Hollywood_North GT

"You're right BC_Shelby, I don't want to sit here and listen to you try and force your own OPINIONS on a subject down everyones throat." Of course you do, or you wouldn't take the time to reply.

Obfuscation is a poor substitute for reality. Go back and reread my posts. It's not MY opinion, it's the opinion of the majority of buyers who are determining Toyota and Ford's fates, respectively.

And right now, Toyota is winning and Ford is losing. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Zastava_101

I used to get gas mileage that Ford advertised Mustang for. But since begining of this summer, gas mileage just kept being worse and worse.

mustang_sallad

If its getting worse and worse, it sounds like a case of you starting to pay attention to it, trying to do something that'll help which is actually making it worse, and then keep trying harder and harder, while the mileage gets worse and worse....
internal combustion engines get their best efficiency a little higher up in the rev range, i believe, so i think what andy's been saying about letting the engine breathe has some merit. give it a shot and see what happens.
Of course if you let the engine rev at 0rpm and bike around all day, i garanty your personal fuel mileage will go through the roof. Bike to work in the morning on one bowl of corn flakes?? not bad!

Evil_Capri

Please lets keep this civil. We've had these discussions more than a few times on this board and the individuals involved have there respective opinions and said opinions aren't likely to change anytime soon.

All I will say is that I would like to see ALL the automotive industry compete on a level playing field (actually I would like to see this in all industry). I wonder how foreign companies would prosper given the same condidtions that the Big 3 have PUT THEMSELVES in over the last 30 years. (Hindsight is always 20/20, and someone will likely state that Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc. wouldn't PUT THEMSELVES in the same postion as the Big 3.) The writing is on the wall for changing the dynamics of the American industry or get swept back further.

1999 Black 35th GT

No, actually you claiming that you think the Mustang's interior is cheap is your opinion.

You saying that green backlighting went out in the 80's is your opinion.

You claiming that people buy Toyota because they are the best is YOUR opinion.

I've gone back and reread plenty of your post and it seems like you are the one who's not doing all of the reading.

Even with the facts that Lincoln, Ford, And Mercury are right up there with Lexus and Toyota staring you straight in the face FROM JD Power, you still insist that there is this huge gap between them. The difference comes down to symantics plain and simple.

Even with the facts that CR has come out with that Toyota and Lexus have been having major issues with safety and I mean BIG issues you still look at one little part of the story and run with that instead of looking at the big picture. I believe Toyota has been putting out sub-par vehicle for the past 5 years. And please don't tell me that safety does not incorporate into the quality of a vehicle.

To me and a lot of consumers safety is a BIG importance. NADA recently did a huge report on what consumers feel is the most important factor of their vehicle and safety was numero uno.

You read parts of the sources that appeal to you. You need to read the whole thing.

You can have your opinion and I really don't care what you want to believe but you at the end of the day thats all they are... opinions and nothing more.

And as I stated before just because you sell more does not mean you have a better product. If that were the case then GMC would have the best cars out there, McDonalds would make a better burger then a five star steak house, and Wal-Mart would have the best clothing in the world. We all know that all of that is not true whatsoever.

Knight

The problem is that in the 1980s when america was building crap and the japanese were reliable.. now everyone had those car and japanese cars are their comfort zone.

My mom is to afraid to buy anything but a Honda.

She was looking at the Ford Escape and Honda CRV...she test drove both...she said she liked the feel looks and everything better in the Escape...

What did she buy..the CRV...cuase she says she knows it will run without problems and she doesn't know if the Escape will.

TomServo92

This is strictly from my personal experience: the one car that I've owned that had to be taken back to the dealer the most was...drum roll please...an Acura! In fact, it went back triple the number of times any of my Ford's ever did. That being said, the next question is would I buy another Acura (or Honda for that matter)? Sure! Even though I had some problems, it was still a pretty good car, just like the Ford's I've owned. I firmly believe the foreign makes don't have the quality advantage they once had (or it's so insignificant it doesn't matter). Like you said, it's a leftover perception from the 80's.

Zastava_101

I agree with him on that one. Not only its cheap - its one of the ugliest interiors I ever saw in my life (Interiors on 1994-2004 Mustang).



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You claiming that people buy Toyota because they are the best is YOUR opinion.

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Why do they buy Toyotas then? Because they look good? Andy buddy, you know I like Fords, I have 2 of them, and I'm not fan of Toyota. And I'm not saying all this because I want to argue with you or similar reason. Every Toyota except Echo was succes in the United States. Echo is only Toyota in North America that failed and it will be replaced by Yaris next year. Just in the past 2 years 2 cars from Ford failed, one of them will killed in 2007 after only 3 years of production (Freestyle). GM and Ford had few good months of good sales during the summer because of employees discounts; as soon as employees discount was over sales fell down a lot, and trust me, Fusion, no matter how good of a car it might be, won't be able to change that. There is a reason why Japanese cars are selling great even at MSRP and Big 3 have problems with sales even with huge rebates. When I was looking for a truck this past summer, I would've bought Tundra, but Tundra with Extended Cab and 4x4 cost as little as $28,000. I was able to get F-150 with exactly same options for $21,000. If price was same, I wouldn't be driving F-150 now; I would be driving Tundra.

Knight

What!!! I think that the 1994-2004 interiors is one of the best looking ever.

I had a 99 GT and the interior didn't feel cheap at all.

1999 Black 35th GT

Thats okay Zoran. I have no problem you asking me on my position.

From what I am seeing I feel the same way Mark does. Its a left over perception from the 80's and 90's that have people returning. I still think things will change because to me the quality and problems with safety in Toyota are not what the perception claims.

Most people keep their vehicles for 27-32 months. Thats just a national average. It differs from person to person obviously.

Now that being said, the issues that are arising are from the late model imports will ultimately hurt them. They are simply doing what the American companies did, riding on the coat tails on their past products. My opinion and many others is that in time people will start noticing those issues and tend to look elsewhere. Things can't change overnight.

I personally have had about 7 customers trade in their Toyota's for Ford products. Two Camry's, three Tacoma's, a Fourrunner, and a Tundra and thats just my sales. I actually see a lot more import owners turning to Ford than I do other domestic owners switching companies. Again, this is from my experience in my area and I have had other imports from BMW's to Kia traded in.

I think Mark is absolutely right, I don't think the imports have the quality advantage over Ford and most certainly don't have an advantage in safety.

As for the Tundra, you're lucky that you didn't purchase a Tundra. My father in law is constantly "female *******" about issues with it. Remember he had to have the truck taken in twice to re-flash the computer because it was having problems with shift points which are integral when you are towing.

And the Mustang thing, I think the interior of the SN95's were some of the best. Everything in mine is completely solid and really looks great.

Almost forgot, the Freestyle is not going anywhere. Ford never announced (to my knowledge) that it was going to be discontinued. A person from a media source heard about the initial sales being slow and immediatley assumed and proceeded to announce that it would be discontinued. Don't believe a word the media says. When it comes to Ford product info take it from the company only.

1999 Black 35th GT

double post...sorry

Zastava_101

I don't know what may happen in next 5, 10 or 15 years. Big 3s quality might go up and imports quality may go down. Domestic vehicles may have better safety (you know I don't give a darn about that), but when it comes to quality - Japanese are the best. People buy Camry, Corolla, Accord, Civic, Altima ... for their quality. And they pay MSRP. GM and Ford on the other side can't even sell car with huge rebates.
That might change in the future, but for now - that's the way it is.

Knight

I don't beleive people still buy Japanese cars because of quality. (not that they don't have good quality, they do, but so do the US guys.)

I think it is more from 1980's and early 90's mindset. It'll take time but buyers will eventually see that the Domestic cars will last as long as their japanese cars.

Hollywood_North GT

OK, well now I know you're living in a different reality. That was one of the worst interiors in any automobile...anywhere...anytime in history. Acres of junky, creaking plastic with rough-hewn edges and huge panel gaps.

Listen, there are many people who take the Bible at face value when it tells them the earth was created 5000 years ago. Doesn't make it TRUE, just true for them. But science proved - BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT - that the earth is closer to 4 billion years old from geological surveys, carbon dating of fossil records, the discovery of the dinosaurs and other irrefutable scientific processes such as our exploration of the solar system.

The point is, I'm not looking to start a fight with you. If you choose to believe that everything is fine with Ford, that the company's quality and features are as good or better than the imports, and that Toyota quality is going downhill, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

But sales figures are indisputable, and while Toyota gains record profits, Ford and GM (moreso GM) are in very serious T-R-O-U-B-L-E. And there's a reason for it. And I hate it. And I think the American auto industry dropped the ball in the '70s. And I think that as many gains as it's making, it may already be too late. And I hope to god I'm dead wrong, cause in case you didn't guess from my avatar, I'm a Ford fan.

I'm also a realist.

Zastava_101

Amen.

Zastava_101

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Hollywood_North GT

Yeah, they're in desperate straights all right.

It's a combination of factors. We sit on our laurels and allow ourselves to fall behind technologically. We refuse to fundamentally alter the way we build cars on this continent (from the UAW, to supply chain and inventory management, to automation, to quality control, etc, etc, etc).

Also, in the case of Ford, the company has got to start taking chances. The Fusion - while not a bad car (and a definite improvement) - doesn't go far enough. They're still playing "catch the imports" with that car, which is even designed to emulate the design of a Japanese sedan, with a 427 font end tacked on.

What Ford SHOULD have done, was build the gall darned 427 just as we saw the concept. It worked for Chrysler: it's called the 300. And it's enjoying record sales and critical success. Why? Because Chrysler decided to take a chance and build a car that had uniquely American design heritage with world class build quality; and now Chrysler is the ONLY American automaker turning any kind of a profit.

If Ford had actually built the 427, it would have been a runaway hit; it was an AWESOME design that recalled what was best about the old Galaxy 500 and LTD.

Instead we got the 500 and the Fusion. Pleasant, ho-hum import-wannabes that are STILL playing catch-up.

I don't know what's wrong with Ford. They need to understand that it's time to take some chances with passenger cars - their bread and butter - not just supercars like the GT. I don't know if it's fogeyism at the top, a lack of long-term vision, or logistical and monetary limitations tied to out-of-date manufacturing philosophies, but the outlook is certainly bleak.

Anyone remember when we used to build cameras and electronics in North America? Good stuff, too. By the late '50s and early '60s you weren't buying Kodak or RCA or Motorola or GE or Electrohome anymore. You were buying Nikon and Pentax and Sony and Pioneer, etc, etc. We gave up that industry; let it slide right into the hands of the Japanese. It feels like we're about to do the same thing with our automobile industry. And we have no-one to blame but ourselves.

As we launch off the starting line, the Japanese are already in the home stretch to the finish line.

mustang_sallad

bah! uniquely american...






I think ford needed to make the 500 and freestyle look cooler. If they had done that, i don't think we'd be complaining at all. If those two were as interesting as the fusion, design-wise and powertrain-wise, ford'd be sittin' alright. They'd still need to convince people with set opinions to give their cars a chance again though, probably through aggressive pricing like their doing on the fusion. They should just hurry up with popping that 3.5 liter into the 500, give it a quick refresh to make it a bit more interesting to the eyes, and they've got a solid car. Not ground breaking... no... but honestly, i think that 300 is gonna be a real fad. While something like the fusion is a bit more subtle, it probably won't get tired so quickly. The 300 is so in your face and awkward, i think we'll see a pretty significant drop off in sales. Sure the 500 is pretty boring, but i can't even imagine getting tired of seeing it. Its just... classy, its like a regular good looking guy wearing a regular grey suit or something, i dunno.
And ya, it may already be obvious, but in my opinion, looks are pretty much all that matters. Other things count to, like the actual driving characteristics, and falling-apart-ness and reputation, but I think about 75% of what determines whether a car (or pretty much any other object you could buy) will succeed or not is how the thing looks.
Maybe car magazine guys, or people on sites like this care about more important things, but the vast majority of people couldn't care less about slalom speeds and panel gaps. They just wanna look good to the people around them!

1999 Black 35th GT

I'm sorry but that to me was a great interior. I haven't had one issue with mine. They were a vast improvement over the past models. That aside...

I think you are still insisting on looking at sales as the only driving point to your argument. They are riding on the coat tails of their success. The playing ground for the quality is a completely even one.

Your example of the bible is perfect BC-Shelby, people are taking the false information (in my opinion) that the Japanese build a higher quality car at face value and not looking at the whole picture.

I agree that I would have loved to see the 427 concept produced as it was but its not realistic. While you and I would have been interested, plain and simple the car would have been a flop. You can't justify a 427 cu in. V10 in a sedan to the general public. That would have been a shot in the foot by making that car.

I also hate the way the sales are going but I'm doing my part in trying to change that by educating the common customer how far along Ford has come and the issues that arising from the imports.

I don't deny nor disagree that the import sales are better, this is true. But again, things cannot change overnight or even over a year. But I just don't see the quality over the american automakers. Thats just my opinion.

I really don't think its too late at all. This was the same mistake the Big 3 made in the 70's and 80's, they thought it was too late for the imports to make any sort of impact on their sales and it bit them in the rear. But you would think that Toyota and the rest of them would learn from others mistakes but they are doing exactly the same darn thing. The old saying stands, if you don't educate people, history will repeat itself and it certainly seems from the stance now that Toyota is setting themselves up for a big fall.

I'm also a realist and it seems as if reality has not yet bitten Toyota but it is poising for its strike.

Again, I have to agree with Mark, Jason and Knight, I don't think the have any advantage whatsoever in regards to quality and safety.

Zoran, you may not find the safety important but NADA concluded that the general public does, which is not a good thing for the imports.

Last year price was number one but it has since fallen to number 16 out of 25 on the most important features of a car.

In regards to the articles you've posted Zoran, it takes time to rebuild and in order to rebuild you must spend money. Ford is actually taking the time and the hit to improve quality whereas on the other hand Toyota has the tendency to ignore issues. (They are notorious along with Mitsubishi with waiting until the govenrment gets involved, you know that from the pages and pages of info I posted for you before.) I'm not going to go back and waste the time to repost it all but you can look it up if you would like. You of all people know they are notorious for ignoring their problems.

Again, change does not happen overnight.

Zastava_101

Mitsubishi was never on top like Toyota is now. Like I said, I don't know what may and will happen in the future. I hope you're right when you said that Ford better than now . But for now - Toyota is waaaaaaay in front of Ford. Maybe Ford have better safety ratings, but if safety features are such a big deal to people - people would be buying Big 3 vehicles. You may never be in a accident in your life, but if cars have problems with engine (many Fords can't last over 100,000-150,000 miles without any problems), those problems are gonna catch you sooner or later.