Mustang Fanatic.

I sure hope you're right, but given Ford's/HTT's rather dismissive and condescending statements regarding IRS and its proponents, I am not quite so optimistic. But perhaps the appearances of the Challenger and Camaro will slap down of that whiny, pandering hubris and replace it with a competitive can-do, will-deliver on time, under weight under budget spirit instead (fingers crossed).

Instead of blather about "IRS snobs," "too heavy," "it'll cost a trillion dollars," "can't do this because...," blah, blah, blah, I'd rather hear:

"IRS to chase down those pesky M3's up in the mountains? No problem, I'm sure you'll find that extra $750 and 50lbs more than worth it."

"HIDs for that midnight high-speed runs to Vegas? Absolutly, just check right here sir."

"Snug Recaros to hold you tight in those tight switchbacks? Sure, would you like those in black, red or tan?"

I just hate it how Detroit, be it IRS, HIDs, Hybrids or whatever else alwyas seem to have to be dragged whining and moaning to offer what they should have from the get go.

 

wow, must resist picking up the blue book...

 

That looks great! I'm still holding out for the Shelby but it will be nice to see a few of these out there. Now if they came out with a Cuda version I would definitely have to think it over.

 

uh-oh, I see more "Mustang/IRS" comments again! j/k I'm all for IRS. What bothers me about Ford's and HTT's statements is basically a "can't do" attitude. They need to put some real engineers/enthusiasts with a "can do" attitude on the team. I figure engineers love a challenge - tell 'em they can't design an IRS that weighs less than X amount while costing less than Y amount to produce. I think they'd jump at the chance to prove otherwise. BTW, I think the Challenger would look best in black.

 

Troublemaker.

 

Perhaps you hadn't heard: Ford is in financial hot water...no money for IRS and other goodies in a Mustang GT at its current price point.

Or put another way: When Road & Track asked Caroll Shelby if an IRS would have improved the handling and overall performance of the GT500, Caroll replied...

"BULL!"

Caroll knows everything.

 

And Ford will boil like an egg if they don't figure out how to put out better product at the Mustang's price point. Otherwise, the competition will eat it alive, content wise, and then only firesale rebates will move 'em off the floor. The Mustang has enjoyed a one actor show for many years now, but those salad days will soon be coming to an end. Ford will actually have to compete, competitively, whence the Challenger and Camaro roll into town. And if Ford doesn't put up in terms of necessary engineering and development largess, then the Stang will quickly be put out to pasture by those manufacturers who do.

Ford has an unfortunate history of letting its various excellent performance cars of various sorts wither on the vine while the competition surpasses them -- Probe, Cougar (well maybe), Countour SVT, Taurus SHO (got fat and soft), etc.

A good product launch is but that, a good product launch. The Mustang's enjoyed that, certainly, but there's still much track to be run in this race, with fresh competitors joining in, so now's not the time to slow down in a couch of complacency. There's a lot of great potential in the Stang, both under the hood and under the fenders, should Ford get and stay serious about staying ahead of the packand investing appropriately in real engineering R&D, as opposed to cheesy ads and rebates..

 

Yes, Ford is in financial hot water, but GM is in deep doo(X2). IF (big if) they decide to actually produce the Camaro and make it like the "leaked" concept pix, it will have IRS. So I don't see how Ford can make excuses since the proposed competition will compete at a similar price point while promising more power and sophistication. At this point, even the Explorer and upcoming SportTrac have IRS. What gives? :scratch: Since, I no longer plan on getting a Mustang, maybe I'll enjoy watching Ford suffer for being complacent and watching the dealers suffer for being so greedy. The "dark side" is starting to look better... :jedi:

 

This thing looks good....however a possible $40K for a 6.1L 425hp car....decisions decisions.

 

My out-on-the-limb prognostication will be:

250hp 3.5L V6 Challenger (base) - $22K
350hp 5.7 V8 Hemi Challernger R/T - $27K
450hp 6.1 V8 Hemi Challenger SRT-8 - $32K

All of the above with IRS, the latter two with a 6-spd MTX option.

Suggestion: even dyed-in-the-wool GT500 mavens may want to wait before plunking down any deposits until these challengers role out and start putting a little (lot) of competitive pressure on the GT500, with predictable effects on its pricing.

 

it looks wicked!!

I dont think the interior looks that bad

 

IF - and it's a big IF - you want to wait till 2009 to get into one of these beasts. And at that point, the GT500 will have come and gone already.

Given the competition's use of IRS (virtually inevitable, if for no other reason than to offer a competitive advantage over the Mustang), it's hard to imagine Ford will keep offering V8 Stangs with SRAs in them - that would be marketing suicide.

At which point, it will be interesting to see what excuse Ford trots out for why they're suddenly switching over to IRS after four years of trumpeting all the "advantages" of SRA. I suspect they'll be caught in a hypocritical connundrum which the marketing department will just cleverly "spin" somehow. And I wonder what Carroll Shelby's official line will be then...after all his recent remarks about how SRA offers as good a solution in the GT500 as any IRS setup would have.

 

We are all forgetting something re: SRA. They are much easier to mod than IRS, and any drag gearhead will tell you that. It's exactly what HTT said as far as 'why' the SRA. And re: the price points of the Camaro and Challanger, just look at what GM and D-C is offering currently to answer that question. Their cars in the same segment have always been more expensive (albeit $3-4K) than Ford's, and I don't see any indication that that will change. But your die-hard bowtie and Mopar fans will buy them anyway, but not in the numbers the Mustang is moving. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

I think you have overlooked the fact that the Challenger is a just concept car and the official word currently is that the Challenger is not going to production(which may change). A real Camaro concept ,other than rather old looking leaked photos of a rough clay model which may or may not resemble the real concept car, has not even been seen by anyone in the general public yet.

So far, the competition is "vaporware", yet you're already saying the competition will "eat the Mustang alive"?!? People are already speculating on how awesome the Challenger and Camaro will be, but Mopar and GM have not even officially announced that they will even be produced!!

The competition, if they are produced(that's a big "if" for the Camaro due to GM's financial problems) won't even come to market until probably 2009...

I don't think Ford will let the Mustang die, it's the one of the only two nameplates they have (Mustang and F-150) that are legendary. They put a lot of effort into the '05 Mustang. They could have just reskinned the fox chassis again, since there was no competition, but they did a whole new chassis and body.

 

i would rather see them spend money on weight reduction then IRS... but thats just me.

 

I think Dodge is just being a bit, and predictably, coy regarding the Challenger concept. With any concept, you'll of course say its but an idea and no real chance of production. That way, if it does bomb, you have a graceful exit ("we were just testing some design ideas is all") whereas if it gets great reviews, you act all surprised and trot out a production version in response to your customers demands ("gee, what a plugged in and responsive company they are"). I imagine the Challenger is further along to actual production, which would only be derailed by a really bad customer reaction (doubtful) or some other major snafu of some sort.

The Camaro is probably a bit more in the "toe the water" stage, but there's probably some substantial momentum behind it already (leaked images and CAD/CAMS show more than a little engineering development work already for a pie-in-the-sky concept).

Certainly DC and GM have not been oblivious to the Mustang's run away success and sales. GM especially needs something, anything to perk up their showroom floors and a hot new Camaro could generate just such a buzz, and of course, profit laden full price sales rather than those bribe-, err, rebate-evicerated sales profits of late.

DC has been on a roll of late, what with their 300C, Charger and Magnums among others. Why not take this already developmed platform and drivetrains and quickly and relatively cheaply mod them into a 2+2 Pony Car to get in on the Stang's success. With economies of scale in terms of platform/drivetrain development, engineering and production costs, DC ought to be able to offer a significant content/value advantage over the Stang and its single model, bespoke platform, which forced them into some obvious skimping (live axle, materials, lack of features) to meet thier low price point goals. GM, with their widely shared upcoming Zeta platform, will enjoy similar economies of scale and whatnot with the Camaro.

Of course, how Ford does react to all this will be critical. Will they be fat, complacent and arrogant, mounting just a few cheap and easy trim and minor content changes they hope to market as some big deal? Or will they, now that the Stang has reaped huge profits to pay off development costs, turn around, reinvest and offer some substantial mid-model upgrates? Their recent history points, sadly, to the former (letting promising models essentially whither on the vine), but perhaps they will be wiser in long-term perspective given how badly the former option has played out financially.

 

I agree, of the two, I think the Challenger has the best chance of going to production.

Quote:

Originally posted by rhumb@December 29, 2005, 12:50 PM
The Camaro is probably a bit more in the "toe the water" stage, but there's probably some substantial momentum behind it already (leaked images and CAD/CAMS show more than a little engineering development work already for a pie-in-the-sky concept).

I have the feeling the pictures of the Camaro clay were from around the time of the
GTO concept (not the Holden Monaro, but the orange one that wasn't a driveable car). I believe this was around 2000? GM probably "leaked" these on the internet to see what the reaction was. Rumours are flying that there will be a Camaro concept at upcoming NAIAS this month. We'll see if it shows up and how much it will resemble the clay. As for production? If GM has the funds, we might see it...

<!--QuoteBegin-rhumb@December 29, 2005, 12:50 PM
Certainly DC and GM have not been oblivious to the Mustang's run away success and sales. GM especially needs something, anything to perk up their showroom floors and a hot new Camaro could generate just such a buzz, and of course, profit laden full price sales rather than those bribe-, err, rebate-evicerated sales profits of late.

DC has been on a roll of late, what with their 300C, Charger and Magnums among others. Why not take this already developmed platform and drivetrains and quickly and relatively cheaply mod them into a 2+2 Pony Car to get in on the Stang's success. With economies of scale in terms of platform/drivetrain development, engineering and production costs, DC ought to be able to offer a significant content/value advantage over the Stang and its single model, bespoke platform, which forced them into some obvious skimping (live axle, materials, lack of features) to meet thier low price point goals. GM, with their widely shared upcoming Zeta platform, will enjoy similar economies of scale and whatnot with the Camaro.

Of course, how Ford does react to all this will be critical. Will they be fat, complacent and arrogant, mounting just a few cheap and easy trim and minor content changes they hope to market as some big deal? Or will they, now that the Stang has reaped huge profits to pay off development costs, turn around, reinvest and offer some substantial mid-model upgrates? Their recent history points, sadly, to the former (letting promising models essentially whither on the vine), but perhaps they will be wiser in long-term perspective given how badly the former option has played out financially.

Quoted post

[/quote]
True, Ford just let the Lincoln LS die without any promotion, but I believe that might have been due to executive politics. Wasn't the LS developed during Nasser's time?

But Mustang however has always been updated, although some of the updates were minor. Even though the Foxes in the 80's had the same basic body, they received some sort of upgrade almost every two years after '83. The fox-based SN95's had one major restyle after four years, and engine and chassis upgrades over the years.

Mustang and F150 are the two nameplates Ford has that still carry some prestiege with the public, so I doubt they will neglect the Mustang.

 

NEW PICS!

AUTOMOBILE MAG

 

Looks awesome!!! If only it would make it to production as it sits.

 

HOLY FRACK!

<thinks of changing name to BC_Challenger>