Spin? Did I hear someone say spin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6OVg-9bd_c I've also got some video I need to edit of an '06 S197 with the complete Griggs setup front/rear, BBR heads/cams (380rwhp per the owner), cage, etc... He treated me like a Civic.

Thanks for all the info. We are all heading for "The Incremental Death of a Passenger Car." Mod by mod we tweak things that make incremental changes to the ride and comfort--easy for us to deal with, but give a ride to someone who hasn't been in the car since stock... I may just have to order the rod/rod LCA's, now.


For your toe measurement, if I read correctly you went from 3/16 toe-in to 5/16 to-in after going from +0.9* to -2.6* camber? Two things don't add up, which you've already hinted at.

• Adding negative camber should yield toe-out with our suspension geometry.
• The full adjustment range of the MM camber plates is only 1.6* total from end to end. If the +0.9* initial full outboard reading were correct, you should only have been able to hit -0.7* dumped fully in.

I wouldn't necessarily doubt *your* measurement numbers--the "real" numbers from the Hunter machine are only as good as the tech who set it up, and the calibration of the entire setup. There's a reason why many track junkies still trust strings over the Hunter machines. We tend to be more picky than most. I wouldn't trust any of my local alignment shops or their techs to give me accurate measurements. Based on your numbers, two things don't add up, which makes me doubt the accuracy of the Hunter readings.

 

Yeah, I had a caged S197 (AI spec build, stock motor with CAI and headers) that I played with for almost a whole lap... With comp tires, about 400lbs less weight, and coilovers, he kept walking on me every corner. I could hang in the straights, and with a slightly taller gear, I could pull on him slightly on exit, but he was murdering me in the braking zone and in the turn-in...


At least they're not horribly expensive, and it's an easy enough swap to do... Nicest thing is not having to have the car at ride-height when torquing the LCA mount bolts... No bushings to preload!


I re-read my post, and yes, I did forget to add the "-" sign to the 0.9*... Street is nearly a degree negative, and adding the -1.6 to that drops the track setting to -2.5*. I agree whole-heartedly about the toe measurement, though. I was honestly anticipating gaining toe-out with the camber drop, and was as surprised as everybody else with the measurements we came up with... I have almost a month before my next track session, and I need to spend some quality time with the string, and get this settled, one way or another. There may be an issue with the rack, or the sensor head setup, but the initial numbers matched what I came up with pretty closely. I'm probably going to just wind up ordering some toe-plates from Longacre next week, since that way I don't need to string the car. I couldn't do squat at the track, since I wound up setting up in the paddock on a nice, grassy area with both pitch and roll angles. Good drainage, though!

Honestly, the toe HAS to change the other way, that's just simple physics. Exactly how much is the burning question. Assuming that the differential change was correct, and that there is a 2/16" change with the camber drop, then that would put the toe at around 1/16" in, which sounds pretty good for a tuning baseline for higher-speed tracks. I've never played with it, but on shorter tracks I'd like to try a little toe-out for quicker turn-in. I'm still a little tight out, though, and I'm sure that the toe won't help that.

 

This guy played with me. I did my best in the climbing esses, but once we hit the straights, he walked me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkosdY63N3E (pic of him attached, and a gratuitous one of me, too. )


Absolutely. Something is fishy with their measurements. I'm embarrassed to say I STILL haven't had a chance to remeasure my toe. I was at about 1/8" toe-out with -2.25* camber. Lately, I've found that -2.75* is the sweet spot for overall "feel" and tire wear patterns (pyrometer readings to come...), which would translate to a little more toe-out (the mystery amount right now ). Honestly, it does feel a little twitchy on the straights, but obviously not enough for me to rush to change it. Turn-in is great, though, as you would imagine.

 

Which springs are you running Import-Slaya?

 

I think he's got some time to think about it now....

 

????

 

Oh $hit I just burst out laughing! Focker.

jymontoya--the picture in my avatar is self-explanatory (look a few threads down in this subforum for the full story).

I had been running the Eibach prokit springs, Tokico D-specs, and FRPP (Eibach) swaybars. All of which are sitting in boxes in the garage right now. I'm toying with doing the Ground Control coilover conversion on my D-specs just for the variety of spring rates it opens up, but I'll probably just toss everything back on, as I was very happy with the setup.

 

LOL!! That was cold, man.... Bloody hilarious, too! I'm glad Slaya's got a good attitude about the whole thing!

 

I actually re-read this whole thread yesterday and gave that GC Coilover setup a good look, looks like solid stuff. Also took a look at KW's clubsport package for S197s as well...yum!

I'll probably be taking a break from track days for a while to save some $$, but I will probably revise my setup before returning

 

There is no shortage of options. H&R has both Street and RSS coil-overs (non-adjustable dampers both). KW has Variant 1 (not adjustable damper) and Variant 3 (split DA dampers), and Clubsport application as well (also split DA, but with more agressive valving and spring rates). What's more is AST Suspension from Holland has some really trick dampers on the way for the car as well.

I carry all of the above brands. I no longer deal with Ground Control for their conversion parts. They work well decently enough, but are a nightmare to deal with. And they convert standard type dampers over. Of those the Koni's are single adjustable for rebound, D-specs are linked doubles and not nearly the damper the Koni's are, Bilstein's are not adjustable.

If you want split double adjustables where the compression and rebound are no linked, want mono-tube (didn't say it, but you might prefer those), and you want no reservoirs you pretty much limit yourself to the KW stuff at this time.

 

Sam--can you post more info/specs/pricing on the AST stuff when it becomes available? I haven't heard of them yet.

Thanks!

 

I'll gather up some info on them... They aren't toys, these are serious mono-tube dampers in the higher end of things. In fact if you were to look at various Moton's you'd find the exact same design that AST uses. And AST has had the design for 10 years, Moton hasn't been around that long.

Testing is on going so there are some details that haven't been finalized like costs and exact setups.

But here are some details to help with curiosity. Remember these are tentitive plans and may change when the production stuff is ready:

--We're looking at a inverted dampers front and rear for less unsprung weight. The struts are planned to be steel, the rear shocks aluminum bodied (less weight period).

--AST uses synthetic damping fluid which helps against shock fade and makes the damping more consistent at varying temperatures (remember shocks make heat).

--Shocks will use spherical bearings instead of rubber bushings

--Internally they use teflon lines bearings for extremely low stiction in the damper

--Plans include a 4100 series rebound adjustable setup, and a 4200 series split double adjustable setup (separate compression and rebound adjustments). TBD whether they will use a remote reservior with a hose, or a piggy backed bottle on the Double's that will depend on testing when the 4100 testing is done and what fits the best and is easiest to fit.

--Initial plans are for Adjustable height coil-over front, wieght jacker rear setups. Possibly a kit to convert the rears to actual coil-overs as well if the shock mounting point is deemed strong enough. But I frankly don't see the need. Weight jacker rears work great and are easier to change springs on if you wish.

We've used these on a few cars (they are only available for a few cars so far). Mostly BMW's, but they've garnered a good following and very happy customers. AST's can be rebuilt and revalved here in the US by the importer Vorshlag Motorsports, whom I'm a dealer for (hence the information I have). I can't add a lot more to this as I haven't had a set on a Mustang myself. I can tell you on the M3 I did with them they were superior to the Bilstien PSS9 kit we had before, and IMHO every bit as composed and capable as another customer's M3 on Triple Motons.

 

Forgot to add one thing. The testing is being done for the 4100's now on a car that previously had stock springs (an '05 or '06 GT) and D-specs. They put 550/275's on the car with the AST's and the car is reported to ride better, as in less harsh. It's stiff no doubt as that's a good bit of rate, but not as much as what some kits like the H&R RSS's use. But I think that's pretty telling since the stock rates are about 150/130 or so.

Here's a short video about AST, fwiw: http://www.ast-suspension.com/movie.asp

 

Good Info Guys!!

 

Cool video.

What are you guys thinking about pricing for a Single-adjustable coilover system vs. a double-adjustable system?

Taken a look at the Sachs dampers used by the FR500s cars at all? Those are pretty pricy. eek.

 

A little far out to be quoting pricing. Hoping for singles to be in around KW Variant 3 -> KW Clubsport levels. Doubles would be more, probably around $3-3.5k as they are more "like" in terms of pricing KW Motorsport dampers than the Clubsports. In fact AST and Motons are eerily similar.

 

It looks like Koni has some 2800 series monotube dampers for 05+ mustangs, but also pricey.

Front
817 1494
KONI online Price: $3,509.00 per pair

Rear
2812LB 1240
KONI online Price: $2,178.00 per pair

 

They have for a while for the Grand-Am Koni Challenge Series. There is no shortage of available super high-tech dampers out there between the Sachs, the coming AST's, the KW's, the Eibach set....

 

I thought the FR500C's came with Multimatic dampers? Did Koni make their own replacements since they sponsor the series?

Looking forward to the AST set to become available, they seem to be reasonably priced.

 

The Mustang Challenge cars have I think Sachs dampers. The others have Dynamic (part of Multimatic) 3-ways... I think you know, but others might not the shocks the Shelby GT's aren't in any way, shape, or form those..