mustang_sallad

Here andy, this one's for you:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0...toyo-359513.htm

I see where they're coming from. I mean sure they're going ahead with a lot of good new technology, but they certainly don't have qualms about going after the SUV and full size pick up market. If they were this perfect, environmentally conscious company rather than just another profit driven corporation, they woulda just not made big trucks and suffered the consequences.

GirchyGirchy

That's a stupid article. Way to go after one of the automotive companies at the forefront of realistic technology designed to cut down on emissions and fuel usage. They should instead whine about those automakers spending so much time on fuel cell vehicles - without a revolutionary way to extract hydrogen efficiently, they're nothing but a pipe dream.

They should be lauded to bringing hybrid technology to the most popular market niche. Ford came first, but Toyota brought more.

Here's some of their drivel: "Fugere also criticized Toyota's hybrid SUVs, the Highlander Hybrid and the Lexus RX400h, saying their fuel economy isn't much better than their non-hybrid counterparts"

Allright, Fugere, let's look at this with numbers. Compare the mileage ratings for the V6 Highlander AWD, 18/24, to those of the Hybrid Highlander AWD, which is similar in power: 31/27. This is a full 72% improvement for city driving! The 12.5% improvement for highway driving isn't too bad, either. It's also about a second faster from 0-60.

That's even better mileage than the AWD 4-cylinder's, which is 21/25. Mileage increases for the Lexus RX400h versus the RX330 are similar.

They're just looking to complain about something, and they have no idea what they're talking about. What do they want, an instant miracle?

mustang_sallad

ya, i think they're female ******* a bit much too. But don't go raggin' on the car companies that are developing fuel cell cars. Believe, I know what you're talking about. In fact i did a research project last year and my presentation was basically saying hydrogen ain't ready, spend the money on hybrids. I mean, Ahnold and George bragging about their refueling stations and stuff... they don't really understand the situation at all, that's for sure. But it is a realistic goal. There are definite possibilities for extracting hydrogen efficiently. I saw a talk given by David Marks, the head of MIT's laboratory for energy and the environment (he's a cool guy, quietly admitted to owning an 82 Eldorado that he doesn't use for often...). He was talking about this concept where you could use nuclear energy directly to extract hydrogen from water, instead of using nuclear energy to generate electricity and use the electricity for hydrolysis which is very inefficient. He didn't go into details at all, but it definitely sounds interesting.
Either way, clean and sustainable hydrogen ain't just a pipe dream, so while all those issues are being worked out, might as well get the car companies working on all the issues at their end of the spectrum.

While i find that environmental group a tad on the rediculous side, I'm happy someone's calling attention to the fact that Toyota ain't just this beautiful angel that causes no harm whatsoever to the planet...

1999 Black 35th GT

LOL Thanks Jeff

I do understand the point they are making about Toyota not being as perfect as they pose to be in the hybrid ads that they play on TV. (I can't stand those, they are really pathetic). And I do agree that it should be brought to the publics attention on that issue but on the other hand this Eco group complains way too much about the technology. The fact is its still in its infancy.

I must say that while hybrid technology is wonderful I still think its great that Ford and some of the other companies are still focusing on gasoline technology. For example, the new 4.0 V6 in the Explorer meets ULEV II standards! If we don't focus on the gasoline engines and simply on the hybrid technology then its just going to make the pollution issue worse by ignoring it.

mustang_sallad

true, but really the best thing would be a ULEV II that shuts off at idle and recoops braking energy.

GirchyGirchy

But then what do you do with the nuclear waste? From what I understand, electrolysis is a somewhat power-intensive process, so there's going to be a lot of crap left over from the nuclear power.

I don't watch TV, so I haven't seen the Toyota ads you all are referring to. Either way they're doing more good for the environment than the Big Three.

What Kona do you have? I want their new 29er Unit...what a tasty frame.

1999 Black 35th GT

Actually they're really not doing as much as they would leave you to believe. Thats the point that this Bluewater group is making.

The ad basically consist of a narrator saying how much Toyota is doing to help you live and how their cars are protecting the enviroment.

Ford and the rest of the Big 3 have met the requirements posed by Californian legislation.

The thing that these people are so ticked about is that Toyota reneged on an agreement that they had with them. The hybrid SUV's that Toyota has out really don't get that much more gas mileage than the gasoline counterparts whatsoever. Thats the point thats being made.

GirchyGirchy

My point is that, since I haven't seen the ads, I don't know what they're leading me to believe. I just know they were one of the first companies out with a hybrid and have worked hard to improve upon the technology, expanding it to SUVs and luxury sedans along with their mainstream cars. All I know is what I personally read and see, not advertising hype.


Meeting the requirements is one thing - voluntarily putting out new technology to decrease emissions and increase fuel economy is another. They're definitely getting better, but Honda and Toyota are ahead, IMO.


Read my first post. Look at the numbers. So you're saying 72% and 12.5% gains in fuel economy (with a significant increase in performance, too) isn't "that much more gas mileage?" I don't agree with that.

Of course, that's going with EPA numbers, but the vehicles I've driven have all matched or exceeded rated fuel economy.

mustang_sallad

Nuclear power ain't perfect, but at some point we have to see which will cause the least damage. Nuclear waste and its disposal is probably a bit too complicated an issue to deal with on "themustangsource"... lol... Basically my point is that, its not just closed, end of discussion, we'll never be able to use hydrogen as a viable and sustainable way to store energy. I'm saying there are many problems, many hurdles, but if you went back a hundred years and told some guy to fly to the moon, or calculate pie to 12 million digits or whatever we're at, he'd probably be telling you it can't be done.



off topic:
My Kona was once upon a time a lowly Chromoly framed Hahana, bottom of the line. I've since spent hundreds or thousands (not thousands, definitely under 2 grand) upgrading just about every piece on that bike (everything except the shifters... lousy pooers, they're covered in duct tape at this point). But i've got a five inch fork off an old Stinky, some beefy wheels and fat tires, avid brakes (not discs yet...), LX crankset,..... i've basically replaced every piece that i've broken, which is just about everything. I was on the verge of buying my friends Kula frame for very cheap, but i figure I'll wait till i get a really nice new frame before i ditch my baby. The frame is the SOUL!

1999 Black 35th GT

When you see tha ads it will make more sense. Its a recent one. I see it a lot on the basic cable channels.

You're right in respects to EPA wise gains but this group is claiming that the real world gains are very poor. Its to be expected that you won't get exactly the EPA gains unless you have taken a class on how to drive a hybrid to full efficiency (which Ford offers) but the numbers being claimed and the numbers being achieved apparently are way off.

As far as voluntarily putting out new technology, well thats a step in the right direction that a lot of companies are doing including Ford. But the technology needs to work efficiently to be worth while.

Remember, Ford is one of the few companies with a new plant that is going to be very ecologically friendly

mustang_sallad

ya andy, i heard about that, do you have any more info on that? about the plant i mean. I saw it mentionned in an article on detnews a while ago, but couldn't find any more info.

Hollywood_North GT

Did I miss something here? Who said that Toyota was an angelic company not harming the planet?

They're the number two automaker in the world and most of their vehicles are still gas-powered. Of course they're harming the planet.

I think hydrogen is the future; I really do. We just have to solve the extraction efficiency and safety problems associated with it first.

But I think BMW's approach with a hydrogen internal combustion engine is the answer, NOT fuel cells: "What made this vehicle particularly interesting was its ability to change from gasoline power to liquid hydrogen with the flip of a switch. The car holds 80 liters of gasoline and 140 liters of liquid hydrogen for use in the 5.4-liter V12 internal combustion engine." Read more.

And remember, in May 1961 Kennedy said the US would send a man to the moon within a decade, and while most people though it was just a science fiction pipe dream, America did it. The point is that this is well within our ability now...we just need the will to do it.

mustang_sallad

The hydrogen powered IC engine is the perfect stepping stone between what we have now and where we're headed. Both mazda and ford have working examples too actually, mazda in the RX-8 and ford with some E-450 shuttle buses. They also probably appeal most to people on a forum like this, cause we still get to talk about V8s and V12s and bore and stroke, and i suppose superchargers and turbochargers...
I think fuel cells are definitely the end result though, as boring as they may seem to piston heads.

Hollywood_North GT

I respectfully disagree. Fuel cells have too many inherent problems: lack of power, lack of range, excessive weight of the cells, etc. Ballard has been at this for years and STILL hasn't fundamentally solved these problems.

I believe a form of ICE that is refuelable with hydrogen is the only way hydrogen power will enter the mass market.

Zastava_101

Don't you people ever get tired trying to prove Toyota's weakest points? I know they have it, every car company does, but why is everybody trying to prove Toyota's problems ONLY instead of other Japanese and European competiton?

Hollywood_North GT

Because people are angry that a Japanese automaker is making world record profits while Ford keeps losing hundreds of millions of dollars each quarter.

So they take their frustration out on Toyota.

Zastava_101

Fair enough.

1999 Black 35th GT

Actually, that has nothing to do with it at all. I just don't like their business ethics whatsoever. With all the crap they pulled with the Emergency services I just had my fill of them. They are one of the most deceptive companies around in my opinion and I like to express my distaste for how they operate.

But you assumed that it was money and you know what assuming does... I makes an... well you can fill in the rest

There are a lot of companies that I don't like. I'm not fond of Daimler Chrysler whatsoever right now. I don't really like their vehicles and I especially don't like Iacocca's mangagement skills either.

Zastava_101

But why Toyota only? I never heard you taking bad stuff about other Japanese and European imports? I don't like them neither, but I do have a lot of respect for them, especially Toyota.

1999 Black 35th GT

Okay, okay... I'll pick on other companies too just to be fair.

You are right, I do tend to pick on them alot. It's just a little pet peeve of mine. I will try to be more fair along the board.

Now, lets dig up some dirt on... oh lets say... Mitsubishi I really don't like them at all either. I can't stand the Eclipse or Evo.