The Reverend

Top Gear hates on the Mustang suspension. The live axle and all the rest. SCCA hates on the Mustang, except for in a dead F Stock class with only Mustangs. Civics, Miatas, and Minis our perform our beloved car.

Can a Mustang turn? Can it be modified to turn? I don't think it is size, power, or gearing that is holding it back. I think it is weight, suspension, and drivers. The same factors for drag racing, I might add. So what is there to do? Too often I have considered adding suspension parts over time to improve the handling characteristic of the Mustang. This is the way I proceeded with my engine modifications. And I saw the horsepower increase incrementally.

But with suspension, I think it is the least common denominator, and the sum of its parts that will make a difference. The suspension is only good as its WEAKEST link. So throwing parts at it over time won't improve it until it can all work together as a unit. I read the articles http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=447906 . But I want more advice on the BIG picture of what to upgrade, so that I can save up for that goal instead of a supercharger. I want the best handling street driven mustang, instead of the fastest 1/4 mile. I want BIG STIG to drive it around a test track and compete with sports cars costing twice as much. Yes, I know it won't compete with a vette, exige, or porsche, but can't we get it close?

I am looking at a $3k budget (tax refund ftw) without tires and rims. Everyone knows you need Dunlop Star Spec or Hoosier A6 tires and light weight rims to turn properly. And they can cost $600 - $1200 for tires and the same for good light weight rims. Also I wont to limit this to what fits under stock 17" tires. I personally need them for long distance driving for the economy of it all and you never know how 18" rims will line up profile wise.

JCC07

Motortrend did a comparison awhile back of a Shelby GT and a Roush "Stage 2". As you may be aware, the Shelby is equipped with the Ford Racing Handling Pack and the Roush "Stage 2" gets a special Roush suspension (front and rear springs, front and rear shocks & struts, front and rear stabilizer bars).

For your information, the difference between the "Stage 2" and the "Stage 3" Roush Mustangs is that the "Stage 3" has a Roush supercharger, and a slightly different suspension setup to compensate for the added power. For a basic (unsupercharged 'Stang) you'd want to consider the "Stage 2" suspension. It costs about $1400.00 for the whole system but you may be able to find a discount on the individual components.

Anyway, the handling figures they got on the Roush are pretty impressive...not as good as the high end Porsches or the BMW M3, but better than the Porsche Boxter and the BMW 3-5 series. Of course, this is my own comparison between the numbers from Motortrend's test and the numbers Road & Track prints up once a month in their magazine.

The Shelby GT got better numbers, but the Motortrend reviewer thought the Shelby was awfully stiff; apparently the Ford Racing Handling Pack loses a lot of the driving comfort. Conversely, the Roush did not do quite as well, but it still managed to maintain the same stock cushy ride. I'm leaning towards the Roush setup because I think it would be a good compromise. At the same time, I'd be very interested in more real-world experiences.

The only other problem with the Mustang is the lack of IRS. No matter what, the car is still going to do the hula on a bumpy road. Unless I'm wrong, I don't think there's any way to eliminate or lessen this.

Rebel73

How about a Watts-link ?

SlamMan02

Ehh Jeremy Clarkson is a joke...He LOVES to talk trash about American made products However-- He does give the Roush S3 his approval-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igruGzq4q0w

sam strano

Aw come on now Reverend... How many classes do you think a car should be able to win in? I don't think 2 is bad at all. For SCCA hating Mustangs (or pony-cars in general) there are two classed that they pretty much rule. In 7 years I've won 5 National Championships in those two classes in solid axle pony-cars. 3 in Camaro's and 2 in Mustangs. I don't know what your deal is in thinking SCCA is so against you. A look at the results will show you this isn't true.

Back on topic: The FR3 suspension is ok, but isn't perfect and the dampers suck. Which is why they get changed on the cars I setup. And not only do you gain the ability to tune the car on the handling side more to your liking, but the ride improves as well. Further I feel there are better springs than the Eibach's that come with the kit (Pro-kits). The bars are not at all bad.

If you want to make a Mustang turn, why not ask someone who does it, like me? There even some video's of me in the Shelby both in and out of car showing it's not a myth. And what's more because that car is in F-stock where things are pretty limited I can't even do the things I'd do in ESP that would make the car even better (yet I'm already running times damned close to ESP cars).

As for the Roush vs. the FR3... the difference there again is mainly the dampers. See my statement above about how changing the Ford Racing dampers out IMPROVES the ride (and the handling too).

Yes a Mustang can turn. What makes a car work or not is how the pieces fit together for your intended goal... and what pieces we change. What you pick depends on what you want from the car. Making a car "handle" is more than seeing what it'll pull on a skidpad, it's also about how it drives, how stable it is, how much fun it is. I can tell you the platform for the S197 is very, very good. And despite having a solid rear axle, that's not as bit a problem as many think. The issue is most have junk shocks, and are limiting themselves to the inherent design flaws of the Panhard bar too.

You want one of these to "turn"? Start with what you dislike about how the car acts or reacts. That's how I setup cars, it's how I pick and recommend parts. You don't go to your doctor asking for him to cure you without some background information about what's ailing you, right? Well, I can't give you a pill to cure the ills the car has (or you feel it has) without some detail.

70MACH1OWNER

So Sam what dampers do you run or suggest for us guys? And I am not racing my car either. Just all round driving fun.

The Reverend

He runs Konis, and sells them for $749. I am considering these over the D-Specs. http://www.stranoparts.com/searchbymodel.php?ModelID=5

The challenges I face while autocrossing are rear suspension bottoming out on transitional sections, I don't like how it feels midcorner, and the turn in is not sharp. Not suspension related: Throttle on oversteer during sweepers, too large of a turning radius around pivot cones, and wheel hop.

RadBOSS

Reduce the front toe or even go slightly negative and you should get lots of turn in response.

I was wanting the Koni's or Bilstien's for mine, but it took so long for either to get into the market I settled for the D-SPec's. I am reasonably happy with them for now.

watts linkage suggestion - not much help for turn in, but certainly provides cornering stability by controlling rear axle position

pivot cones - learn how to get the car loose as you approach the cone to get the car pointed for the exit and oversteer under throttle to scrub off that entry speed.

GRAYPNY

Can you guys that have your font size set on 1 enlarge it for us older members?

Greywolf

in internet explorer there is a zoom icon in the bottom right hand corner click it and you can read the small print

sam strano

Being very to the point I'd really need to know the rest of the setup before I could even start to recommend what/how to change the car for sure.

I can tell you that what most call "bottoming out" is, but it's not uncommon for all spring to get on the rear bumpstops. What happens is damping effects how hard, often and fast you hit 'em. Depending on those factors the spike in wheel rate can really upset the car. And in fact that's one reason I like the Koni's better then D-specs (though not the only reason). I felt much more stuck with D-specs. Too soft and the car would become very abrupt when it hit the stops. Too stiff and it was just nervous. I found the setting that worked best for me, but couldn't run anything else if I wanted to make the car react differently, like to make the rotate faster or slower. The Koni's allow me a useful range of damping where I can change how the back of the car reacts without making it way to mushy or to sudden.

Basically better dampers and a better knowledge of setting them up will help your transient feel, initial rotation of the car and the response... which is a good bit of what you don't like. The wheelhop isn't something the shocks are likely to make go away, but they might well make it better. I know my GT hops less than the GT I first started autoxing on D-specs.

Thottle on oversteer? Well that's got to do with tires, and your right foot. The car has power, and the less grippy the tires, the easier it is to spin them which results in power on oversteer. You want a bit because it can help the car turn. But not much, and unlike a lot of little cars, you need to have throttle control. You never slap the gas, you "smooosh" the gas pedal. It's not a switch, it's a ****, use it like a ****. If you do, as you get to oversteer you can modulate the throttle and keep the car inline. Now I can't see you drive, but you can see me in various video's. You'll see the car does indeed move the tail, but you can also see/hear that I never just pound the gas to the floor. Maybe you don't either, I don't know.

I know it's hard to swallow there is a tangible difference between them, but anyone who's been on both like I have can confirm it.

Clearly you can see I really, really prefer Koni's over D-specs. I also prefer them over Bilstein's. And here's why: Bilstein's do cost a bit less, and are excellent shocks in terms of build. But they offer the owner no ability to tune the ride, response and/or feel of the car. They are not valved with lowering springs in mind being HD's. And even if they were, so are other shocks like the FRPP dampers that come on the Shelby GT, which we promptly replaced with first D-specs and later Koni's. The price difference between Bilstein and Koni isn't very big anyway.