SoundGuyDave

If so, which ones? I'm running the BMR progressives, which are great on the street, but maybe not so much on the track...






Tires are Nitto 555's (255/45-18 and 285/40-18), on very heavy rims, and the usual suspension bits are in place (D-Specs, BMR bars, rear arms, Steeda bumpsteer, control arm bushings, rad support crossmember), with a "race weight" of 3719, full fuel and driver.

06GT

I was thinking the same thing myself...although I'm having a hard time finding spring rate info on full kits for our cars. Usually the suppliers have individual order spring rate information, but not for kits.

The car definitely has some brake dive that I'd like to eliminate w/ a stiffer front spring set.

I'd like to know wha the FRPP spring rates are F/R so I have a baseline, then where do we find data on other spring kits?
I heard H&R Race Springs were good, but very harsh...I'm trying to figure out if I could tolerate them on the street if I got D-Specs and adjusted them to full-soft for daily driving.

SoundGuyDave

How is your anti-squat set up? I've got right around 100%, and have very little brake dive. I'll have to look into the H&R setup, and the harshness doesn't really bother me. It seems like every time I swing a wrench on the car, it becomes a little more of a track toy, and less streetable... The D-Spec helps, but remember that the dampers only control the time in which the springs take to compress as dictated by the spring rate. A 900lb spring will still compress very little over a bump, regardless of the damper settings. A sudden transient (bump or pothole) with high-rate springs will still jar the car pretty hard, even with the shocks set to full soft. Running soft (underdamping) the springs will only lead to a low-level oscillation, where the front of the car will bob up and down after the jounce/rebound event.

I'm really kind of curious about the KW coilover rig, it looks pretty sexy, but I want to avoid external reservoirs and still keep the double-adjustability.

06GT

I don't have any aftermarket anti-squat stuff installed. Will look into the BMR stuff now.
EDIT: After looking at BMR's website, I don't see a specific anti-squat kit--where can I get more info on this? Got next track day on August 15th, so if I can get it and install it before then, I can test it out

Been looking for the spring rate info so I could break out my Mechanical Vibrations textbook and try to find critical damping (or as close to critical) as I could get with a mixing of aftermarket stuff

SoundGuyDave

For the anti-squat gear, you're looking for the LCA relocation brackets. The anti-squat percentage is a function of lower control arm angle... Angled down from the axle to the body (think lowering springs), you will have lower percentages of anti-squat. The brackets allow the rear mount point to be lowered, to get your bars parallel to the ground or even slightly up from the axle to the body. The BMR brackets are nice, as are the Steeda ones. Do a little web-research on "anti-squat" and "instant center" and you'll quickly get the idea of the benefit of tuning anti-squat into (or out of) the car. There is some effect on brake dive from the rear-end. It sounds counter-intuitive, but it's there.

06GT

OK, thanks! That is a "cheap" mod, too!

Import-Slaya

Dave,
Ditch those BMR springs as fast as you can! I ran them for about a week (a little over 2 years ago if I remember correctly...) before getting rid of them. Some emails with BMR confirmed exactly what I was feeling--their spring rates are not really performance oriented. Rather, they seem to be aimed at giving a nice drop without sacrificing ride comfort. Kudos to BMR--as always--for exemplary customer service, though. They took them back without issue, even though I had installed them and driven on them. They may have changed rates since then, though???

Here are some spring rates for comparison (the only wheel rates I have are for the stockers):

Stock Front: 136.5 lb (wheel rate of 170.7 lb)
Stock Rear: 142.2 lb (wheel rate of 170.7 lb)

Steeda Sport Front: 200 lb linear
Steeda Sport Rear: 175 lb linear

Steeda Comp Front: 225 lb linear
Steeda Comp Rear: 185 lb linear

Eibach Pro Kit Front: 171-230 progressive
Eibach Pro Kit Rear: 110-200 progressive

BMR SP009 Front: 120-165 lb progressive
BMR Sp009 Rear: 130 lb linear

The caveat for the stock rates is that those rates are from the 2004 factory spec sheet and *may* be slightly different, but I doubt it.

Lots of interesting things going on, though. Balanced wheel rates front and rear from the factory, but all of the aftermarkets decouple the front and rear and bias towards more spring up front. Suspension theory would seem to indicate that this would add a little *more* understeer than what is from the factory.

In practice, I definitely noticed it with the BMR springs (no sways at the time), but not at all with the Eibachs--they seemed to keep similar balance compared to the factory, only with flatter handling. The swaybars, when added, balanced out the ride more towards neutral (still a touch of understeer at the limit, which is exactly what I want).

Some of what is going on may be that the spring manufacturers are taking into account the front end geometry change with the ~1" +/- 0.5" drop and adding a little more rate to counteract the changed roll center.

Of course, that doesn't explain the rear rates and the drop induced roll-understeer...

I like the Steeda rates, but with a 26" diameter r-comp, their drop isn't enough. I know, looks shouldn't come into play, but **** I love the stance AND feel of my Eibachs. I've heard very good things about the Vogtlands--don't know rates, but I'm sure they can be found.

Have you considered coil-overs? The Ground Control conversion kit is only about $400, including springs. If you like your Tokicos, that's a great way to go (it isn't reversible, though). I'm tempted, but two things keep stopping me--I'm not sure if I'd be able to adapt my MM camber plates to them, and I also would like to try either the Konis (everyone raves about them) or even another brand (maybe with independantly adjustable tuning).

So for now I'm going to stay put with the Eibachs and Tokicos for another year or so.

SoundGuyDave

I've got a buddy that is interested in buying my dampers and springs, and yes, I am definitely interested in doing coil-overs, but the next question is, of course, "which ones?" I've heard a lot of good things about the KW Variant 3, but again, need to stay away from external reservoirs. I'm also having a hard time getting info on the correct Koni part number for our application. As for the rears, most of the "coil over" kits seem to use standard dampers and an adjustable spring perch, but I wouldn't mind relocating the spring mount further outboard on the axle, like a traditional coil-over.

The next question is, obviously, what rate springs to go with. Based on the list you provided (THANK YOU!!), I think I'm looking for something in the 220-250 range front, and 180 to 220 rear, but I also hear the AI guys are running 300+ rates...

Import-Slaya

Now that's the question, isn't it... So many choices!

I recently helped my brother ("helped" meaning I installed and he watched ) put the KW v3 setup on his GTO. I didn't have much experience with KW's until this, but I am *very* impressed with their quality, customer service and the overall setup and feel. It transformed the car from a wallowing pig into an M5 nuker. I don't know how compatible the Mustang oriented KW's are with strut top caster/camber plates, though. That's a big question mark to have if you are dropping that kind of money. Shoot Rodeoflyer a PM--he's running their full setup (they used his car as their test car or something--lucky dude!).

Ground Control offers a complete setup, too, based on Koni shocks/struts. The complete kit including their caster/camber plates is $1,600. http://www.ground-control-store.com/...hp/II=666/CA=2 Not a bad deal at all and one to consider.

In fact, Griggs is now offering their own "coilover kit" which looks hauntingly familiar... http://www.griggsracing.com/product_...roducts_id=462 Gee, it's $200 less than the Ground Control version--oh wait, it's only the front end.

What you will get with Griggs is some of the best Mustang specific tech--they'll guide you in the right direction for spring rates and setup. They are also one of the few out there right now that is offering the relocated rear springs (the FRPP FR500S coilovers do too, but they are $5k plus!!). They even have their "315 brackets" which allow you to run 315's in the rear. Dayum, dayum, dayum that would be fun.

I was on the phone with Maximum Motorsports a few weeks ago and they said they have a wicked coilover setup in the works. When I asked what it would go for I just got a chuckle...and another chuckle, and another... It's remote reservoirs, etc... so I'm expecting $3-4k plus. More than I want to spend for many reasons.

At this point I don't want to rush in and get the new coilover setups simply because, well because they are too new and there are probably more kits in the works. I couldn't wait for the Konis when I got my Tokicos (Konis weren't out yet) and part of me wished I did. I don't want to make that mistake again (I just have this feeling the next year or two will yield many more options). That reminds me to try and call Koni next week and see if they will be offering their own kit.

Which is why I keep coming back to the Ground Control conversion kit. $400 isn't too bad even if I get rid of them in a year or two. The holdup for me is that I really like my MM camber plates and I don't know if there is an easy way to make them work with the Ground Control kit. Another reminder --call MM again and ask if they have an adapter for coilovers (they do for their previous kits).

I'm also very happy with how my car handles right now and honestly don't know if I'm at a level of being able to *really* take advantage of coilovers. I may corner weigh the car this summer and use shims in the rear to get my cross-weights as optimized as possible. That'll probably get me 70% there without taking any additional allocated points for time trials down the road.

For your situation, especially since you have someone lined up to buy your current setup, the full Ground Control kit would be very tempting. If you were to just get the standard Koni dampers, something like the Steeda/Vogtland/Eibach springs, and some caster/camber plates, you'd be spending about $1300 - $1400. Now, you'd have a great setup to be sure, but you wouldn't have the coilover adjustabililty. For $200 - $300 more you get it all. Not a huge savings, but you don't have to hassle with grinding your front struts into oblivion to convert to coilovers--just install it all at once and you are done.

Of course, you could just get springs and struts for now, especially if you don't need the strut top caster/camber plates right now. ($hit!! One more reminder to let you know if my camber/toe relationship experiment works! Hopefully next week, or weekend at the latest)

Oh well, I rambled too long, but as you can see it's something I've been wrestling with for a while, too. I'm trying to stick with what I've got for now, though.

That Agent47 SLA conversion just keeps calling to me...and I am weak!

SoundGuyDave

You and I are in EXACTLY the same boat... Coil-overs are only a few $$ more than just struts and springs, single-adjustables are only going to add a few $$ to that, but double-adjustables are only $$ more, and really, the SLA isn't THAT much more than coil-overs with DA dampers... I'm not Boris Said, Jr., but I honestly think I've found the limits of my current suspension and tire package, and I want MORE!!! I test-fit my Cobra-R 17" wheels, and they fit, so I think I'll be shopping for R-Comps in the near future, but for now I really need to get my suspension sorted first... Crap, I think my MasterCard just melted...

I'll drop a line to Rodeo and see what he has to say about the KW's and spring rates...

Stoenr

Hey that pic looks familiar, hey now its gray!







Hey wait, whos that guy behind me?






I did not even know this sub forum existed!

06GT

WOW

Unrelated note, installing CHE Anti-squat today

SoundGuyDave

I dunno, looks like I'm ahead here...



We did leave everybody else in the dust on that run...

Oh, just informationally, that "clunk" that I was getting was definitely a loose motor-mount bolt. It took a liberal application of Locktite to get it to stick, and on top of that, I oval'd out my right LCA's front (poly) bushing to the tune of .010" free play... No WONDER I was getting loose in and out... Problem solved, though, with a nice box from Maximum Motorsports... Rod-ends are GOOD!!


Repeat the mantra: "It's NOT a race... it just costs like one!"

That whole day was a blast, and it was great meeting you... going to the NASA meet there in October?

Stoenr

ha, ha, yeah, I left the pics out that you started off in front of me.

Me and Dave sure did dominate that field, no questions asked. Next time out I am going up a level. Buncha pu$$ies in their over priced, too much HP for their own good car class!



Already have the Che anti squats.


Edit: I got a squeek now whenever the rear suspension changes load, will need to investigate asap.

SoundGuyDave

Lube up everything in sight, particularly the front UCA bushing... Also, it wouldn't hurt to throw the car up on an alignment rack, and re-torque all the rear suspension mount bolts. I had one back off a little earlier this year, and with the poly bushings, they need to be torqued with the suspension loaded. I know you know that, just putting the info out on record. Oh, and synthetic grease only! I don't know if my bushing failed due to loading (cornering, accelerating and braking) or from a short excursion as a lawn-mower at Putnam Park. I overcooked the back half of a sweeper and wound up just a touch wide on track-out.

Stoenr

Lol, lawn mower. Yeah, I have a feeling it is that front UCA bushing, sounds like its coming from right over the back seat.

SoundGuyDave

Whose are you running, and are they poly/poly or poly/rod? I'm pulling my BMR adjustables tomorrow, and swapping in the Maximum Motorsports all-rod arms, so I may have a bushing or two for you if you want 'em quick... I'm going to buy new bushings for mine before I sell them.

brauer

This is what you want for the Vogtlands:
http://www.hotpart.com/index.php?p=s...id=1&sub_id=44

2005-Pres. Ford Mustang GT S197 #VOG 950084
Product Special! Only $177.50!!
Front 180 lb./in. - 240 lb./in. drop 1.3" or 35mm
Rear 180 lb./in. - 220 lb./in. drop 1.3" or 35mm

2007-Pres. Ford Mustang GT500 #VOG 953094
Front 152 lb./in. - 250 lb./in. drop 1.2" or 30mm
Rear 121 lb./in. - 225 lb./in. drop 1.2" or 30mm

2005-Pres Ford Mustang GT Leveling Spring Kit #VOG 953094
Front 152 lb./in. - 250 lb./in. drop .8" or 20mm
Rear 121 lb./in. - 225 lb./in. drop 1.2" or 30mm

From what it looks like, the same package is the GT500 regular set and the "leveling" set for the GT, just more drop on the GT500 2/2 its weight.
But, they are closer rates front to rear than those others, like y'all were saying.

They've got a killer deal w/ the D-Specs now that'll I'll probably pick up.

Import-Slaya

SoundGuy,
Make sure you post some feedback on the MM LCA's. I'm running a poly/rod combo right now, but am curious about how much more noise the full rod setup adds (not that I really care any more...).

Oh, and you guys crack me up with the pics. I've been toying with an idea to have an S197 forum track day--somewhere centrally located (mid-ohio?) so as many forum regulars show up as possible. But then I think about it and realize that we'd probably be a little too nuts out there and some of us wouldn't be driving our cars home...

SoundGuyDave

Your wish is my command! Spent a weekend driving from Chicago to Road America (around 3 hours), two days at the track (20, 25, 30, and 20 minute sessions), then drove home, with a few new parts installed, namely the MM all-rod lower control arms and Panhard rod, and a set of MM camber-caster plates, retaining my crash bolts in the upper strut holes. I swapped out the parts, did a string-alignment at my shop (pro-audio, not automotive), then ran the car over to a buddy's repair shop for a "real" alignment and an oil change (Amsoil 10W-40, picked up 10PSI cold, and around 5PSI with oil temps hitting 220 on track).

Item one: The MM lower control arms and Panhard rod. First off, they are LOUD!! Running around, there is a VERY present sound similar to that of water running through pipes coming from the rear of the car, along with a noticeable gear whine (not a failure, just NO NVH control at all), tire rumble, etc. Combined with the engine whine transmitted through the frame from the Prothane motor mounts, the exhaust is barely audible under steady-state cruise. Still cuts through nicely under load, but... Now the fun subjective part... Feel! HOLY (insert expletive here), can I feel the car now! I can feel EVERY little twitch that my retarded right foot induces in the rear of the car, and to be honest, it really helps my pedal modulation, since I can feel the rear getting just the little bit squirreley, rather than correcting when it starts to step out. The axle is positively LOCKED to the back of the car, and it feels extremely responsive as a result. I've never run RA before, so no before and after impressions, and my experience level isn't high enough to really comment in a vacuum, but the difference is noticeable, and positive, in my opinion.

Item two: MM camber/caster plates. Naturally, when I did the string alignment at my shop, I dialled in maximum caster, swung the plates outboard for max positive camber, and then aligned as best I could with the crash-bolts (eccentrics). I wound up getting one degree negative total on each side, and roughed in the toe at 1/8" in total for the "street" alignment. I figured that I would pick up some toe-out when I dropped the plates inboard, so I ran it onto an alignment rack to be certain. My string technique was apparently flawed. The "real" numbers (Hunter machine) wound up being 0.9* on each side, and 3/16" toe in. We dropped the plates inboard on the rack, settled the car, and found -2.6* on each side, but oddly, the toe-in INCREASED to 5/16". I really didn't want to mess with too much at the track, so I ran my first session with the "street" alignment on the car, and it was pretty cool, including an 85MPH off-track excursion across some rumble-strips, asphalt, kitty litter, and grass, in that order. Patience, young Jedi, patience... After three COMPLETE laps of a 4-mile high-speed track behind a Civic doing 50MPH tops (novice driver, no point-by, frustrated instructor in the car with him), I discovered that 135MPH on a downhill, 500 feet from a sharp left-hand 90* turn is NOT the time to realize you don't have brakes or tires up to temp yet... Pah, who needs paint on the bottom of their frame rails?

Next session, no offs, street alignment, all good, but I had a wicked push going, so I softened up the front bar, dumped the camber plates inboard, and went out for the third session. Wound up gridding first, spent the first half-lap getting things warm, and then went to town. HUGE difference. Without a pyrometer, I can't tell if I'm toed in too far, but I think a little less toe-in would be good, I was only getting up to 135-140, and the car was a little TOO stable there, if you follow me. Still a little pushy on exit, but I had three glorious laps of wide open track, then proceded to lap the back 1/3 of my run group by the end of the session.

Oh, I see you've seen my driving! Seriously, though, that's a good thought. We had three S197's in my run group, and only two left under their own power. An early turn-in, followed by a loose rear and a lifted throttle launched a silver 2005 into the inside wall of 14... Not good. The other 197 spanked me pretty good, but he had comp tires, a full cage, coilovers, and a few other goodies... Same control arms, though!

If you do decide to set up a track day, count me in, it sounds like a blast!! If you set it up like a NASA event, we probably won't need EVERY wrecker in the county, just most of them... All joking aside, I would hope that most people that would show up would be track vets, not novices, since there is WAYY too much to assimilate without worrying about relatively evenly-matched traffic all around you. Let's face it, I get confused when the blue flag with the yellow diagonal is waved at me... That's the flag that is shown to the other cars on the track to tell them to get out of my way...