Pictures of BLOWN 05 GT engine
12/3/05, 09:13 PM
#42
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Originally posted by sranger@December 2, 2005, 10:27 PM
Clerification...
First, as is stated before, the numbers posted are from the Saleen web site. It shows there specs for their SC model with the stock internals...
I have not even got my SC kit yet... ( waiting impatiently )
The point I was trying to make about a tune is that it is easy to over rev the engine on a dyno if your tuner is not paying attention. This is especially true if they are tinkering with the rev limiter. It is also true that once the tuner starts the process, it is likely that the F/A ratio, timing will be off during much of the tuning process. In other words the engine is being stressed, but is not yet tuned. This is very much the case when you are adding power adders like SC or nitrous. However, even a simple CAI can really throw the 05 out of wack. Also, there is not as much air moving through the car on the dyno as there is while actually driving it. So heat build up on repetitive pulls must also be watched carfully.
Someone having some fun with a car is NOT tinkering with the fule/air, timing, rev limit, etc, while they are playing. That is why I think the dyno pulls are more likely to go boom...
Now a good tuner is of course watching all of the info and will shut it down if they see somthing moving in the wrong direction and also use a cooling fan between runs to avoid heat build up. My intent was to point out that a distracted or incompetent tuner can do a lot of damage during the tuning process it self...
And for your driving habit question, I am at an age where I probably would not thrash a car as much a younger person might. But I still love a run down the strip and a burn out or two...
Clerification...
First, as is stated before, the numbers posted are from the Saleen web site. It shows there specs for their SC model with the stock internals...
I have not even got my SC kit yet... ( waiting impatiently )
The point I was trying to make about a tune is that it is easy to over rev the engine on a dyno if your tuner is not paying attention. This is especially true if they are tinkering with the rev limiter. It is also true that once the tuner starts the process, it is likely that the F/A ratio, timing will be off during much of the tuning process. In other words the engine is being stressed, but is not yet tuned. This is very much the case when you are adding power adders like SC or nitrous. However, even a simple CAI can really throw the 05 out of wack. Also, there is not as much air moving through the car on the dyno as there is while actually driving it. So heat build up on repetitive pulls must also be watched carfully.
Someone having some fun with a car is NOT tinkering with the fule/air, timing, rev limit, etc, while they are playing. That is why I think the dyno pulls are more likely to go boom...
Now a good tuner is of course watching all of the info and will shut it down if they see somthing moving in the wrong direction and also use a cooling fan between runs to avoid heat build up. My intent was to point out that a distracted or incompetent tuner can do a lot of damage during the tuning process it self...
And for your driving habit question, I am at an age where I probably would not thrash a car as much a younger person might. But I still love a run down the strip and a burn out or two...
When you sort out your car and your blower install then tell us how everything worked out.
No animosity intended.
I'll wager you there are a lot of older guys here that hammer their GTs the same way we did in the 60s. I do for sure. I purchased mine to kill rice and it does.
12/3/05, 10:08 PM
#43
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Originally posted by sranger@December 2, 2005, 8:27 PM
Clerification...
First, as is stated before, the numbers posted are from the Saleen web site. It shows there specs for their SC model with the stock internals...
I have not even got my SC kit yet... ( waiting impatiently )
The point I was trying to make about a tune is that it is easy to over rev the engine on a dyno if your tuner is not paying attention. This is especially true if they are tinkering with the rev limiter. It is also true that once the tuner starts the process, it is likely that the F/A ratio, timing will be off during much of the tuning process. In other words the engine is being stressed, but is not yet tuned. This is very much the case when you are adding power adders like SC or nitrous. However, even a simple CAI can really throw the 05 out of wack. Also, there is not as much air moving through the car on the dyno as there is while actually driving it. So heat build up on repetitive pulls must also be watched carfully.
Someone having some fun with a car is NOT tinkering with the fule/air, timing, rev limit, etc, while they are playing. That is why I think the dyno pulls are more likely to go boom...
Now a good tuner is of course watching all of the info and will shut it down if they see somthing moving in the wrong direction and also use a cooling fan between runs to avoid heat build up. My intent was to point out that a distracted or incompetent tuner can do a lot of damage during the tuning process it self...
And for your driving habit question, I am at an age where I probably would not thrash a car as much a younger person might. But I still love a run down the strip and a burn out or two...
Clerification...
First, as is stated before, the numbers posted are from the Saleen web site. It shows there specs for their SC model with the stock internals...
I have not even got my SC kit yet... ( waiting impatiently )
The point I was trying to make about a tune is that it is easy to over rev the engine on a dyno if your tuner is not paying attention. This is especially true if they are tinkering with the rev limiter. It is also true that once the tuner starts the process, it is likely that the F/A ratio, timing will be off during much of the tuning process. In other words the engine is being stressed, but is not yet tuned. This is very much the case when you are adding power adders like SC or nitrous. However, even a simple CAI can really throw the 05 out of wack. Also, there is not as much air moving through the car on the dyno as there is while actually driving it. So heat build up on repetitive pulls must also be watched carfully.
Someone having some fun with a car is NOT tinkering with the fule/air, timing, rev limit, etc, while they are playing. That is why I think the dyno pulls are more likely to go boom...
Now a good tuner is of course watching all of the info and will shut it down if they see somthing moving in the wrong direction and also use a cooling fan between runs to avoid heat build up. My intent was to point out that a distracted or incompetent tuner can do a lot of damage during the tuning process it self...
And for your driving habit question, I am at an age where I probably would not thrash a car as much a younger person might. But I still love a run down the strip and a burn out or two...
So like I mentioned earlier in the thread, its best to not rev the motor up towards 6400+ RPM on regular pump gas.. If your going to go high rev happy, best to use race fuel only... Also, for dailey use, keep the rev limiter to the stock 6200RPM..?????????
12/4/05, 03:27 AM
#44
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Wow, with me lingering around its only so long before I climb into the discussion.
I do agree that the rotating assembly, by its nature, is weak for power levels of 450+rwhp. At this point, the life of the motor is mostly in the hands of a tuner. Everything better be right cause even a little detonation will cause that precious motor of yours to go BOOM. At lower horsepower settings, the risk is much less and those same little tuning issues dont neccessarily mean the destruction of your motor.
Case and Point...
I was one of the very first to play with Nitrous and the first to custom work a kit. My first trip to the track with about 370rwhp (with that very fun 100 shot) in 90+ degree heat went without issue with a canned JLT tune. At this time, my WOT shift points were set at 6200 rpm and no timing was pulled from that 91 Octane tune.
The next visit didnt go as well. A little bit of difference in the tune, even in cooler temperatures, provided a bit of detonation that ended up taking out all 8 of my stock Spark Plugs (say buh-bye to those solid ground straps). Its been an oil change and several thousand miles later and my motor is still running as strong as before the little incident that was too close for comfort.
Even a mildy aggressive shot of nitrous and enough detonation to kill 8 plugs isnt enough to kill these motors. If the same thing happened with a larger shot or some SuperCharged (Turbos offer even more tuning issues) application pushing 500rwhp Im sure the motor would have been destroyed. Detonation followed by Piston Slap and far too much stress on the Skirts and Rods to the point of windowing the block.
Back to the possibility of rotating assembly failure due to high power levels without the initial cause from detonation (too much timing, bad gas, whatever the cause)...
Our cars offer a great deal for the performance enthuthiast, a snappy 300bhp for a great price. Using stronger rods and pistons is one place most of us (with big plans for big power) would have gladly payed extra for right off the sales floor.
Our engines are all built with different breaking points, keep that in mind when putting an extraordinary amount of stress on the cheap internals. If someone makes 550rwhp with a Procharged combo with all stock internals dont even begin to think you will be able to match that. Chances are that that same 550rwhp vehicle is gona need a new engine before long.
The rods arent up to snuff, the pistons' rings are located horribly (for boost apps), what more do you people want?
Does this thread really have to go on much longer? Perhaps we can place the blame for this customer's "bruised" engine on an Act of God.
As power adder users we all take the risk of "extreme engine damage". Im looking forward to big power some day but I know its gona cost about $8000 dollars to make safe power with a Blower or Turbo. I just cant see myself using a Blower when it comes down to the all mighty dollar to horsepower ratio. If I can someday make 600rwhp with a whole bunch of nitrous I'll be one very happy (single) boy.
Ending keywords...
Excessive RPM, Bad Gas, Too Far Advanced Timing, Too much Boost, Weak Stock Components.
-Dan
I do agree that the rotating assembly, by its nature, is weak for power levels of 450+rwhp. At this point, the life of the motor is mostly in the hands of a tuner. Everything better be right cause even a little detonation will cause that precious motor of yours to go BOOM. At lower horsepower settings, the risk is much less and those same little tuning issues dont neccessarily mean the destruction of your motor.
Case and Point...
I was one of the very first to play with Nitrous and the first to custom work a kit. My first trip to the track with about 370rwhp (with that very fun 100 shot) in 90+ degree heat went without issue with a canned JLT tune. At this time, my WOT shift points were set at 6200 rpm and no timing was pulled from that 91 Octane tune.
The next visit didnt go as well. A little bit of difference in the tune, even in cooler temperatures, provided a bit of detonation that ended up taking out all 8 of my stock Spark Plugs (say buh-bye to those solid ground straps). Its been an oil change and several thousand miles later and my motor is still running as strong as before the little incident that was too close for comfort.
Even a mildy aggressive shot of nitrous and enough detonation to kill 8 plugs isnt enough to kill these motors. If the same thing happened with a larger shot or some SuperCharged (Turbos offer even more tuning issues) application pushing 500rwhp Im sure the motor would have been destroyed. Detonation followed by Piston Slap and far too much stress on the Skirts and Rods to the point of windowing the block.
Back to the possibility of rotating assembly failure due to high power levels without the initial cause from detonation (too much timing, bad gas, whatever the cause)...
Our cars offer a great deal for the performance enthuthiast, a snappy 300bhp for a great price. Using stronger rods and pistons is one place most of us (with big plans for big power) would have gladly payed extra for right off the sales floor.
Our engines are all built with different breaking points, keep that in mind when putting an extraordinary amount of stress on the cheap internals. If someone makes 550rwhp with a Procharged combo with all stock internals dont even begin to think you will be able to match that. Chances are that that same 550rwhp vehicle is gona need a new engine before long.
The rods arent up to snuff, the pistons' rings are located horribly (for boost apps), what more do you people want?
Does this thread really have to go on much longer? Perhaps we can place the blame for this customer's "bruised" engine on an Act of God.
As power adder users we all take the risk of "extreme engine damage". Im looking forward to big power some day but I know its gona cost about $8000 dollars to make safe power with a Blower or Turbo. I just cant see myself using a Blower when it comes down to the all mighty dollar to horsepower ratio. If I can someday make 600rwhp with a whole bunch of nitrous I'll be one very happy (single) boy.
Ending keywords...
Excessive RPM, Bad Gas, Too Far Advanced Timing, Too much Boost, Weak Stock Components.
-Dan
12/4/05, 08:18 AM
#45
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Brent, First my reagrds to the gentleman that lost his motor.
I have had thoughts of cramming a crank/ rods/ piston combo in our 05, but I may be apt to retain it for a bit longer to see if it is truely a power level issue.
I have posted this in other "I blew up my 05" motor threads, But I will cover this one more time.
Folks will start to realize that cars will not run for ever just by running out and throwing a "kit" on it and driving it away.
YOU SHOULD HAVE A CUSTOM TUNE.
Chassis dyno's are everywhere, Tuning softwares are just a few clicks away, there is absolutly no reason why someone should not have it done.
There are 3 Major issues with how the procharger system ships,
1) The MAF is dangerously close to the end it's range
2) The fuel pump comes up short, This can be watched on a data log.
3) The netted a/f is no where near the targeted a/f. I have seen procharger installed kits that netted a/f ratios in the mid 13's, when it is actually a commanded 12.3.
If you notice #3, it says that the commanded a/f leaner than 12, yep it is.
I think it is done for one or two reasons or possibly a combonation of both.
1) The Fuel system cannot support enough fuel to maintain an afr any richer than 12.3, not without significant pressure drop.
2) The power Gains that are related to the a/f
So here are some things to keep in mind, The 39# cobra injector works very well, especially with returnless fuel. The powerlevel that our car (570rwhp) and others is possible by the use of returnless fuel system. The computer can automatically raise fuel pressure to increase the amount of fuel through the injector, essentially making the injector flow say 60#. Kinda like an "electronic FMU".
So fuel can be not only by the pulse width but by also controlling pressure.
The injectors will NOT be capable of doing this additional flow by Fuel Pressure rise without a suficient supply of fuel (aka pump).
A fuel pump looses the ability to deliver a volume of fuel as pressure increases. so in a nut shell, pressure goes up, volume goes down.
There is alot of stuff going on at one time,
1) Boost, (9-10-12 PSI whatever it may be)
2) + Commanded Pressure DeltaP (typically 39 psi) (basically fuel pressure over the charge air pressure) add the two together and you get your actual fuel pressure, 12+39= 51psi
3) + whatever the computer would like to raise it to compensate for a small injector.
So you can see that we have increased the operating psi of our fuel system, but as stated above when pressure goes up, volume goes down.
If the volume goes down tooo much we can not supply the pressure required to net our 39# deltap or have the ability to utilize our "electronic fmu".
I have seen the p1 systems net only 32# DeltaP. With a commanded 12.3 afr. If the commanded a/f were 11.8 Fuel Pressure DeltaP would fall to below 30. Indicating that the fuel system is not adequit.
Most guys, who have not had there car logged or tuned, would not realize and perform a pulley change to increase the boost psi, in effect raising f/p and the above circle starts.
Hope this helps out.
BTW, as power increases the motor becomes less knock tolerant.
You can rattle the heck out of it when it is stock, but if youre making in excess of 400 it would explode.
I have had thoughts of cramming a crank/ rods/ piston combo in our 05, but I may be apt to retain it for a bit longer to see if it is truely a power level issue.
I have posted this in other "I blew up my 05" motor threads, But I will cover this one more time.
Folks will start to realize that cars will not run for ever just by running out and throwing a "kit" on it and driving it away.
YOU SHOULD HAVE A CUSTOM TUNE.
Chassis dyno's are everywhere, Tuning softwares are just a few clicks away, there is absolutly no reason why someone should not have it done.
There are 3 Major issues with how the procharger system ships,
1) The MAF is dangerously close to the end it's range
2) The fuel pump comes up short, This can be watched on a data log.
3) The netted a/f is no where near the targeted a/f. I have seen procharger installed kits that netted a/f ratios in the mid 13's, when it is actually a commanded 12.3.
If you notice #3, it says that the commanded a/f leaner than 12, yep it is.
I think it is done for one or two reasons or possibly a combonation of both.
1) The Fuel system cannot support enough fuel to maintain an afr any richer than 12.3, not without significant pressure drop.
2) The power Gains that are related to the a/f
So here are some things to keep in mind, The 39# cobra injector works very well, especially with returnless fuel. The powerlevel that our car (570rwhp) and others is possible by the use of returnless fuel system. The computer can automatically raise fuel pressure to increase the amount of fuel through the injector, essentially making the injector flow say 60#. Kinda like an "electronic FMU".
So fuel can be not only by the pulse width but by also controlling pressure.
The injectors will NOT be capable of doing this additional flow by Fuel Pressure rise without a suficient supply of fuel (aka pump).
A fuel pump looses the ability to deliver a volume of fuel as pressure increases. so in a nut shell, pressure goes up, volume goes down.
There is alot of stuff going on at one time,
1) Boost, (9-10-12 PSI whatever it may be)
2) + Commanded Pressure DeltaP (typically 39 psi) (basically fuel pressure over the charge air pressure) add the two together and you get your actual fuel pressure, 12+39= 51psi
3) + whatever the computer would like to raise it to compensate for a small injector.
So you can see that we have increased the operating psi of our fuel system, but as stated above when pressure goes up, volume goes down.
If the volume goes down tooo much we can not supply the pressure required to net our 39# deltap or have the ability to utilize our "electronic fmu".
I have seen the p1 systems net only 32# DeltaP. With a commanded 12.3 afr. If the commanded a/f were 11.8 Fuel Pressure DeltaP would fall to below 30. Indicating that the fuel system is not adequit.
Most guys, who have not had there car logged or tuned, would not realize and perform a pulley change to increase the boost psi, in effect raising f/p and the above circle starts.
Hope this helps out.
BTW, as power increases the motor becomes less knock tolerant.
You can rattle the heck out of it when it is stock, but if youre making in excess of 400 it would explode.
12/4/05, 09:02 AM
#46
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There is an interesting write up in MM&FF this month about installing a blower on an 05. Work is being done in Paul's shop and it was noted that there was a serious lack of fuel. You might want to read this.
12/4/05, 09:11 AM
#47
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Well Moongoos,
First of all, I do not think I ever claimed to be an expert on this new motor. Second, I have been working with a few tuners on my car, truck, and suv and have learned a great deal about how they do their job. I even wrote some software for one that helps him sort out logged data.
I am a mechanical and electrical engineer as well as a software programmer. An engine is not all that technical compared to most of the stuff I work on. However, knowing that many tuners do have much more experiance that me, I obviously use them to work on my autos.
However, a basic understanding of what is going on during the process and what problems that might cause is not all that hard to grasp...
I really do not see why you felt the need to be such an horses a-$$, but that is certianly your right to do so....
First of all, I do not think I ever claimed to be an expert on this new motor. Second, I have been working with a few tuners on my car, truck, and suv and have learned a great deal about how they do their job. I even wrote some software for one that helps him sort out logged data.
I am a mechanical and electrical engineer as well as a software programmer. An engine is not all that technical compared to most of the stuff I work on. However, knowing that many tuners do have much more experiance that me, I obviously use them to work on my autos.
However, a basic understanding of what is going on during the process and what problems that might cause is not all that hard to grasp...
I really do not see why you felt the need to be such an horses a-$$, but that is certianly your right to do so....
12/4/05, 09:23 AM
#48
I have seen alot of 05 GT SC installs making upwards of 500 hp and wondered why they can take that kind of HP when the "experts" say 400 is about the limit for 96-04 4.6's (that use basically the same Hyper-Pathetic rods and pistons). Well I guess we are finding out the 05+ 4.6's can't take it either
12/4/05, 05:36 PM
#50
I've seen some of your other posts where you have taken the '05 up to 6,800 with no ill effects. I take mine to 6,300-6,400 regularly and it sounds great, but pics like that get me nervous...
12/5/05, 06:37 AM
#51
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Originally posted by Import-Slaya@December 4, 2005, 6:39 PM
Brent, what year engine are those lifters from? With the missed shift, did the sudden jump in revs cause the cam lobes to smash into the rollers, or do you think it was just a flawed batch of lifters?
I've seen some of your other posts where you have taken the '05 up to 6,800 with no ill effects. I take mine to 6,300-6,400 regularly and it sounds great, but pics like that get me nervous...
Brent, what year engine are those lifters from? With the missed shift, did the sudden jump in revs cause the cam lobes to smash into the rollers, or do you think it was just a flawed batch of lifters?
I've seen some of your other posts where you have taken the '05 up to 6,800 with no ill effects. I take mine to 6,300-6,400 regularly and it sounds great, but pics like that get me nervous...
12/5/05, 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Mike@PowerHouse@December 4, 2005, 8:21 AM
There are 3 Major issues with how the procharger system ships,
1) The MAF is dangerously close to the end it's range
2) The fuel pump comes up short, This can be watched on a data log.
3) The netted a/f is no where near the targeted a/f. I have seen procharger installed kits that netted a/f ratios in the mid 13's, when it is actually a commanded 12.3.
The injectors will NOT be capable of doing this additional flow by Fuel Pressure rise without a suficient supply of fuel (aka pump).
A fuel pump looses the ability to deliver a volume of fuel as pressure increases. so in a nut shell, pressure goes up, volume goes down.
There are 3 Major issues with how the procharger system ships,
1) The MAF is dangerously close to the end it's range
2) The fuel pump comes up short, This can be watched on a data log.
3) The netted a/f is no where near the targeted a/f. I have seen procharger installed kits that netted a/f ratios in the mid 13's, when it is actually a commanded 12.3.
The injectors will NOT be capable of doing this additional flow by Fuel Pressure rise without a suficient supply of fuel (aka pump).
A fuel pump looses the ability to deliver a volume of fuel as pressure increases. so in a nut shell, pressure goes up, volume goes down.
If you are not careful, the inevitable leaning out kills the engine pretty quickly, though on the Grand Nationals and Regals, this usually results in blown head gaskets before the engine completely grenades [though you can certainly cook and crack pistons with the best of 'em if you work at it!]. Maybe, though, that is based on not "maxing it out" during testing and slowly working your way up to your best power and combo of parts...
It seems pretty obvious that simply slapping a "power enhancer" on the top of the engine and expecting a purely software tune to cover everything else is the wrong way to do it.
Realize that I am not saying that THIS particular situation is an example, but I've been pretty surprised by some of the modifications undertaken on this board by people not mechanically inclined or experienced in the level of modifications being done.
It's a learning process, alright...
Mike E
12/5/05, 05:05 PM
#53
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Originally posted by mikeelia@December 5, 2005, 5:38 PM
I agree with this stuff. Though this is more from the "bench racing" side, we from the turbocharged Buicks have known for years that factory fuel delivery systems [regulators, pumps and even pump wiring] are sometimes barely adequate to maintain pressure and flow for the stock setup, much less when we want MORE power.
If you are not careful, the inevitable leaning out kills the engine pretty quickly, though on the Grand Nationals and Regals, this usually results in blown head gaskets before the engine completely grenades [though you can certainly cook and crack pistons with the best of 'em if you work at it!]. Maybe, though, that is based on not "maxing it out" during testing and slowly working your way up to your best power and combo of parts...
It seems pretty obvious that simply slapping a "power enhancer" on the top of the engine and expecting a purely software tune to cover everything else is the wrong way to do it.
Realize that I am not saying that THIS particular situation is an example, but I've been pretty surprised by some of the modifications undertaken on this board by people not mechanically inclined or experienced in the level of modifications being done.
It's a learning process, alright...
Mike E
I agree with this stuff. Though this is more from the "bench racing" side, we from the turbocharged Buicks have known for years that factory fuel delivery systems [regulators, pumps and even pump wiring] are sometimes barely adequate to maintain pressure and flow for the stock setup, much less when we want MORE power.
If you are not careful, the inevitable leaning out kills the engine pretty quickly, though on the Grand Nationals and Regals, this usually results in blown head gaskets before the engine completely grenades [though you can certainly cook and crack pistons with the best of 'em if you work at it!]. Maybe, though, that is based on not "maxing it out" during testing and slowly working your way up to your best power and combo of parts...
It seems pretty obvious that simply slapping a "power enhancer" on the top of the engine and expecting a purely software tune to cover everything else is the wrong way to do it.
Realize that I am not saying that THIS particular situation is an example, but I've been pretty surprised by some of the modifications undertaken on this board by people not mechanically inclined or experienced in the level of modifications being done.
It's a learning process, alright...
Mike E
Smart man onboard!!! Listen to what he is saying guys. He is absolutely correct. Most of the guys putting the SC'ers on their 05 3V's is the 1st major power adder they have ever done to a car. "Experience" comes from the world of hard knocks. Blow a couple of stock motors up and than come back and tell the forum how much horsepower these motors can make day in and day out. Most motors can make 500 rwhp for a while but can they do it for 50 to 100,000 miles.
Scott
12/5/05, 05:46 PM
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I've seen some of your other posts where you have taken the '05 up to 6,800 with no ill effects
So you think, the valvetrain can't handle those RPMs for any period of time. An extra 500rpm is a big deal. The engine is already loosing power at the limiter unless its supercharged. I remember the 5 liter guys who would shift off the limiter when the engine totally pooped out at 5400, it made no sense 10 years ago and it makes no sense today.
General message:
Many of us on this board know what we are doing, even if we haven't hot rodded a thousand cars. Most of us have some experience one way or the other.
12/5/05, 06:55 PM
#56
Originally posted by daniels2005@December 5, 2005, 6:49 PM
So you think, the valvetrain can't handle those RPMs for any period of time. An extra 500rpm is a big deal. The engine is already loosing power at the limiter unless its supercharged. I remember the 5 liter guys who would shift off the limiter when the engine totally pooped out at 5400, it made no sense 10 years ago and it makes no sense today.
General message:
Many of us on this board know what we are doing, even if we haven't hot rodded a thousand cars. Most of us have some experience one way or the other.
So you think, the valvetrain can't handle those RPMs for any period of time. An extra 500rpm is a big deal. The engine is already loosing power at the limiter unless its supercharged. I remember the 5 liter guys who would shift off the limiter when the engine totally pooped out at 5400, it made no sense 10 years ago and it makes no sense today.
General message:
Many of us on this board know what we are doing, even if we haven't hot rodded a thousand cars. Most of us have some experience one way or the other.
Yes, the horsepower is plateauing above 5k and dropping above 6k, but taking it above 6k for shifts sometimes makes sense if you want the next shift to drop you in the meat of the power band. Would I ever take it over 6,500? No way. I'm just trying to learn what these engines are capable of.And yes, we all have some experience, one way or the other. I've been through the vorteched-2V-broken-ring-land-engine-story with my brother and his GT (finally put a built short block from MPH in it). It gets expensive very fast. That said, modding these is a walk in the park compared to the high strung WRX I used to have. Now that was an absolute tuning nightmare.
12/5/05, 10:56 PM
#57
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I blew up a 351 Cleveland due to the distributor spinning 180 degrees once. I drove it for another 6 miles or so after I first noticed it and it slowly lossed compression. # 1 piston got cracked to the top ring, the camshaft had no lobes, dropped a valve or two (kinda forget) The rods and 7 pistons were reusable but the crank was too far gone, it would have needed a .060 over treatment and thats a no-no. :notnice:
Long story short, I have a built 385 Stroker in my garage with a .647 lift, 304/312 duration custom cam and ported 2v heads. It was built for 500hp all motor and could take a 300 shot with ease.
If you want to stay in this hobby you best have the money ready to back it up when things go south.
Now everybody go out and blew them motors and learn from your own experience!
:P
-Dan
Long story short, I have a built 385 Stroker in my garage with a .647 lift, 304/312 duration custom cam and ported 2v heads. It was built for 500hp all motor and could take a 300 shot with ease.
If you want to stay in this hobby you best have the money ready to back it up when things go south.
Now everybody go out and blew them motors and learn from your own experience!
:P-Dan
12/6/05, 09:25 AM
#58
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Our 2005 Mustand that went 9.82 had a BUILT bottom end. We have had several stock engine in the shop with blower that have blown the engine. Seems like 450-475 rwhp is the limit on the stock bottom end
Randy
Sutton High Performance
www.suttonhp.com
Randy
Sutton High Performance
www.suttonhp.com
12/6/05, 09:27 AM
#59
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Randy, has it mainly been because of the rod(s) failing ? Mine blew at 462 rwhp after 2 passes at the track. Mine was rod failure that lead to the piston smashing into the heads (thereby cracking the piston).
Opinions?
-Bryan
Opinions?
-Bryan
12/6/05, 10:38 AM
#60
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[quote=Import-Slaya,December 5, 2005, 7:58 PM]
Actually I don't think anyone would think running it at 6,800rpms for more than a quick visit. Yes, the horsepower is plateauing above 5k and dropping above 6k, but taking it above 6k for shifts sometimes makes sense if you want the next shift to drop you in the meat of the power band. Would I ever take it over 6,500? No way. I'm just trying to learn what these engines are capable of.
I only have experience with our engine in our car. I do know this, to date we have made over 100 passes in the 12's and 20 or so passes in the 11's all with the stock engine having only added long tubes/CAI/N20, and a tune with the rev limiter at 6800 RPMs. Do to there being no 2-step we are forced to launch the car off the rev limiter with a pro tree. We learned through dyno experience that the power band ON OUR CAR stayed flat through 6500 RPM's losing no more than 3-5 hp at the rear wheels from the peak hp reached at 5750 RPM. We also learned that although we were gaining no more power but if we kept the car in 3rd gear this allowed us to knock a little time off of our ET. While spraying nitrous we were forced to shift into 4th before the lights but could get around this by shifting at 6500 instead of 6000 (My wife figured this out in time qualifying at the NMRA world finals). We now have over 12K miles on the car, drive it every day and I have pulled the plugs and they show only signs of a rich condition at times.
In talking with Scott Hoag this summer about development of this engine I learned that there were tests that included idle to 6500RPM plus "run-ups" at Ford that lasted 24/7 for up to weeks looking for the breaking point of the engine due to RPM's.
As for the engine block Al Papitto discussed with me that the factory aluminum block is good to upwards of 600rwhp and after that the factory iron block (Windsor) could support upwards of 1000rwhp.
Are the engines that I as well as others have (Mike Bowen, Justin Bircham's original N20 or Procharger only, Blazing Saddles, MikeM, and such) just flukes that have withstood power adders without fail or is it a few engines that have failed under short term power adders the fluke? I don't believe there is a hard and fast rule or a horsepower range for breakage, only the general assumption that Stock Sucks and if you modify it in any way the likelyhood that a failure will happen increases. Don't mess around, if you add power like N20/Turbo/SC to a non-built short block then expect to break the engine at some point, you can build before or after this happens. Just my observations, no mechanical expert here, only a flight nurse.
Actually I don't think anyone would think running it at 6,800rpms for more than a quick visit.
Yes, the horsepower is plateauing above 5k and dropping above 6k, but taking it above 6k for shifts sometimes makes sense if you want the next shift to drop you in the meat of the power band. Would I ever take it over 6,500? No way. I'm just trying to learn what these engines are capable of.I only have experience with our engine in our car. I do know this, to date we have made over 100 passes in the 12's and 20 or so passes in the 11's all with the stock engine having only added long tubes/CAI/N20, and a tune with the rev limiter at 6800 RPMs. Do to there being no 2-step we are forced to launch the car off the rev limiter with a pro tree. We learned through dyno experience that the power band ON OUR CAR stayed flat through 6500 RPM's losing no more than 3-5 hp at the rear wheels from the peak hp reached at 5750 RPM. We also learned that although we were gaining no more power but if we kept the car in 3rd gear this allowed us to knock a little time off of our ET. While spraying nitrous we were forced to shift into 4th before the lights but could get around this by shifting at 6500 instead of 6000 (My wife figured this out in time qualifying at the NMRA world finals). We now have over 12K miles on the car, drive it every day and I have pulled the plugs and they show only signs of a rich condition at times.
In talking with Scott Hoag this summer about development of this engine I learned that there were tests that included idle to 6500RPM plus "run-ups" at Ford that lasted 24/7 for up to weeks looking for the breaking point of the engine due to RPM's.
As for the engine block Al Papitto discussed with me that the factory aluminum block is good to upwards of 600rwhp and after that the factory iron block (Windsor) could support upwards of 1000rwhp.
Are the engines that I as well as others have (Mike Bowen, Justin Bircham's original N20 or Procharger only, Blazing Saddles, MikeM, and such) just flukes that have withstood power adders without fail or is it a few engines that have failed under short term power adders the fluke? I don't believe there is a hard and fast rule or a horsepower range for breakage, only the general assumption that Stock Sucks and if you modify it in any way the likelyhood that a failure will happen increases. Don't mess around, if you add power like N20/Turbo/SC to a non-built short block then expect to break the engine at some point, you can build before or after this happens. Just my observations, no mechanical expert here, only a flight nurse.