I hope there is.
So, my question is, how would tuning chance the fundamental way an auto tranny operates and thus eliminate or reduce lag? [/b][/quote]
Basically, the tuning software tells the transmission to firm up shifts. I am not really sure how this works, but I would assume its the same concept as a "shift kit".
12/6/04, 06:57 AM
#22
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They are just increasing line pressure in the trans to firm up the shifts.
Newer auto trans like the 5R55S have servos and have quite a bit more computer control than older trans designs. The computer controls everything, and if it is programmed by the factory to respond later to reduce other problems like drivetrain clunks, etc, then it will have to be reprogrammed to change the operating characteristics of the car. Think about it. There is no cable going to the throttle from your gas pedal on the S197, and no mechanical connection from the throttle to the trans, like you'd find in an older carburated car. The computer completely owns the control of the engine and transmission.
Newer auto trans like the 5R55S have servos and have quite a bit more computer control than older trans designs. The computer controls everything, and if it is programmed by the factory to respond later to reduce other problems like drivetrain clunks, etc, then it will have to be reprogrammed to change the operating characteristics of the car. Think about it. There is no cable going to the throttle from your gas pedal on the S197, and no mechanical connection from the throttle to the trans, like you'd find in an older carburated car. The computer completely owns the control of the engine and transmission.
12/7/04, 04:39 PM
#23
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Well, switching gears doesn't help, as I have the auto and suffer from the same lag at start and between gear shifts even AFTER installing the 4.10 rear end. Car obviously moves A LOT better now, but i still notice it and it is aggravating. I'm doing the SCT tune on the 18th in hopes that it will alleviate this issue. I'm happy regardless, but it would be nice not to lose those precious tenths in the quarter mile because of it...
12/7/04, 07:57 PM
#24
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Originally posted by lodom@December 6, 2004, 10:00 AM
They are just increasing line pressure in the trans to firm up the shifts.
Newer auto trans like the 5R55S have servos and have quite a bit more computer control than older trans designs. The computer controls everything, and if it is programmed by the factory to respond later to reduce other problems like drivetrain clunks, etc, then it will have to be reprogrammed to change the operating characteristics of the car. Think about it. There is no cable going to the throttle from your gas pedal on the S197, and no mechanical connection from the throttle to the trans, like you'd find in an older carburated car. The computer completely owns the control of the engine and transmission.
They are just increasing line pressure in the trans to firm up the shifts.
Newer auto trans like the 5R55S have servos and have quite a bit more computer control than older trans designs. The computer controls everything, and if it is programmed by the factory to respond later to reduce other problems like drivetrain clunks, etc, then it will have to be reprogrammed to change the operating characteristics of the car. Think about it. There is no cable going to the throttle from your gas pedal on the S197, and no mechanical connection from the throttle to the trans, like you'd find in an older carburated car. The computer completely owns the control of the engine and transmission.
12/8/04, 01:45 AM
#25
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Originally posted by RRRoamer@December 5, 2004, 12:43 PM
The original SR-71 (or A-12 if you want to back to when it was an Air Force project) was not a fly by wire plane. It could not have been. The thing was designed in the late 50s. In that time, a computer fast enough to fly a jet would take up more space than the fuel tanks do.
It was only in the late '70s and '80s that fly by wire became common and even required. Because the computer could react faster than a human (the human brain is a fantastic machine, low response time is NOT it's best feature...), the designers were able to design and build fighters that had less and less dynamic stability (A very short explanation: stable if the center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift of the main wing and unstable if the center of gravity is behind the center of lift of the main wing. The futher apart the two are, the more stable or unstable the aircraft is). This allowed the aircraft to react faster and faster to control inputs and have increased performance. AKA: quicker. Plus, they were able to design in a "nice" flight behavior that the pilot felt so even though the plane was always on the hair edge of "freaking out", it felt nice and stable to guy pushing the stick around.
The plane that took this to extremes was the X-29. This experimental aircraft had forward swept wings (33 degrees at the leading edge, 45 at the trailing edge) that were designed with some VERY advanced composite wing skins to cause the tip of the wing to twist DOWN as the wing flexed UP. That is backwards from normal BTW. This allowed the plane to stay together and actually structurally fly. NASA also made this plane something like 36% (if my memory is still working) unstable (unheard of before or since). Basically, at cruise speed (subsonic), if all the flight computers where to fail (3 digital with an analog backup!), the aircraft would swap ends and rip itself apart in less than 1/60th of a second. The pilot did NOT fly this airplane. He simply asked the computer to move it were he wanted it to go.
And they DO occasionaly reuse fighter aircraft names. Example: Lockheed P-38 Lightening and the Lockheed/Martin F-22 Lightening II just now hitting service. I DO believe that the military will only allow this under special circumstances and it has to be built by the same manufacturer. Given that North American no longer exists, I would have to say the P-51 should be unique!
Favorite piston plane: P-51 Mustang (of course!). Favorite Ford Mustang: 1969 Mach 1 followed VERY close by the 2005 GT. I'm sure the last 2 will change once I get MY 2005 GT!
On topic: When I test drove a black GT a couple of weeks ago (put just over 40 miles on it), I did not notice any thing "funny" with the throttle response. Of course, I was having so much fun playing, it probabally would have had to be pretty blatant for me to notice....
The original SR-71 (or A-12 if you want to back to when it was an Air Force project) was not a fly by wire plane. It could not have been. The thing was designed in the late 50s. In that time, a computer fast enough to fly a jet would take up more space than the fuel tanks do.
It was only in the late '70s and '80s that fly by wire became common and even required. Because the computer could react faster than a human (the human brain is a fantastic machine, low response time is NOT it's best feature...), the designers were able to design and build fighters that had less and less dynamic stability (A very short explanation: stable if the center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift of the main wing and unstable if the center of gravity is behind the center of lift of the main wing. The futher apart the two are, the more stable or unstable the aircraft is). This allowed the aircraft to react faster and faster to control inputs and have increased performance. AKA: quicker. Plus, they were able to design in a "nice" flight behavior that the pilot felt so even though the plane was always on the hair edge of "freaking out", it felt nice and stable to guy pushing the stick around.
The plane that took this to extremes was the X-29. This experimental aircraft had forward swept wings (33 degrees at the leading edge, 45 at the trailing edge) that were designed with some VERY advanced composite wing skins to cause the tip of the wing to twist DOWN as the wing flexed UP. That is backwards from normal BTW. This allowed the plane to stay together and actually structurally fly. NASA also made this plane something like 36% (if my memory is still working) unstable (unheard of before or since). Basically, at cruise speed (subsonic), if all the flight computers where to fail (3 digital with an analog backup!), the aircraft would swap ends and rip itself apart in less than 1/60th of a second. The pilot did NOT fly this airplane. He simply asked the computer to move it were he wanted it to go.
And they DO occasionaly reuse fighter aircraft names. Example: Lockheed P-38 Lightening and the Lockheed/Martin F-22 Lightening II just now hitting service. I DO believe that the military will only allow this under special circumstances and it has to be built by the same manufacturer. Given that North American no longer exists, I would have to say the P-51 should be unique!
Favorite piston plane: P-51 Mustang (of course!). Favorite Ford Mustang: 1969 Mach 1 followed VERY close by the 2005 GT. I'm sure the last 2 will change once I get MY 2005 GT!
On topic: When I test drove a black GT a couple of weeks ago (put just over 40 miles on it), I did not notice any thing "funny" with the throttle response. Of course, I was having so much fun playing, it probabally would have had to be pretty blatant for me to notice....
Brad I know you can't sit on everyone of these guys but don't you agree it is out of hand. You start following a thread and some guy comes in and goes 180 off the subject.
3/18/05, 06:43 PM
#26
I also believe it is all in the fly by wire system, a scan should change the computer thus fixing the prob...I test drove a bone stock 98 Vette last month, the automatic performed excellent, real fast and instant response, zero lag.
I ordered a 5 spd, I think a good test would be to have someone with a manual car cruise in 3rd gear at an rpm that is well within the power band, then punch it right to the floor (no downshifting), and see how the response is...if it is the same hesitation , then i would say it is the computer/fly by wire system and a scan will fix it, if the response is instant on the manual, then i would think the problem with the auto is in the tranny
I ordered a 5 spd, I think a good test would be to have someone with a manual car cruise in 3rd gear at an rpm that is well within the power band, then punch it right to the floor (no downshifting), and see how the response is...if it is the same hesitation , then i would say it is the computer/fly by wire system and a scan will fix it, if the response is instant on the manual, then i would think the problem with the auto is in the tranny
3/18/05, 11:19 PM
#28
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Guys - having owned an 2001 Lincoln LS V8 Sport (same auto tranny) for two years I can attest that this transmission "thinks" to much. My auto had the same kind of response delays and on occaision, would lurch/bang into gear, etc. It was a sturdy tranny though - but you had to learn to live with the computer control.
Lincoln even reflashed my tranny with a newer software program which helped a bit - but still the new auto's tend to be too computer controlled and you can really feel it in the delay/hesitation.......my '05 manual GT has no hesitation whatsoever at any RPM when hitting WOT...
Lincoln even reflashed my tranny with a newer software program which helped a bit - but still the new auto's tend to be too computer controlled and you can really feel it in the delay/hesitation.......my '05 manual GT has no hesitation whatsoever at any RPM when hitting WOT...
3/19/05, 01:45 AM
#30
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Who dug this thread up?
Anyhows, even after a canned SCT tune (no dyno), my lag is still there (automatic 05 GT).
It's most noticeable when you're trying to pass another car - that's when you need the instant acceleration the most. For some reason, the silly computer takes a nap which can last sometimes 2 seconds - i'm serious. It's like it suddenly wakes up a says "oh yea, the pedal is to the metal, ok, ummm, yea .... that means I should go WOT. Ok, I'll guess I'll do it in a momemt.".
In my opinion, there is something basically wrong with the programming. It shouln't take that long.
Anyhows, even after a canned SCT tune (no dyno), my lag is still there (automatic 05 GT).
It's most noticeable when you're trying to pass another car - that's when you need the instant acceleration the most. For some reason, the silly computer takes a nap which can last sometimes 2 seconds - i'm serious. It's like it suddenly wakes up a says "oh yea, the pedal is to the metal, ok, ummm, yea .... that means I should go WOT. Ok, I'll guess I'll do it in a momemt.".
In my opinion, there is something basically wrong with the programming. It shouln't take that long.
3/19/05, 07:10 AM
#31
Originally posted by LordBritish@March 19, 2005, 2:48 AM
Who dug this thread up?
Anyhows, even after a canned SCT tune (no dyno), my lag is still there (automatic 05 GT).
It's most noticeable when you're trying to pass another car - that's when you need the instant acceleration the most. For some reason, the silly computer takes a nap which can last sometimes 2 seconds - i'm serious. It's like it suddenly wakes up a says "oh yea, the pedal is to the metal, ok, ummm, yea .... that means I should go WOT. Ok, I'll guess I'll do it in a momemt.".
In my opinion, there is something basically wrong with the programming. It shouln't take that long.
Who dug this thread up?
Anyhows, even after a canned SCT tune (no dyno), my lag is still there (automatic 05 GT).
It's most noticeable when you're trying to pass another car - that's when you need the instant acceleration the most. For some reason, the silly computer takes a nap which can last sometimes 2 seconds - i'm serious. It's like it suddenly wakes up a says "oh yea, the pedal is to the metal, ok, ummm, yea .... that means I should go WOT. Ok, I'll guess I'll do it in a momemt.".
In my opinion, there is something basically wrong with the programming. It shouln't take that long.
3/19/05, 01:55 PM
#34
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Originally posted by SixtySix@March 19, 2005, 11:11 AM
Don't "plan" for it, Override it. Manually drop a gear, punch it, NO delay.
Don't "plan" for it, Override it. Manually drop a gear, punch it, NO delay.
3/20/05, 03:01 PM
#36
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I've driven nothing but automatics all my life. The response on my 05 GT I must say is the worse. I actually need to start "planning" my acceleration when hitting it to merge on expressways and to pass other cars quickly. You hit the gas and nothing happens for about a full second then all of a sudden your off like a bat out of you know where. I actually have a tendency of putting the throttle down harder than I really need to just because my foot and brain is waiting for a response from the car that is not happening while I am continuing to put my foot down even further. My 10 year old Neon has a better throttle response time just not the power naturally.
This is about the only performance complaint I've had about this car so far and will get a tune to try to correct this problem as soon as I get more miles on it to make sure there are no other problems.
If anybody has any other remedies please let me know.
Thanks
This is about the only performance complaint I've had about this car so far and will get a tune to try to correct this problem as soon as I get more miles on it to make sure there are no other problems.
If anybody has any other remedies please let me know.
Thanks
3/20/05, 04:03 PM
#38
Originally posted by Mongoose@March 20, 2005, 4:36 PM
Man you just got the car and you are crabbing already. LOL It also will not slow down righaway when you get off the gas. That scares me !!
Man you just got the car and you are crabbing already. LOL It also will not slow down righaway when you get off the gas. That scares me !!
3/22/05, 11:28 AM
#39
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Good grief! I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed you to Alternative Auto Performance's website. Check out the information excerpted from their site at the following address:
http://www.alternativeauto.com/misc/...pressions.html
"2005 Mustang GT Driving Impresssions
As a performance tuner/enthusiast, one of the most noticeable tuning drawbacks the automatic '05 Mustang has is what is known as “Torque-Reduction” during up-shifts and down-shifts. Ford calibration people actually pull as much as 10 to 30 percent or more power from the motor during shifts so that the trans will last longer, feel better and some what softer when shifting. This can really be felt especially at wide open throttle, and even the tone of the engine changes as the power is briefly reduced during the shifts.
Our custom tune for the automatic '05 GT has already made a significant difference in how the car feels and performs during the shifts. Our tune actually chirps the tires very hard during the 1-2 shift and now shifts very positively during the rest of the shifts from part throttle to WOT. I still feel that with the TQ reduction turned off, these automatics will still last a long time with stock and moderately increased power levels. We're still not sure though what they'll take long term with big power adders as it's in its infancy right now, but we intend to find out."
This company appears to be in the forefront of research into the capabilites and limitations of the '05 Mustang automatic. As you can see, they have already developed a tune for it to eliminate the lag during shifting.
http://www.alternativeauto.com/misc/...pressions.html
"2005 Mustang GT Driving Impresssions
As a performance tuner/enthusiast, one of the most noticeable tuning drawbacks the automatic '05 Mustang has is what is known as “Torque-Reduction” during up-shifts and down-shifts. Ford calibration people actually pull as much as 10 to 30 percent or more power from the motor during shifts so that the trans will last longer, feel better and some what softer when shifting. This can really be felt especially at wide open throttle, and even the tone of the engine changes as the power is briefly reduced during the shifts.
Our custom tune for the automatic '05 GT has already made a significant difference in how the car feels and performs during the shifts. Our tune actually chirps the tires very hard during the 1-2 shift and now shifts very positively during the rest of the shifts from part throttle to WOT. I still feel that with the TQ reduction turned off, these automatics will still last a long time with stock and moderately increased power levels. We're still not sure though what they'll take long term with big power adders as it's in its infancy right now, but we intend to find out."
This company appears to be in the forefront of research into the capabilites and limitations of the '05 Mustang automatic. As you can see, they have already developed a tune for it to eliminate the lag during shifting.
3/22/05, 11:57 AM
#40
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Wow. I totally believe that guy. He posted pictures and everything. He must be an expert.
Just be careful of what you read. This forum has a vast library of information, and it must all be taken with an open mind.
Just be careful of what you read. This forum has a vast library of information, and it must all be taken with an open mind.