Yea, I realize that the 2 extremes of use I have planned are basically at the opposite ends of the spectrum and that there really is no way to build a chassis that will work well in both situations, but I do have some ideas in my head to try to cope with this and, the 07 may get a break from the drag racing by me getting the 84 running again. Also, not having the attitude of having to be the best at either will help me get where I want to be, since all I out to do is have fun, not win national championships!! Right now, I'd be happy to break into the 13's on the strip, and to just be out on aroad course would bo ok with me, not winning races!!! yes, I said 13's, I've only been down the track about 10 times ever, plus, I'm not exactly light-weight so I kinda got about 75-100 lbs on most guys. Btw, thanks for that link, but for right now, I'm gonna stay with the co.'s that I'm looking at, don't need any more to add to the confusion!!LOL

 

Wow!! I wish.....

 

[quote=hiznherponies;806384]Darth, what are you calling the "forward control arms" and what did they notch? Just trying to see in my head and on my car, what all you're talking about. I work at the factory building these things and want to know what everyone is going thru so I can avoid all of the mistakes that I can!! quote]

The two metal arms that connect to the forward wheels--are these also called the A-arms? And to the other question, it was definitely cut, the factory holes didn't work. I cut 1/2 coil off the rears and 1 coil off the fronts, sounds like some guys are only doing rears, which would not require as much work. And I do have an adjustable panhard. Thanks for the insight guys, and in closing I would ike to say the springs never really caused me any issue...it was the dissasembling, reassembling, aligning, pulling and tugging on various parts of my baby, and the unwelcome clunk of a sturt tower cap hitting the floor that caused me problems.

-Darth

 

True, but the coil is still counted as an active coil for the purpose of the calculation.

I think what you are refering to is dynamic rate change.

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/spring.shtml

For those who want to get more into suspensions.

 

I think if you crawl under your car and look at the way the top coil is seating you will find that its not standing on the edge of the end of the cut. if it was i would agree with you. You have cut off the dead end of the coil, but a portion of the so called live end that remains will become dead. But if you want to calculate it that way, knock yourself out. You are misleading youself.

 

I agree, if you remove the top dead coil (the coil that comes in contact with the upper spring perch) then the next coil below it, which was originally a live coil, comes in contact with the spring perch, becoming the "new" dead coil. This means there is one less active coil.

 

Here's a really good article about cutting springs the right way

 

Just curious....which Steeda Springs did you put in your car that you fine to firm for daily driving ?
Ultra Lites ?
Sport ?
Competition ?

 

Agreed, but exactly what portion of the spring that has been converted from a closed end to an open end and comes in contact with the flat spring seat is hard to tell over the internet.

Since the springs seem to be a constant pitch, probably not much more than 1/3 to 1/2 coil. Would you agree?

It would be interesting for somebody that has cut their springs to look and see.

Which gets back to the reason I stated why I'm not in favor of cutting the rear springs on the Mustang, how the cut spring contacts the seat.

 

One thing we seem to completely agree on its not a good solution to cut coils for several reasons. But for some people thats the only way ... its good enough.

I would also agree that a good assumption would be that 1/2 a turn plus or minus of the cut coil end will lay flat on the seat when loaded up. Only way to tell for sure is to see one on a car that has cut coils and the car is sitting on the wheels. Its not easy to calculate because the problem is compounded by the off set load caused by not having a complete dead coil to uniformly support the spring. This puts a moment on the coil distorting its longitudinal symmetry.

 

Interesting article. But a bike has adjustable coil overs (rear) so ride height can be compensated by spring seat adjustment and the biker still gets full bounce travel with the higher rate w/o hitting the stops, as opposed to a car modification where you lose an inch of travel and don't get enough additional rate to compensate.

The modification to the cut coil makes sense, but the only problem I see with the solution applied to a car w/o coil overs is once you heat that spring steel to cherry red and bend it, that area of the spring has lost its temper (no not getting mad) and tensile strength. That little section at the bend is now weaker than the rest of the coils and it sees all the load in the spring. The whole spring needs to be normalized and reheatreated.

 

If I had had a way to flatten and reshape the last coil w/o resorting to heating w/ a torch, I would've. I have seen how the springs sit in there, cut and uncut, and I do worry that its not optimised and possibly distorting under loads (not just at rest), it was the only way to experiment and see if I like it raked or not. I'm thinking a little rake would be ok, but I do like the stance most of the Grand-Am stangs have (level, or closer to it). Definately better than the stock 4x4 look. These pics demonstrate the stock look, I can't find the pics I took right after I cut the rear springs, guess I'll have to take some tomorrow, after I take out the 100 lbs. of sand in the trunk. Yea, I live in the great frozen North.

 

One interesting thing I notice with my unmolested springs is when driving by a storefront glass window and observing my reflection (yes I know, how vain) the car looks pretty darn level with my 200 lbs sitting in it.

The rocker panels (car empty) only measure 1/4" difference in height. Must be nearly an inch between the F&R wheel wells.

A 100 lb sand bag in the rear must pull the rear down. Hey, maybe a cheaper and better solution to coil cutting is to toss two 100 lb sand bags in the trunk. Improves the weight distribution too ...

 

LOL!!! Yea, I guess the sand would do that, and be cheaper and easier (side benefit: more traction)!! I've still got you by about 60 lbs or so, and are you real sure it was level, most people say its raked a bit. I measured mine before and after the drop, and I dropped it only about 3/4" or so (driveway is not perfectly level), not sure if I want to go too much lower. The sand is only in there for the winter, btw, to help in traction and if I do get it stuck, I could use the sand under the tires.

 

It's also interesting to see how the wheel alignment can change when a car has a 200 lbs driver behind the wheel.

 

That's why your alignment should be done with with the driver on board and a half a tank of gas or more, unless you are into radio control.

 

Well, here's some pictures of it that I took today, sorry there is a very slight slant to my driveway. These are both w/ and w/o the sand in the trunk!! First 2 are w/ the weight, next 2 no weight, last is the stock front ride height.

 

It appears that the stock uncut rear springs do not have closed ends. In a quest to find out what implications of closed ends vs open ends, I found in most sources on the web the same definition for closed ends:
here is one example reference (look under "Glossary of Spring Terminology") and another.

On my '98, I had Eibach Pro Kits and the 2 bottom coils on the rear springs
touched when unloaded and stacked together solid when on the car under load, so they definitely had closed ends on the bottom. The tops on the Eibachs were open ends.

On the 05-06 stock rear springs, the top coils do not touch the adjacent coil. The pitch is reduced and the diameter of the last coil is smaller however. But even fully compressed the top coil would not touch any other coils. The top coil would be compressed down within the inner diameter of the larger diameter 2nd coil. So are they "semi-closed" or just "open" ends?

The top rear spring perches on the S197 are wide and flat at the top of the spring cup so having a larger diameter top coil against the seat shouldn't cause any problems. If it did, I would have heard the springs making noise as they moved around on the perch as the suspension travels up and down.

 

If the last coil is wound so as to form a flat end for the spring its closed. Looking at the stock spring photo you posted, if you did a complete 1 coil cut, that spring end becomes open. However that open end is going to try and lay down as load is applied, the spring end is also going to tilt because its not supported by a complete closed end, making that open coil lay down even more, with the part that lays down becoming inactive (it can't deflect any more). When using the spring formula and applying N the number of active coils, an engineer has to account for how the open end is actually supported. It could be flat like you described or with a spiral ramp. If you could the load the spring with an open end, right at the very tip of that end, that whole coil is active as long at the load does not start to distribute along the coil. If it were to start laying down on the spring seat that part of the coil is no longer active.

 

I have never seen or heard of an alignment shop that does the alignment with the driver on board. Please elaborate.