View Poll Results: Who are You Voting For? And Why if you Care to Elaborate!
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Obama or McCain? Poll
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
- His economic policy is stupid. He has no clue how a business works, let alone how the American economy works. For example, read his ideas on re-negotiating NAFTA. Google “Obama’s Economic Patriot Act” and do a bit of reading. I cannot understand how anyone that has a basic understanding of economics can support this guy. Common sense is really lost in America!
- He skirts the issues. All the guy has is plans for “change”. When the time comes to make decisions he votes “present”. When he does vote, he votes really far left. You are starting to nationally hear about this due to his abortion voting record here in IL.
- His ideas are washed up policy from the 60’s. Anyone remember LBJ’s “Great Society”. Other ideas, are straight out of Karl Marx’s playbook!
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Please. You are so incredibly predictable, as this is exactly the kind of response I expected, a rather lame attempt to divert attention away from your true/original intent after being busted for it. Of course, I rather doubt anybody is buying what you are selling by this point.
Could it perhaps be because self-proclaimed "know it alls" like yourself can't stand being usurped by somone more intelligent than themselves?
I laughed so hard I think I cracked a rib!
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
With a more than $9 trillion national debt, trillions more in unfunded liabilities, soaring consumer debt, and a crumbling infrastructure, the United States is in a deep economic crisis. America is beholden to other countries, some hostile to your interests, that own that debt.
Following 2004, the net amount of U.S. liabilities, including Treasury securities, held by foreigners was equal to 29 percent of GDP. The current account deficit was equal to almost 6 percent of GDP and growing, giving the United States the dubious distinction of being the only large industrial country that has run current account deficits in excess of 5 percent. Never in the history of modern economics has a large industrial country run persistent current account deficits of the magnitude posted by the U.S. since 2000.
The faith based "free" trade policies of the Bush administration and its predecessors have failed America. They’ve led to 33 consecutive yeas of massive trade defiicts, 3 million lost jobs, and a collapsing economy. Now John McCain is promisig to extend and expand those policies.
McCain as a choice based upon his economic policies?! You HAVE to be kidding!
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Let’s talk about some critical Obama facts.
- His economic policy is stupid. He has no clue how a business works, let alone how the American economy works. For example, read his ideas on re-negotiating NAFTA. Google “Obama’s Economic Patriot Act” and do a bit of reading. I cannot understand how anyone that has a basic understanding of economics can support this guy. Common sense is really lost in America!
- He skirts the issues. All the guy has is plans for “change”. When the time comes to make decisions he votes “present”. When he does vote, he votes really far left. You are starting to nationally hear about this due to his abortion voting record here in IL.
- His ideas are washed up policy from the 60’s. Anyone remember LBJ’s “Great Society”. Other ideas, are straight out of Karl Marx’s playbook!
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
With a more than $9 trillion national debt, trillions more in unfunded liabilities, soaring consumer debt, and a crumbling infrastructure, the United States is in a deep economic crisis. America is beholden to other countries, some hostile to your interests, that own that debt.
GT Member
Joined: September 18, 2007
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
as for obama mama hussain, if he becomes president, and I were still serving in the military I would resign, done deal, I would not serve a non flag saluting, anti american church going, who is backed farrahkan a anti american muslim
Last edited by HAMRS_gt; Aug 21, 2008 at 05:06 PM.
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 7,738
Likes: 361
From: U S A
Post *****
Joined: October 9, 2007
Posts: 32,808
Likes: 163
Why must every liberal see John McCain as another 4 years of George Bush. Truth be known McCain might just be the liberals best friend. He crosses the aisle more times than Larry King's wedding party, and has never found a liberal he wouldn't work with, or should I say give in to. So you won't get the all out Marxism you would with Obama, but you'll certainly get most everything else with McCain. But the one thing you won't get is a weaker American defense and security. The one thing you desire most. Because a weak America under Obama, is a vulnerable America, with Obama'a help of dismantling the military we are wide open to the downfall you so desperately crave. Because make no mistake my friends, liberals, socialists, and Marxists first and foremost crave the downfall of the capitalistic American republic. The entire democratic platform is based upon it.
Success in Iraq means bad news for Democrats.
Failure in Iraq means good news for Democrats.
Stock market in the crapper good for dems, stock market through the roof bad.
Recession or depression good for dems.
Weak military good for dems.
Senator Biden or Daschle once said, and I paraphrase that for every drop of 50 points in the stock market the deomcrats would pick up another seat in the Congress.
Bad for us, good for them.
Success in Iraq means bad news for Democrats.
Failure in Iraq means good news for Democrats.
Stock market in the crapper good for dems, stock market through the roof bad.
Recession or depression good for dems.
Weak military good for dems.
Senator Biden or Daschle once said, and I paraphrase that for every drop of 50 points in the stock market the deomcrats would pick up another seat in the Congress.
Bad for us, good for them.
Last edited by 2k7gtcs; Aug 21, 2008 at 05:48 PM.
Team Mustang Source
Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 2,358
Likes: 1
If I'm so predictable, then why do you so predictably keep trying to emerge from my shadow after every remark I make?
Could it perhaps be because self-proclaimed "know it alls" like yourself can't stand being usurped by somone more intelligent than themselves?
Could it perhaps be because self-proclaimed "know it alls" like yourself can't stand being usurped by somone more intelligent than themselves?
Last edited by jsaylor; Aug 21, 2008 at 06:46 PM.
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 7,738
Likes: 361
From: U S A
...
Success in Iraq means bad news for Democrats.
Failure in Iraq means good news for Democrats.
Stock market in the crapper good for dems, stock market through the roof bad.
Recession or depression good for dems.
Weak military good for dems.
Senator Biden or Daschle once said, and I paraphrase that for every drop of 50 points in the stock market the deomcrats would pick up another seat in the Congress.
Bad for us, good for them.
Success in Iraq means bad news for Democrats.
Failure in Iraq means good news for Democrats.
Stock market in the crapper good for dems, stock market through the roof bad.
Recession or depression good for dems.
Weak military good for dems.
Senator Biden or Daschle once said, and I paraphrase that for every drop of 50 points in the stock market the deomcrats would pick up another seat in the Congress.
Bad for us, good for them.
Could that possibly coincide with one of the socialists' tactics? Anyone punished long enough will find any relief to be a gift from God, or... Allah... whichever happens to be on duty.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
....and the constant promises of Giving $4 Billion to the Big three and $4,000 to every college student that does 120 hours of community service, etc, etc, etc are going to help reduce the National Debt?.....Riiiiight. The only thing I've heard out of Obama is spend, spend, spend.....nothing about reducing the national debt.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
The fact that you dodge the issues and are now focusing almost exclusively on comments like these only serves to make it that much clearer that you are losing this argument. Feel free to cast the occasional insult, but please do see fit to intersperse those insults with some substance from time to time.
Stop trying to be clever and realize you're on the wrong side of the equation.
Last edited by Hollywood_North GT; Aug 21, 2008 at 06:55 PM.
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
At least he has one. By his own admission, McCain doesn't "get economics". What you WILL get, however, is another four years of George Bush's failed economic policies, chief amongst them, a propensity for negotiating one-sided free trade deals with **** near every country he can pronounce or find on a map.
With a more than $9 trillion national debt, trillions more in unfunded liabilities, soaring consumer debt, and a crumbling infrastructure, the United States is in a deep economic crisis. America is beholden to other countries, some hostile to your interests, that own that debt.
Following 2004, the net amount of U.S. liabilities, including Treasury securities, held by foreigners was equal to 29 percent of GDP. The current account deficit was equal to almost 6 percent of GDP and growing, giving the United States the dubious distinction of being the only large industrial country that has run current account deficits in excess of 5 percent. Never in the history of modern economics has a large industrial country run persistent current account deficits of the magnitude posted by the U.S. since 2000.
The faith based "free" trade policies of the Bush administration and its predecessors have failed America. They’ve led to 33 consecutive yeas of massive trade defiicts, 3 million lost jobs, and a collapsing economy. Now John McCain is promisig to extend and expand those policies.
McCain as a choice based upon his economic policies?! You HAVE to be kidding!
With a more than $9 trillion national debt, trillions more in unfunded liabilities, soaring consumer debt, and a crumbling infrastructure, the United States is in a deep economic crisis. America is beholden to other countries, some hostile to your interests, that own that debt.
Following 2004, the net amount of U.S. liabilities, including Treasury securities, held by foreigners was equal to 29 percent of GDP. The current account deficit was equal to almost 6 percent of GDP and growing, giving the United States the dubious distinction of being the only large industrial country that has run current account deficits in excess of 5 percent. Never in the history of modern economics has a large industrial country run persistent current account deficits of the magnitude posted by the U.S. since 2000.
The faith based "free" trade policies of the Bush administration and its predecessors have failed America. They’ve led to 33 consecutive yeas of massive trade defiicts, 3 million lost jobs, and a collapsing economy. Now John McCain is promisig to extend and expand those policies.
McCain as a choice based upon his economic policies?! You HAVE to be kidding!
McCain is for a balanced budget, which is a good start. Obama is going to make Bush seem like a cheap when it comes to spending. How are we going to finance entitlement programs without raising taxes on the middle class? Hmm, more deficit spending? Or maybe Obama is plain lying on his tax ideas. Makes you wonder!
Last edited by max2000jp; Aug 21, 2008 at 09:57 PM.
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
In 10 years from now, if there is a stable democratic gov't in Iraq, was the war worth it? I'd say yes, if you look back thousands of years. A stable democracy in the middle east could be a great thing for that region. We are fighting to bring an entire region into the 21st century. I hope that we win!
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
You see this is a perfect example of your ingorance in this discussion/debate...you are ASSuming(you do know the reference I am getting at don't you?) that I am for the war.....when the facts are that I don't like it but at the same time I WILL support it because just pulling out and giving up would be a slap in the face to all who sacrificied their lives and the fact that we are making progress. There is no doubt that Iraq was breeding hatred for the U.S. and the whole WMD debate shows both a breakdown in our intelligence service but at the same time it is completely ignorant to believe that they did not remove/hide their poison gas, etc, etc....after all they had MANY years to do so when the first Bush failed to go all the way and complete the job. So while I don't agree with dumping 10 Billion per month, I do have the ability to see the big picture and believe that follow through regardless of right or wrong in the first place is the only way to finish the job....a cut and run policy promoted and supported by Obama would only serve to show as a weakness and feed the terrorists and militia. Somalia is a good example of this...Clinton just walked away and now there is no central Govt. to this day and there is now a problem of pirates attacking passing vessels and cruise ships.
Now the latest pathetic attack by Obama is that he is trying to scream out that McCain is wealthy and out of touch with Americans.....pretty laughable when Obama made $4 MILLION last year alone and has an estate worth Millions of dollars....yeah, like HE is better in touch with Americans....talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Bullitt Member
Joined: November 9, 2007
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
From: South Carolina
The Man... keeping you down.
Joined: August 15, 2004
Posts: 823
Likes: 1
From: Stealin' ur internetz
No WMD's in Iraq? Are people still really drinking this kool-aide?
WMD Declassified Report
Even the Democrats, the same one's who beat the "No WMD's in Iraq" drum said it themselves... but it was before the public was looking so closely:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas
Yep, Sarin gas is a WMD and it was found in Iraq. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that everyone who says different is spouting 
and furthering their own agenda.
From the article above we can see Syria has Sarin gas. Since Iranian engineers were killed in the explosions it's not a stretch to determine that Iran has it too. Throw it on top of the fact that Iran is enriching Plutonium for weapons and you have pretty dang good reasons to stay in the middle east. Sometimes being the responsible entity means doing unpopular things.
As for saying the Iraqi's don't want us there, you need to stop watching the for-profit media and talk to a service man/woman about what the Iraqi people really think of us. Cindy Sheehan doesn't count either.
WMD Declassified Report
Even the Democrats, the same one's who beat the "No WMD's in Iraq" drum said it themselves... but it was before the public was looking so closely:
"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps woill be emboldened tommorrow." - President Bill Clinton 1998
"Saddam's goal...is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." - Secretary of State Madeline Albright, 1998
,br> "Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." - Senator Tom Dashle, 1998
"There is no doubt that...Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of allicit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Senator Bob Graham, December 2001
"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Former Vice President Al Gore, 2002
"I share this administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." - Richard Gephardt, September 2002
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." - Senator Edward Kennedy, September 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Fomrer Vice President Al Gore, September 2002 br> "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Queda members, though there is apparently no evidence in his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." Senator Hillary Clinton, October 2002
"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadlt arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Senator John Kerry, October 2003
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build his chemical and biological warfare capability. intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." Senator Robert Byrd, October, 2002
"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He already used them against his neighbors and his own people and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." Senator John Edwards, October 2002
"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." - Barbara Boxer, November 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Bob Graham, December 2002
"Without question we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppresive regime...He presents a particularly grievious threat because he is so consistantly prone to miscalculation. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." - Senator John Kerry, January, 2003
"I am absolutely confident that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we could see the inspectors being barred gaining entry into a warehouse for hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." Clinton's Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, April 2003
"Saddam's goal...is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." - Secretary of State Madeline Albright, 1998
,br> "Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." - Senator Tom Dashle, 1998
"There is no doubt that...Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of allicit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Senator Bob Graham, December 2001
"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Former Vice President Al Gore, 2002
"I share this administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." - Richard Gephardt, September 2002
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." - Senator Edward Kennedy, September 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Fomrer Vice President Al Gore, September 2002 br> "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Queda members, though there is apparently no evidence in his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." Senator Hillary Clinton, October 2002
"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadlt arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Senator John Kerry, October 2003
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build his chemical and biological warfare capability. intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." Senator Robert Byrd, October, 2002
"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He already used them against his neighbors and his own people and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." Senator John Edwards, October 2002
"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." - Barbara Boxer, November 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Bob Graham, December 2002
"Without question we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppresive regime...He presents a particularly grievious threat because he is so consistantly prone to miscalculation. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." - Senator John Kerry, January, 2003
"I am absolutely confident that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we could see the inspectors being barred gaining entry into a warehouse for hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." Clinton's Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, April 2003
Originally Posted by Fort Worth Star Telegram
Report says Syria has nerve gas
The Associated Press
LONDON -- A Syrian military installation rocked by an explosion in July was being used to develop chemical weapons, and Iranian engineers were among those killed, a defense publication reported Wednesday.
Blast site
Jane's Defence Weekly said the explosion occurred July 26 at a military complex outside the city of Aleppo, the site of a joint Iranian/Syrian project to fit short-range ballistic missiles with chemical warheads.
What happened
Jane's cited Syrian defense sources as saying the blast happened during a test to fit a "Scud C" missile with a mustard-gas warhead when fuel caught fire at the production site. The explosion dispersed chemical agents, including VX and sarin nerve agents and mustard blister agent across the storage facility and outside.
Fatalities
The blast killed at least 15 Syrian soldiers and "dozens" of Iranian weapons engineers, according to the Syrian sources quoted by Jane's.
Syrian-Iranian cooperation
The publication said the chemical weapons program was part of a strategic cooperation accord signed between Syria and Iran in November 2005. Syria has never acknowledged having any weapons of mass destruction and has publicly called for ridding the Middle East of them. Western experts believe Syria has a stock of chemical weapons.
Report accurate?
W. Patrick Lang, the former head of Middle East intelligence at the Defense Intelligence Agency, however, questioned the veracity of the Jane's report. He said he thought it was unlikely that a Syrian defense official would reveal information about the country's chemical weapons program. "This sounds like a planted story to me," he said, speculating that the report could later be used to justify an attack on Syria.
The Associated Press
LONDON -- A Syrian military installation rocked by an explosion in July was being used to develop chemical weapons, and Iranian engineers were among those killed, a defense publication reported Wednesday.
Blast site
Jane's Defence Weekly said the explosion occurred July 26 at a military complex outside the city of Aleppo, the site of a joint Iranian/Syrian project to fit short-range ballistic missiles with chemical warheads.
What happened
Jane's cited Syrian defense sources as saying the blast happened during a test to fit a "Scud C" missile with a mustard-gas warhead when fuel caught fire at the production site. The explosion dispersed chemical agents, including VX and sarin nerve agents and mustard blister agent across the storage facility and outside.
Fatalities
The blast killed at least 15 Syrian soldiers and "dozens" of Iranian weapons engineers, according to the Syrian sources quoted by Jane's.
Syrian-Iranian cooperation
The publication said the chemical weapons program was part of a strategic cooperation accord signed between Syria and Iran in November 2005. Syria has never acknowledged having any weapons of mass destruction and has publicly called for ridding the Middle East of them. Western experts believe Syria has a stock of chemical weapons.
Report accurate?
W. Patrick Lang, the former head of Middle East intelligence at the Defense Intelligence Agency, however, questioned the veracity of the Jane's report. He said he thought it was unlikely that a Syrian defense official would reveal information about the country's chemical weapons program. "This sounds like a planted story to me," he said, speculating that the report could later be used to justify an attack on Syria.
Originally Posted by Fox News
BAGHDAD, Iraq — A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent (search) recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday.
Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.
Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.
"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."
The round detonated before it would be rendered inoperable, Kimmitt said, which caused a "very small dispersal of agent."
However, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the results were from a field test, which can be imperfect, and said more analysis was needed. If confirmed, it would be the first finding of a banned weapon upon which the United States based its case for war.
Click to Read the Weapons of Mass Destruction Handbook
A senior Bush administration official told Fox News that the sarin gas shell is the second chemical weapon discovered recently.
Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group (search) — a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass destruction — and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the gas "ineffective."
They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom began last year. Iraq also failed to then account for 450 aerial bombs with mustard gas. That, combined with the shells, totaled about 80 tons of unaccounted for mustard gas.
It also appears some top Pentagon officials were surprised by the sarin news; they thought the matter was classified, administration officials told Fox News.
An official at the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) headquarters in New York said the commission is surprised to hear news of the mustard gas.
"If that's the case, why didn't they announce it earlier?" the official asked.
The UNMOVIC official said the group needs to know more from the Bush administration before it's possible to determine if this is "old or new stuff. It is known that Iraq used sarin during the Iraq-Iran war, however.
Kimmitt said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to that time.
"It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED and basically from the detection of that and when it exploded, it indicated that it actually had some sarin in it," Kimmitt said.
The incident occurred "a couple of days ago," he added. The discovery reportedly occurred near Baghdad International Airport.
Washington officials say the significance of the find is that some chemical shells do still exist in Iraq, and it's thought that fighters there may be upping their attacks on U.S. forces by using such weapons.
The round was an old "binary-type" shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.
He said he believed that insurgents who rigged the artillery shell as a bomb didn't know it contained the nerve agent, and that the dispersal of the nerve agent from such a rigged device was very limited.
The shell had no markings. It appears the binary sarin agents didn't mix, which is why there weren't serious injuries from the initial explosion, a U.S. official told Fox News.
"Everybody knew Saddam had chemical weapons, the question was, where did they go. Unfortunately, everybody jumped on the offramp and said 'well, because we didn't find them, he didn't have them,'" said Fox News military analyst Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney.
"I doubt if it's the tip of the iceberg but it does confirm what we've known ... that he [Saddam] had weapons of mass destruction that he used on his own people," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, told Fox News. "This does show that the fear we had is very real. Now whether there is much more of this we don't know, Iraq is the size of the state of California."
But there were more reasons than weapons to get rid of Saddam, he added. "We considered Saddam Hussein a threat not just because of weapons of mass destruction," Grassley said.
Iraqi Scientist: You Will Find More
Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.
George said the finding likely will be the first in a series of discoveries of such weapons.
"Saddam is the type who will not store those materials in a military warehouse. He's gonna store them either underground, or, as I said, lots of them have gone west to Syria and are being brought back with the insurgencies," George told Fox News. "It is difficult to look in areas that are not obvious to the military's eyes.
"I'm sure they're going to find more once time passes," he continued, saying one year is not enough for the survey group or the military to find the weapons.
Saddam, when he was in power, had declared that he did in fact possess mustard-gas filled artilleries but none that included sarin.
"I think what we found today, the sarin in some ways, although it's a nerve gas, it's a lucky situation sarin detonated in the way it did ... it's not as dangerous as the cocktails Saddam used to make, mixing blister" agents with other gases and substances, George said.
Officials: Discovery Is 'Significant'
U.S. officials told Fox News that the shell discovery is a "significant" event.
Artillery shells of the 155-mm size are as big as it gets when it comes to the ordnance lobbed by infantry-based artillery units. The 155 howitzer can launch high capacity shells over several miles; current models used by the United States can fire shells as far as 14 miles. One official told Fox News that a conventional 155-mm shell could hold as much as "two to five" liters of sarin, which is capable of killing thousands of people under the right conditions in highly populated areas.
The Iraqis were very capable of producing such shells in the 1980s but it's not as clear that they continued after the first Gulf War.
In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo (search) cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.
Developed in the mid-1930s by **** scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the ***** actually using the gas.
Nerve gases work by inhibiting key enzymes in the nervous system, blocking their transmission. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.
Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective that top poison gas researchers predict they eventually will cease to be a war threat.
Fox News' Wendell Goler, Steve Harrigan, Ian McCaleb, Liza Porteus, James Rosen and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.
Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.
"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."
The round detonated before it would be rendered inoperable, Kimmitt said, which caused a "very small dispersal of agent."
However, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the results were from a field test, which can be imperfect, and said more analysis was needed. If confirmed, it would be the first finding of a banned weapon upon which the United States based its case for war.
Click to Read the Weapons of Mass Destruction Handbook
A senior Bush administration official told Fox News that the sarin gas shell is the second chemical weapon discovered recently.
Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group (search) — a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass destruction — and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the gas "ineffective."
They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom began last year. Iraq also failed to then account for 450 aerial bombs with mustard gas. That, combined with the shells, totaled about 80 tons of unaccounted for mustard gas.
It also appears some top Pentagon officials were surprised by the sarin news; they thought the matter was classified, administration officials told Fox News.
An official at the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) headquarters in New York said the commission is surprised to hear news of the mustard gas.
"If that's the case, why didn't they announce it earlier?" the official asked.
The UNMOVIC official said the group needs to know more from the Bush administration before it's possible to determine if this is "old or new stuff. It is known that Iraq used sarin during the Iraq-Iran war, however.
Kimmitt said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to that time.
"It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED and basically from the detection of that and when it exploded, it indicated that it actually had some sarin in it," Kimmitt said.
The incident occurred "a couple of days ago," he added. The discovery reportedly occurred near Baghdad International Airport.
Washington officials say the significance of the find is that some chemical shells do still exist in Iraq, and it's thought that fighters there may be upping their attacks on U.S. forces by using such weapons.
The round was an old "binary-type" shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.
He said he believed that insurgents who rigged the artillery shell as a bomb didn't know it contained the nerve agent, and that the dispersal of the nerve agent from such a rigged device was very limited.
The shell had no markings. It appears the binary sarin agents didn't mix, which is why there weren't serious injuries from the initial explosion, a U.S. official told Fox News.
"Everybody knew Saddam had chemical weapons, the question was, where did they go. Unfortunately, everybody jumped on the offramp and said 'well, because we didn't find them, he didn't have them,'" said Fox News military analyst Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney.
"I doubt if it's the tip of the iceberg but it does confirm what we've known ... that he [Saddam] had weapons of mass destruction that he used on his own people," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, told Fox News. "This does show that the fear we had is very real. Now whether there is much more of this we don't know, Iraq is the size of the state of California."
But there were more reasons than weapons to get rid of Saddam, he added. "We considered Saddam Hussein a threat not just because of weapons of mass destruction," Grassley said.
Iraqi Scientist: You Will Find More
Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.
George said the finding likely will be the first in a series of discoveries of such weapons.
"Saddam is the type who will not store those materials in a military warehouse. He's gonna store them either underground, or, as I said, lots of them have gone west to Syria and are being brought back with the insurgencies," George told Fox News. "It is difficult to look in areas that are not obvious to the military's eyes.
"I'm sure they're going to find more once time passes," he continued, saying one year is not enough for the survey group or the military to find the weapons.
Saddam, when he was in power, had declared that he did in fact possess mustard-gas filled artilleries but none that included sarin.
"I think what we found today, the sarin in some ways, although it's a nerve gas, it's a lucky situation sarin detonated in the way it did ... it's not as dangerous as the cocktails Saddam used to make, mixing blister" agents with other gases and substances, George said.
Officials: Discovery Is 'Significant'
U.S. officials told Fox News that the shell discovery is a "significant" event.
Artillery shells of the 155-mm size are as big as it gets when it comes to the ordnance lobbed by infantry-based artillery units. The 155 howitzer can launch high capacity shells over several miles; current models used by the United States can fire shells as far as 14 miles. One official told Fox News that a conventional 155-mm shell could hold as much as "two to five" liters of sarin, which is capable of killing thousands of people under the right conditions in highly populated areas.
The Iraqis were very capable of producing such shells in the 1980s but it's not as clear that they continued after the first Gulf War.
In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo (search) cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.
Developed in the mid-1930s by **** scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the ***** actually using the gas.
Nerve gases work by inhibiting key enzymes in the nervous system, blocking their transmission. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.
Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective that top poison gas researchers predict they eventually will cease to be a war threat.
Fox News' Wendell Goler, Steve Harrigan, Ian McCaleb, Liza Porteus, James Rosen and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Sarin, also known by its NATO designation of GB, is an extremely toxic substance whose sole application is as a nerve agent. As a chemical weapon, it is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations in UN Resolution 687.
and furthering their own agenda.From the article above we can see Syria has Sarin gas. Since Iranian engineers were killed in the explosions it's not a stretch to determine that Iran has it too. Throw it on top of the fact that Iran is enriching Plutonium for weapons and you have pretty dang good reasons to stay in the middle east. Sometimes being the responsible entity means doing unpopular things.
As for saying the Iraqi's don't want us there, you need to stop watching the for-profit media and talk to a service man/woman about what the Iraqi people really think of us. Cindy Sheehan doesn't count either.
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