daniels2005

There is nothing inherently wrong with an aluminum block per se, they are used in all exotic cars and even standard Vettes, Ford GT, etc...

I also wouldn't push these motors over 400hp if the only tuner in town is clueless, lets you run the motor over factory redline, and runs the car lean, melts spark plugs....... I do plan on pushing the motor over 470rwhp because my local tuner doesn't build grenades.

MSP

Thats what I'm trying to say! Whats going on here? I have seen several 2005 GT's over 500RWHP... I think this boils down to the tuners themselves.. I think this is a matter of guys running the rpms up in this motor to make more power by any means, even if it means tacking out at 6400+ RPM... The bottom line is, you should be making the power below redline, instead of distorting the motor at levels the internals obviously are not designed for.. Distortion is greater the higher the rpm.. If you can limit the rpm, you can limit distortion..

70MACH1OWNER

MSP,
Not sure what guys you are talking about at 500 rwhp? Maybe you mean 03 and 04 Cobras. They come from the factory with all forged components. Those motors can handle that kind of power. Bet they are NOT 05 3V stock motors. No way they will take that for long!!
Scott

MSP

Like alot of tuners say, is they prefer to use the race fuel becuase of the irregularities involved with pump gas.... Most likley the people I am referring to are using race fuel and not pump gas.. Where as the cars that have had problems are using pump gas... There is a 2005 GT running 9's, I'm quite sure you have heard of the car.. I cant remember who owned it, but its in a thread around here somewhere.. But its running all stock internals..

So could these be issue's which are directly related to risk which involve the type of fuel used?

I hate to see the GT's motor taking a beating like this..

Here it is..

http://www.suttonhp.com/cc/details.asp?MUSTANG_ID=5

TexaStang

Pretty much unrelated, but here is a 2.5L probe engine that had a bit too much boost.

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701176545

MSP

You gotta post the link Tejas!

70MACH1OWNER

MSP,
Race gas is definitely the best to run. In fact back when I blew my 96 cobra I was supposed to be running 100 octane min. But I could not get it at that time of year and actually called Kennebell and asked him what I should do because I was going to the track that week. I was told to run 93 octane with 2 cans of 104 octane boost. Well, the rest is history. It detonated and crushed 5 pistons and broke 2 rods all in 12 seconds. At 4 bucks a gallon I think the money would be better spent on forged internals that can take a little more abuse running 93 octane. Don't get me wrong. My blood is Ford blue and I have had mustangs for 30 years but I just hate to see guys put blowers on these motors with the hopes of putting out big numbers and the motors only lasting a couple of weeks. If you do a search on the web you will will find that these stock mod motors have been blowing up for years under forced induction and the pistons and rods are always to blame. High octane and a great tune can't fix inherent weakness in stock parts.
Scott

Mongoose

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say here. No it is not the procharger it is the powdered metal connecting rods. A year ago i said I did not think they would take the pressure and they did not. Six pounds seems to be the linit.
Looks like the shop ows the customer a motor.

dustindu4

I'm pretty sure the MM&FF on the Sutton car said it had a Cobra lower end

70MACH1OWNER

I agree with Dustin. No where does it say that the Sutton car is a stock 3V motor making 500 rwhp. It does say that they made 40 one off parts for this car to make it happen. If you look thru there engine section everything is an upgrade this and upgrade that to make big power. If you want big power than you need to build it for big power.

MSP

Got ya!! So you guys think a Turbo is better, or should they just stick to nitrous?

daniels2005

I totally agree with you. There are also fuel delivery issues with some of these kits. If you aren't watching the AF ratio after installation and the car is running a canned tune, it appears that you are taking a tremendous risk of frying the engine.

I'm also going to install one of the new radiators when I install the SC, I have no confidence that the lawnmower radiator can keep things in check once I whip on the car at normal running temp.

70MACH1OWNER

Turbo, Nitros, or SCer's makes no difference as far as I am concerned. Keep any power adders to the mild side on a stock motor. All of the above can put a big hurt'n on a stock motor. Keep it down to about 400 to no more than 450 crank horsepower and I believe with a good tune and good gas you can have fun for a long time. Much over this zone and I think you will experience alot of down time. Just my 2 cents.

ski

Windsor block is good up to approx. 600 hp, and the cast rods up to 400 hp according to this informative article:
http://mustangandfords.com/techarticles/mufp_0509_swap/

sranger

I have said it before and I will say it again, if you add 100+hp to a stock short block it can break....Period.....

Most people do not realize how dangerious a tune itself can be. In many ways it is worse on the engine than a burnout or a few strip runs. It can go boom if the tuner makes one little oopse or a partially blocked fuel line makes the engine suddenly go lean, or there is a partial defect in a rod/piston or skirt, a bearing is not seated properly, loose main cap, etc....

I chose my SC and my tuner VERY carfully. The Saleen SC seemed like the one least likely to go boom ( I know it could however ) because Saleen has to warrantee the car for 36K on the stock short block. If their crappy tune can go 36k, a good tune should easly make 50-75k. In my opinion, if Saleen would have added more than 4psi boost if they thought it would take it....

As for the block, it can certianly take over 500hp. ( A block gurdle would be a good idea in a lower build however. ) Again, Saleen has a extream model with the same S/C making more boost and over 500hp. They went with forged internals of course. And again, they offer a 36/36 warrantee...

I think that part of the problem is that these cars are harder to tune than the previous modulars. If a tuner tries to do it the same way they did the 04, there might be trouble. The fuel/air is simply not very forgiving.

It is my guess ( I said guess ) that the pistons are the weak link.
The rods look pretty pretty strong to me. They are "forged" powder metal. It takes more pressure to forge a powder metal that it does to forge T6. However, it is more likely to have a manufacturing defect. Several high hp cars use powder metal rods to over 400hp.

I personally think piston slap at higher RPM is the main go boom reason. The top ring is simply too close to the top of the piston. Not a good design for a power adder ( probably an EPA reason ) I think the skirt breaks off first and the rest goes as a result. I would not recomend a tuner upping the rev limit on these engines. ( Again, I am guessing so don't fly off the handle on me... )

And yes, I may have to eat my words if mine goes boom, but that is the chance you take.... Life is too short to worry so much....

dustindu4

That's a great article, thanks for sharing.

best quote in there "Powdered-metal connecting rods work quite well in street applications, but they get shaky when we start hammering on them with nitrous or supercharging. Here's the powdered-metal connecting rod from a DOHC engine. Note its long, lean design with a cracked cap. Powdered-metal rods are cheaper to make and weigh less than their forged ancestors. These rods are good for up to 400 hp. We suggest aftermarket rods for anything higher."

I guess I wasn't crazy when I said above 400 HP is pushing it

sranger

I thought this was a relevant quote of the specs on the Base Saleen Supercharged 05/06 with stock internals....

"ENGINE

Type 4.6L, 3V, SOHC V-8

Bore and Stroke 3.55 x 3.54 in.

Displacement 4.6 liters, 281 cu in.

Accessory Pulleys Saleen Underdrive Pulleys

Exhaust System Saleen Stainless, 2.5 in. Variable Exhaust

Horsepower 435 bhp @ 5800 RPM

Torque 425 lb-ft @ 4000 RPM

Fuel Premium Unleaded 91 Octane

Saleen Intercooled Supercharger Saleen Series VI Integrated TwinScrew Supercharger With Two-Stage Water-To-Air Intercooler System; Cast 356-T6 aluminum alloy constructions "


I am guessing that this hp rating is close to the flywheel limit of these stock internals...

400+rwhp just does not seem like a good idea....

os121

sranger, do you mean a tune on a N/A car is dangerous ? Or do you mean on a super-charged car ? Just curious. And .. the reference to being worse on the engine than a burnout or runs on the strip .. do you mean if someone takes a stock car off the lot, and lets the tires rip, or if they take a few trips down the strip .. are they risking the kind of carnage shown in this post ?? I hope Ford built it stronger than that

Mongoose

Are you telling us this is your car or what? If it is yours do you run the h--- out of it like the rest of us or just kitty foot around. What is your 1/4 time? Thanks

sranger

Clerification...

First, as is stated before, the numbers posted are from the Saleen web site. It shows there specs for their SC model with the stock internals...

I have not even got my SC kit yet... ( waiting impatiently )

The point I was trying to make about a tune is that it is easy to over rev the engine on a dyno if your tuner is not paying attention. This is especially true if they are tinkering with the rev limiter. It is also true that once the tuner starts the process, it is likely that the F/A ratio, timing will be off during much of the tuning process. In other words the engine is being stressed, but is not yet tuned. This is very much the case when you are adding power adders like SC or nitrous. However, even a simple CAI can really throw the 05 out of wack. Also, there is not as much air moving through the car on the dyno as there is while actually driving it. So heat build up on repetitive pulls must also be watched carfully.

Someone having some fun with a car is NOT tinkering with the fule/air, timing, rev limit, etc, while they are playing. That is why I think the dyno pulls are more likely to go boom...

Now a good tuner is of course watching all of the info and will shut it down if they see somthing moving in the wrong direction and also use a cooling fan between runs to avoid heat build up. My intent was to point out that a distracted or incompetent tuner can do a lot of damage during the tuning process it self...

And for your driving habit question, I am at an age where I probably would not thrash a car as much a younger person might. But I still love a run down the strip and a burn out or two...