Glenn

http://rare.us/story/this-is-the-las...-for-yourself/

wow

Joeywhat

It's hype. It doesn't work any better then any other snake oil bullet that's been put out there, and a good 'ole hollow point will do more damage. (source: I'm a gunsmith and have a hard drive partition dedicated to projectile ballistics).

narphenal

Not even going to click the link, but I am going to take a wild stab and say it's talking about the RIP round.

Looks stupid to me; all marketing IMO.

I'll stick with my 147g Hollow Points for now.

Moustang

It's just another Frangible Round, and like all frangible ammo it suffers from the same basic limitations. When the round comes apart each piece has less mass which means less penetration. It will create more holes, but the holes won't be as deep or as large. Plus hitting things like a heavy jacket will cause the round to come apart and dissipate a large amount of energy before hitting the body.

Functionally it's not a whole lot different from the .45 shotshell ammo that I have.



And in case you're wondering, .45 shotshell is excellent ammunition to use on snakes while hiking. Much easier to carry a handgun around than a shotgun.

Joeywhat

Snakes, rats, any small rodent, really. That's the one thing I like those Taurus Judge's for: they're great for dispatching small animals at close range. The .410 gets you a little more shot then a typical handgun caliber shot shell like those.

I love shooting .38 rat shot out of my dad's .357 Mag Derringer.

narphenal

I used to love disposing of snakes with the Judge I used to own.

cdynaco

Comments on Hornady's FTX bullet ('Critical Defense')? Do they really open up more than a regular JHP (1000fps muzzle)? The FTX looks like its filled with a soft silicone type material.

Glenn

well it did look cool anyway

rriddle3

There's an old saying,
"A 9mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks."

Joeywhat

I've heard of some issues where they didn't expand all the time, but that may have been fixed now. Good old hollow points are still the best.

narphenal

However, a 9mm will provide better penetration, less recoil allowing faster follow up shots, and more magazine capacity.

But at the end of the day, shot placement is King, along with penetration, and other factors are minor for the most part.

rriddle3

Yes, you are absolutely ri... Oh, who am I kidding? USA FTW.

Moustang

So would a .22, but I would rather hit the target with a .45 instead.


Penetration is overrated by itself. Who cares if it shoots through the bad guy and the wall behind him? That simply indicates that the bullet is not transferring much energy to it's target. You put a 9mm hole all the way through the guy, but didn't cause much damage outside of that.


I would much rather hit them with a hollow point .45. Sure, it may not go all the way through the guy, but his internal organs are going to look like ground beef.

narphenal

Obviously penetration standards are partially there for having to shoot through barriers(heavy clothing, etc) as well as a possible oblique shot that might have to hit an arm or otherwise similar blockage. And even more so it's going to depend on the round itself. And ballistics gel does not mimc bones or similar things found all throughout someones torso, just the muscle.

That's why I didn't just focus on penetration by itself, it's merely a facet of the whole picture. I personally feel like 9mm is overall a more universal and easily accessible round for many different people to shoot, much cheaper to practice with, and the mitigation of recoil will especially help in a situation as a home defense, as I know from personal experience, it isn't quite as easy to manipulate and handgun when you think you're about to have to use it. You'd be amazed what tunnel vision and the blood rushing from your hands will do to you.

But like I said, shot placement is king. Ultimately you're wanting a CNS hit that will render the attacker immobile and stop them, or to cause enough damage to the organs which will cause sufficient blood loss, etc, etc so on and so forth, you guys have heard that whole spiel many times over I am sure. In the case of a CCW, 9mm gives you more rounds to work with in a comparable form factor, and in the case of home defense, the pistol is there to serve until you can work your way to your rifle, where you get to break out the real frangible ammo. Pistols are pretty crappy all around for stopping a target.

Joeywhat

You need to remember that the energy a typical handgun round caries (9mm-.45 ACP type calibers) isn't enough to do any damage in and of itself. What does the damage is the projectile cutting through tissue. Hollow points help this as it makes the projectile larger in diameter, and makes the edges sharper (more damage to tissue it connects with). When talking handgun cartridges, a bullet that stops 1" from exiting the body versus a bullet that goes straight through the damage will be almost identical.

Meanwhile when you get into super fast rifle rounds (5.56, .308, .30-06, etc.) the energy present is actually enough to damage the tissue on it's own. The pressure created by the projectile can cause permanent cavities in the body (meaning the tissue has been upset enough to cause permanent damage), whereas with the handgun round you only get temporary wound cavities (meaning the tissue is upset but not damaged to a high degree) with a very small permanent cavity directly surrounding the bullet path.

This is why shot placement is key with handgun rounds. It's really key with every cartridge type, but it's critical with handgun rounds as the only REAL damage you are doing is what is directly in the path of the bullet. If it's just a bunch of soft tissue and fat, then it's not a wound that is likely to stop the target. They will be able to fight on and continue as an aggressor. You have to hit the heart, lungs, or nervous system to do enough damage to physical disable the target from continuing the attack. Broken bones may also help help the cause, but handgun rounds often can't do that very well (that is one case where heavy bullets will be preferred).

I always tell people to go read up on the FBI standards for handgun caliber ballistics. They've done a TON of testing with various handgun calibers and there testing is very informative. I always pick my ammo choices by their testing criteria. The primary of which is how well the projectile penetrates. Too little penetration means a VERY ineffective projectile, which is why most these "boutique" cartridges are crap: they don't penetrate nearly enough to be effective.

Plus if you hang around enough cops you'll start hearing stories of people getting shot dozens of times with handgun caliber rounds, and they never stopped fighting. Why? Because none of those shots hit a major organ. All that "energy dump" that some cartridge manufacturers like to brag about did a **** thing, the simple fact was that none of the shots ended up hitting important organs. When that happens the only way the attacker will be incapacitated is for them to bleed out, which can take considerable time.

Joeywhat

Also, anyone who hunts should be able to attest to the need for penetration over "energy dump". Choosing a bullet/cartridge that does not penetrate the animal enough will typically result in the animal running off and bleeding out sometime later. The folks who routinely drop the animals quickly use bullets that are capable of penetrating into the animal enough to hit the organs, and in many causes the bullet will exit.

I've seen people use varmint rounds on deer before and it's messy. Varmint rounds are a lot like the boutique self defense cartridges, they're often designed to break apart on contact and spread out the force. Works GREAT on something like a rabbit, works awfully on something like a deer. You end up with a HUGE entrance wound and none of the projectile even makes it much past the rib cage. Deer runs off and maybe you find it the next day after it took several hours to bleed out.

Meanwhile my trusty .30-30 puts a hole in both ends every time, and the soft point bullets barely expand, but it drops them right there every time. Never had one run more then a few yards.

kcoTiger

no one needs a pistol if you have a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. Nothing else need be said.

For personal carry, I'd rather have the .45. I'm not going to be shooting a pistol at anything further than 10 yards in a conflict, however, as I've done so before and pistols are just not what you want to have in your hand if the other guy has a gun and is more than a few steps away. No one, including trained professionals (of which I am/was one), hits anything with a semi-auto ANYTHING when the other guy has a gun and is trying to do to you what you're trying to do to him. It's amazing how so completely inaccurate a person becomes when the other guy is trying to take your life from you. Ballistics, penetration, spread, all that goes out the window. Shotgun!

Moustang

Gun control is the ability to hit your target. If you have good gun control and the proper round a second shot is not necessary.


That said, I have my magazine loaded with alternating rounds. One hollowpoint, the next full metal jacket. That way IF I ever need to shoot through something I'm no more than two trigger pulls from the desired round. But, when it comes to self defense, generally speaking if you need to shoot through something to hit your target then you start getting into the iffy situation where the question is asked "Are you defending yourself, or are you killing someone else?" Other than possibly needing to shoot through a jacket it's very hard to make the claim your life was threatened if the other person had sought shelter from you before being shot.


9mms certainly are. Based on a 10 years study the only ammo that was less likely to kill was the .32. Even the .380 has a higher percentage of one shot kills and a lower average shots to achieve incapacitation. The only handgun that fared better than the .45 was the .357 Magnum.


Hunting is entirely irrelevant in the context of this thread. NOBODY is going to hunt using frangible ammo either.

Anyone who hunts is almost certainly going to use a rifle.
Anyone who hunts is going to tailor their choice of ammo to the animal they are hunting. You don't hunt bear with a .22 and you don't hunt squirrel with a .375 H&H.

When you're hunting your primary goal is to kill the animal while preserving as much edible meat as possible. So yes, to achieve that goal you want ammo that stays in one piece and doesn't destroy a lot of internal tissue. You do however run into the situation where the animal can, and often does run after being shot because you didn't do enough damage for an instant kill. HOWEVER, if you did not care about preserving meat then a larger, heavier caliber round with a lot more expansion will result in a lot more instant kills. Take a .375 H&H deer hunting sometime to see what I mean.

Joeywhat

Many varmint rounds are designed to break apart on impact. It's not anything new.

I know a number of folks who have hunted (deer) with a pistol. Usually 9mm. Works great if you can get the shot. Longest shot I've seen was about 50 yards. All but one kill was in the vitals (the other was a neck shot).

I've taken a few courses on terminal ballistics, and the differences between handgun caliber effectiveness lies first in how well it penetrates the target, then onto size, shape, etc. I have at least a good 40 hours of class time regarding ballistics from various small arms, and over 200 hours of class time on shooting various small arms. During those times I've met plenty of people who have killed other people (police/military, mostly) and I have heard their first hand accounts of it.

There's a LOT of pseudo-science out there regarding ballistics. A lot of tests done in the name of science but without proper controls and accurate information.

Also, bonded hollow points are a wonderful thing. Don't bother alternating rounds when you can get hollow points that penetrate hard and soft barriers very well and still offer good terminal performance, even after penetrating the barrier.

Of course, as the saying goes, "amateurs talk caliber, professionals discuss tactics". Figuring out how to stay alive and get hits on the target is worth so much more then worrying about which caliber is best. If people spent as much time training with their guns and learning about proper use of cover, shooting while moving, and drawing/shooting quickly as they do worrying about which caliber is best, there wouldn't be so many people who can't hit their target.

Glenn

what should my next handgun be?