Death of Ford?
6/2/05, 02:57 PM
#22
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Originally posted by Fordracing200@June 2, 2005, 3:39 PM
Andy, a bad time to tell u i just Fed-Ex'd u a Prius Poster
Andy, a bad time to tell u i just Fed-Ex'd u a Prius Poster
LOL
Is it a poster of one getting crushed in a car crusher cause thats okay!
6/2/05, 04:32 PM
#23
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For all you wanting to kill of Mercury...thats not going to happen. if Mercury went away, it take Lincoln right along with it. Dealerships wouldnt be able to stay in business just selling Lincolns.
The thing thats killing Ford and Gm right now is that their SUV's arent selling, which made up like 60-70% of Ford's sales in years Prior..thats why your seeing the Dramtic numbers that are on the news. Ford will hopefully turn this around with the upcoming Fusion and other CD3 based products that will replace the lost sales in SUV's with more fuel effecent CUV's
The thing thats killing Ford and Gm right now is that their SUV's arent selling, which made up like 60-70% of Ford's sales in years Prior..thats why your seeing the Dramtic numbers that are on the news. Ford will hopefully turn this around with the upcoming Fusion and other CD3 based products that will replace the lost sales in SUV's with more fuel effecent CUV's
6/2/05, 05:58 PM
#24
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The marauder is sweet too, Mercury is not going away, thats not a smart idea.
Andy, i have a extra FFW poster i was gonna send you seriously, i got it at the show, if i figure out how to get a label on the poster tube i would send ya it, thats if u want it, pm me with a answer.
Andy, i have a extra FFW poster i was gonna send you seriously, i got it at the show, if i figure out how to get a label on the poster tube i would send ya it, thats if u want it, pm me with a answer.
6/2/05, 06:49 PM
#25
Originally posted by racerx@June 2, 2005, 11:27 AM
Bring some of the cars from Ford Australia over here.
Bring some of the cars from Ford Australia over here.
Right!! Cars like these!!!!
6/3/05, 08:53 AM
#27
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Originally posted by 1999 Black 35th GT@June 2, 2005, 12:25 PM
No offense but to me toyota will always = JUNK!!
IF they even bring out those cars, which will probably be b u t t ugly anyway, they'll be so overpriced they won't even sell!
Look at the SC430's!!! 63k for a car that looks like a camry with Rosie O'Donnell's **** glued to the back!!!
You could have 2 NEW GT's for that!!!
And I don't trust toyota and their hybrids. They can't even get them right!! The Priuses are stalling while driving!!!
JUNK I say JUNK!!!
No offense but to me toyota will always = JUNK!!
IF they even bring out those cars, which will probably be b u t t ugly anyway, they'll be so overpriced they won't even sell!
Look at the SC430's!!! 63k for a car that looks like a camry with Rosie O'Donnell's **** glued to the back!!!
You could have 2 NEW GT's for that!!!
And I don't trust toyota and their hybrids. They can't even get them right!! The Priuses are stalling while driving!!!
JUNK I say JUNK!!!I'm a ford guy myself, dude. but you can't deny that toyota's obviously the best automaker right now. not like, the best, as in, "i want a toyota", but best as in, they're the best at being an automaker. They're doing everything right. They're definitely gonna become the #1 automaker very soon, they've already passed ford.
Check out this article:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-202894.htm
Toyota is the number one company in terms of how long it takes them to build a car, and they also posted the biggest improvement in this area as well.
not only that. they're selling more cars, and they make more than twice as much profit off of each car they sell than ford.
I'm a huge ford fan (obviously, since i'm on this site), and i think that they're at the start of a turn around. Its awesome that, while GM keeps saying, "we have faith in the prolonged popularity of SUVs and so we're gonna redesign all of them instead of our cars cause nobody actually cares about gas prices blah blah blah"
Ford is a bit more reasonable saying "The redesigned Explorer should help sales out for sure, but we realize that we're never gonna see 400,000 Explorers a year ever again, and that we need to invest in cars" and that's exactly what they're doing. They're being smart, and this gives me hope that they're gonna be back on track in a couple years.
But i still can't deny that Toyota is just the model of an ideal company at the top of their game. And look at how they're offering to help out GM, offering to share their hybrid technology, get them back in the game. Talk about good sportsmanship.
There've been a few cases of stalling priuses, but on the whole they're doing really well. Just check out the long term test results in any of the big magazines, or check out the consumer reports stuff. In fact, they say that since the gas engine is on less of the time, there's less wear on the engine, so it'll last even longer.
You say these new hybrids on the way will be over priced and won't sell. Have you read anything about how much people are paying just to get these hybrids. Waiting lists for hybrid models are so darn long, people are even paying MRSP for second hand models! Some guy payed a 200$ deposit to be second in line for a hybrid highlander at his dealer, decided the wait was gonna be too long and sold his spot for 500 bucks on ebay.
Demand for hybrids is as strong as for the mustang. Or rather, i guess i should say demand/supply, cause ya, total sales are lower than the mustang obviously. But the point is, they will sell as many as they can make.
But ya, that SC430 has gotta be one of the worst cars ever! I'll take the two stangs please.
6/3/05, 09:27 AM
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Toyota were also the first car company in the world to use KanBan parts ordering. That means that they only have stock for the vehicles they are building that day, overnight, the next days raw materials are delivered. It takes about 20 years to set up a good kanban system (there are hundreds of factors to consider), but when set up, reduces warehousing costs to virtually zero, raw material obselence, it is all stuff that adds to bottom line profits.....
6/3/05, 10:02 AM
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I just can't jusify buying their vehicles myself. They've been declining in safety lately from what I see. I guess the thing that really turned me off to them was how long it took them to release information on the prius for extrication. It just rubbed me the wrong way. That and my friend has (or had, don't know if he still has it) an echo. The brakes went three times, including the master cylinder, and the trans gave him major problems. It wouldn't shift out of second gear. My dad also had bad experiences with a tercel and camry. I guess from seeing all this I just don't even want to bother with them. This 880k vehicle recall isn't looking good for them either. I think toyota is setting themselves up for a fall in the future, but thats just me.
I think the best and most reliable automaker right now is Subaru. I think CR rated them best too.
My favorite however will always be Ford!!
And I definetley agree with you that Ford is on the turn around and will striking back very soon. My father in law doesn't but he's just ignorant. he knows nothing about vehicles
I do respect your opinions though and appreciate the article. Its good to learn!
I think the best and most reliable automaker right now is Subaru. I think CR rated them best too.
My favorite however will always be Ford!!
And I definetley agree with you that Ford is on the turn around and will striking back very soon. My father in law doesn't but he's just ignorant. he knows nothing about vehicles I do respect your opinions though and appreciate the article. Its good to learn!
6/3/05, 10:06 AM
#30
Shelby GT500 Member
Great article by Ed Wallace
Source:http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/...e/11745990.htm
Source:http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/...e/11745990.htm
Then and Now
Not only is the world different now, but what we know of what’s past is often wrong
By Ed Wallace
Special to the Star-Telegram
"It is unfair for us to complain about American jobs in the automotive industry being outsourced to other countries when Japanese, German and Korean automakers are outsourcing their formerly home-done jobs to the United States. There are now 23 foreign-owned car and parts plants operating in North America, and more are coming."
“The biggest drain on GM’s profitability is their welfare system. It is their health care obligations and their pension obligations. The SUV is not killing them, and don’t let the media tell you that — and don’t let a bunch of knucklehead, numbskull, ignoramus activists in the media tell you this — because that’s not what’s causing General Motors’ or Ford’s or Chrysler’s problem.â€
— Rush Limbaugh, earlier this month
It is unfair to discuss what’s said by brethren in radio, without saying that on many issues I’ve agreed with the positions Rush has taken. I could say the same thing about Al Franken or anyone else on talk radio. No one is right all the time, nor are they wrong all the time.
All that said, in the discussion excerpted about the problems facing Detroit, Rush also quoted a column by George Will, whom Rush agreed with, saying that Will had postulated it is only the exorbitant costs for health care and retirement plans that are breaking the banks in Michigan, not lost market share or a reduction of the high gross profits associated with sport utility vehicles. Rush later added that Social Security should be dumped and replaced by the pre-Great Depression plan: self-saved retirement.
Well, the problem with that is history. It tells us that in that period few individuals managed to save a strong nest egg for their retirement, and then they watched it be completely broken and emptied by the Depression. And in the period before 1929, the American middle class was nowhere near as large as it is today. Only a few jobs paid so well that a person could enjoy a reasonable lifestyle and still have enough left of their weekly paycheck to fund retirement.
I would also take exception to anyone’s classifying people who work full-time and receive payment that includes benefits, such as health care and some form of retirement package, as welfare recipients. That being said, let’s discuss what truly ails Detroit.
Rebirth or Reincarnation?
Paul Ingrassia, president of Dow Jones Newswire, wrote in a May 17th Wall Street Journal article that what we are witnessing today is not the death of the American automobile industry, but its rebirth. Ingrassia added that it is unfair for us to complain about American jobs in the automotive industry being outsourced to other countries when Japanese, German and Korean automakers are outsourcing their formerly home-done jobs to the United States. There are now 23 foreign-owned car and parts plants operating in North America, and more are coming.
First, let’s take up the issue of Mr. Will’s column and Rush’s quotes from his show, and why they are inaccurate. Last year General Motors earned $3.9 billion — and GM predicted that its health care costs would rise as much as $1 billion in 2005. Government reimbursement for the new Medicare prescription drug benefits would offset much of this premium increase, so the net effect to GM’s bottom line would be far less than $900 million. Under this simple equation, all other things being equal, General Motors should still be well on the way to earning $3 billion in this fiscal year. Of course, GM posted a $1.1 billion loss in the first quarter. So something else is obviously eating at their profits.
Daimler lost about the same amount of money during that period, but I have yet to see anyone claiming that Mercedes could possibly go out of business. No, in the American press, possible Armageddon scenarios are published daily only because Kirk Kerkorian offered to buy 28 million shares of GM’s outstanding stock. But, when Daimler CDO Bodo Uebber admitted a week ago Saturday that outside and possibly unfriendly hedge fund operators have managed to acquire up to 15% of Daimler’s outstanding shares, not a word was said, no punditry quoted.
Magic Numbers
Now, let’s talk reality. Many of the Japanese importers of automobiles have sold their cars for years without ever once posting a profit on their North American operations. In Mitsubishi’s case, for the period of 1982 to 1997, the company accumulated losses from North American operations totaling $1.7 billion for having had the pleasure of selling their automobiles to you and your neighbors. Acura went over a decade with once turning a net profit here. In fairness, neither of these two firms had but few legacy costs — such as employment benefits — factored into their bottom line. And certainly both companies had huge automotive hits during this period; but selling in North America didn’t make them any money.
So, why did Japanese and Korean automakers decide to enter our market, in many cases knowing that business would be done at a loss for years? It’s the magic of volume production. Because the more cars and trucks any company manufactures, the less each vehicle costs. Last year, when General Motors was running its large SUV plants on overtime, theoretically the cost to produce each vehicle was less than it’s been this year; many SUV plants have been on extended downtime, forcing GM to pay primary earnings to workers while no production was being done. That seriously hurts the gross profit on each vehicle produced.
Additionally, we continue to hear that GM’s costs for health insurance and pension plans are in the neighborhood of $1,500 per car. Again, that figure varies, based on how many cars and trucks GM manufactures in one year. Obviously, if General Motors came up with four new solid-hit vehicles (with volumes in the 250,000 range) in the next couple of years, then GM could amortize its legacy costs over another million units annually, reducing the cost per vehicle dramatically. So, the Japanese in many cases were willing to lose money selling cars here because it increased their overall production, lowering the cost of each vehicle built, which improves the corporation’s bottom line in the long run.
A Million Missing Customers
Also hurting automakers are a couple of other factors, which have apparently escaped those discussing Detroit’s current financial problems. One is the loss of America’s blue-collar middle class; the other is the wage structure of entry-level jobs against the price of new cars today. Over the last 25 years, the United Autoworkers have lost right at one million well-paid members. It’s no stretch of the imagination to believe that most of those members purchased GM, Ford or Chrysler products, which today likely loses those companies at least 200,000 – 250,000 sales a year.
Throw in the loss of jobs in the American parts industry, and in steel or glass manufacturing, and one could easily claim that Detroit, while saving billions in labor costs, has also intentionally eliminated the careers of well over a million former loyal customers.
Finally, for those of us in the Baby Boom generation, let’s take a walk back to 1969, when we were listening to KFJZ’s Larry Shannon spinning the Youngbloods’ “Get Together,†while our younger siblings were driving us nuts with “Sugar, Sugar†by the Archies. We worked at local businesses after school at minimum-wage jobs that earned us $3,380 that year. If that sounds horrible today, one should also remember that a brand-new 1969 Ford Mustang convertible listed for just $2,832. Yes, with no overtime whatsoever, if you worked at a minimum-wage job for 12 months in 1969, you could pay cash for a brand-new car — a Mustang convertible, no less.
Today, working the same 40-hour week at minimum wage, one would earn $10,712 — or about $13,853 short of what you’d need to cruise Camp Bowie in your new ragtop Mustang. (As a point of reference, in 1969 a minimum-wage job amounted to 34.02% of the average family’s income; today a minimum-wage job is just 20.6%.) This alone explains the success of low-cost imports such as Hyundai and Kia.
Get Real, Rush
No one disputes that health care and the costs of the pending Baby Boom retirement are a huge drag on every corporation’s bottom line. But they’re no more costly to GM, Ford and Chrysler than to any other large and long term American corporation who employs people with decent wages and a pre-defined retirement package.
Most assuredly, no one working today would agree that being compensated makes you a welfare recipient. Nevertheless, Detroit’s automakers have lost millions of their former customers, some of whom were their own employees, as our blue-collar middle class has shrunk. Meanwhile, the foreign automakers who own factories here have watched their customer bases expand with their own American employees.
At the same time, no one has considered the fact that as minimum-wage workers in the sixties, our purchasing power was infinitely better than that of those bottom wage earners today, which was the biggest incentive for us to become another generation of car lovers. In the end, we still purchase more cars and trucks today, per family, than we have at any time in American history, save the period of 1973 – 1977. So, all is not lost. Detroit simply needs to create more new product that appeals to the new and more upscale demographic of today’s car buyer.
As for Rush: I admire his accomplishments; and if I made $20 million a year, I wouldn’t need health insurance or Social Security either. But most of those reading this column today do.
Not only is the world different now, but what we know of what’s past is often wrong
By Ed Wallace
Special to the Star-Telegram
"It is unfair for us to complain about American jobs in the automotive industry being outsourced to other countries when Japanese, German and Korean automakers are outsourcing their formerly home-done jobs to the United States. There are now 23 foreign-owned car and parts plants operating in North America, and more are coming."
“The biggest drain on GM’s profitability is their welfare system. It is their health care obligations and their pension obligations. The SUV is not killing them, and don’t let the media tell you that — and don’t let a bunch of knucklehead, numbskull, ignoramus activists in the media tell you this — because that’s not what’s causing General Motors’ or Ford’s or Chrysler’s problem.â€
— Rush Limbaugh, earlier this month
It is unfair to discuss what’s said by brethren in radio, without saying that on many issues I’ve agreed with the positions Rush has taken. I could say the same thing about Al Franken or anyone else on talk radio. No one is right all the time, nor are they wrong all the time.
All that said, in the discussion excerpted about the problems facing Detroit, Rush also quoted a column by George Will, whom Rush agreed with, saying that Will had postulated it is only the exorbitant costs for health care and retirement plans that are breaking the banks in Michigan, not lost market share or a reduction of the high gross profits associated with sport utility vehicles. Rush later added that Social Security should be dumped and replaced by the pre-Great Depression plan: self-saved retirement.
Well, the problem with that is history. It tells us that in that period few individuals managed to save a strong nest egg for their retirement, and then they watched it be completely broken and emptied by the Depression. And in the period before 1929, the American middle class was nowhere near as large as it is today. Only a few jobs paid so well that a person could enjoy a reasonable lifestyle and still have enough left of their weekly paycheck to fund retirement.
I would also take exception to anyone’s classifying people who work full-time and receive payment that includes benefits, such as health care and some form of retirement package, as welfare recipients. That being said, let’s discuss what truly ails Detroit.
Rebirth or Reincarnation?
Paul Ingrassia, president of Dow Jones Newswire, wrote in a May 17th Wall Street Journal article that what we are witnessing today is not the death of the American automobile industry, but its rebirth. Ingrassia added that it is unfair for us to complain about American jobs in the automotive industry being outsourced to other countries when Japanese, German and Korean automakers are outsourcing their formerly home-done jobs to the United States. There are now 23 foreign-owned car and parts plants operating in North America, and more are coming.
First, let’s take up the issue of Mr. Will’s column and Rush’s quotes from his show, and why they are inaccurate. Last year General Motors earned $3.9 billion — and GM predicted that its health care costs would rise as much as $1 billion in 2005. Government reimbursement for the new Medicare prescription drug benefits would offset much of this premium increase, so the net effect to GM’s bottom line would be far less than $900 million. Under this simple equation, all other things being equal, General Motors should still be well on the way to earning $3 billion in this fiscal year. Of course, GM posted a $1.1 billion loss in the first quarter. So something else is obviously eating at their profits.
Daimler lost about the same amount of money during that period, but I have yet to see anyone claiming that Mercedes could possibly go out of business. No, in the American press, possible Armageddon scenarios are published daily only because Kirk Kerkorian offered to buy 28 million shares of GM’s outstanding stock. But, when Daimler CDO Bodo Uebber admitted a week ago Saturday that outside and possibly unfriendly hedge fund operators have managed to acquire up to 15% of Daimler’s outstanding shares, not a word was said, no punditry quoted.
Magic Numbers
Now, let’s talk reality. Many of the Japanese importers of automobiles have sold their cars for years without ever once posting a profit on their North American operations. In Mitsubishi’s case, for the period of 1982 to 1997, the company accumulated losses from North American operations totaling $1.7 billion for having had the pleasure of selling their automobiles to you and your neighbors. Acura went over a decade with once turning a net profit here. In fairness, neither of these two firms had but few legacy costs — such as employment benefits — factored into their bottom line. And certainly both companies had huge automotive hits during this period; but selling in North America didn’t make them any money.
So, why did Japanese and Korean automakers decide to enter our market, in many cases knowing that business would be done at a loss for years? It’s the magic of volume production. Because the more cars and trucks any company manufactures, the less each vehicle costs. Last year, when General Motors was running its large SUV plants on overtime, theoretically the cost to produce each vehicle was less than it’s been this year; many SUV plants have been on extended downtime, forcing GM to pay primary earnings to workers while no production was being done. That seriously hurts the gross profit on each vehicle produced.
Additionally, we continue to hear that GM’s costs for health insurance and pension plans are in the neighborhood of $1,500 per car. Again, that figure varies, based on how many cars and trucks GM manufactures in one year. Obviously, if General Motors came up with four new solid-hit vehicles (with volumes in the 250,000 range) in the next couple of years, then GM could amortize its legacy costs over another million units annually, reducing the cost per vehicle dramatically. So, the Japanese in many cases were willing to lose money selling cars here because it increased their overall production, lowering the cost of each vehicle built, which improves the corporation’s bottom line in the long run.
A Million Missing Customers
Also hurting automakers are a couple of other factors, which have apparently escaped those discussing Detroit’s current financial problems. One is the loss of America’s blue-collar middle class; the other is the wage structure of entry-level jobs against the price of new cars today. Over the last 25 years, the United Autoworkers have lost right at one million well-paid members. It’s no stretch of the imagination to believe that most of those members purchased GM, Ford or Chrysler products, which today likely loses those companies at least 200,000 – 250,000 sales a year.
Throw in the loss of jobs in the American parts industry, and in steel or glass manufacturing, and one could easily claim that Detroit, while saving billions in labor costs, has also intentionally eliminated the careers of well over a million former loyal customers.
Finally, for those of us in the Baby Boom generation, let’s take a walk back to 1969, when we were listening to KFJZ’s Larry Shannon spinning the Youngbloods’ “Get Together,†while our younger siblings were driving us nuts with “Sugar, Sugar†by the Archies. We worked at local businesses after school at minimum-wage jobs that earned us $3,380 that year. If that sounds horrible today, one should also remember that a brand-new 1969 Ford Mustang convertible listed for just $2,832. Yes, with no overtime whatsoever, if you worked at a minimum-wage job for 12 months in 1969, you could pay cash for a brand-new car — a Mustang convertible, no less.
Today, working the same 40-hour week at minimum wage, one would earn $10,712 — or about $13,853 short of what you’d need to cruise Camp Bowie in your new ragtop Mustang. (As a point of reference, in 1969 a minimum-wage job amounted to 34.02% of the average family’s income; today a minimum-wage job is just 20.6%.) This alone explains the success of low-cost imports such as Hyundai and Kia.
Get Real, Rush
No one disputes that health care and the costs of the pending Baby Boom retirement are a huge drag on every corporation’s bottom line. But they’re no more costly to GM, Ford and Chrysler than to any other large and long term American corporation who employs people with decent wages and a pre-defined retirement package.
Most assuredly, no one working today would agree that being compensated makes you a welfare recipient. Nevertheless, Detroit’s automakers have lost millions of their former customers, some of whom were their own employees, as our blue-collar middle class has shrunk. Meanwhile, the foreign automakers who own factories here have watched their customer bases expand with their own American employees.
At the same time, no one has considered the fact that as minimum-wage workers in the sixties, our purchasing power was infinitely better than that of those bottom wage earners today, which was the biggest incentive for us to become another generation of car lovers. In the end, we still purchase more cars and trucks today, per family, than we have at any time in American history, save the period of 1973 – 1977. So, all is not lost. Detroit simply needs to create more new product that appeals to the new and more upscale demographic of today’s car buyer.
As for Rush: I admire his accomplishments; and if I made $20 million a year, I wouldn’t need health insurance or Social Security either. But most of those reading this column today do.
6/3/05, 03:00 PM
#31
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Originally posted by GT98@June 2, 2005, 4:35 PM
For all you wanting to kill of Mercury...thats not going to happen. if Mercury went away, it take Lincoln right along with it. Dealerships wouldnt be able to stay in business just selling Lincolns.
For all you wanting to kill of Mercury...thats not going to happen. if Mercury went away, it take Lincoln right along with it. Dealerships wouldnt be able to stay in business just selling Lincolns.
The entire point is one less marquee, one less set of costs, marketing, VPs and regional managers, etc.
But I agree with the rest of your post (that I didn't quote), the retired auto workers are killing the big 3 with the healthcare packages. They've got to reform.
6/3/05, 03:12 PM
#32
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Originally posted by matic@June 3, 2005, 5:03 PM
Lincoln would take over the market segment vacated by Mercury for the most part. My view is that Ford would keep their segment, and introduce an upmarket line of its own, and then Lincoln would expand their line to come down to meet it.
Lincoln would take over the market segment vacated by Mercury for the most part. My view is that Ford would keep their segment, and introduce an upmarket line of its own, and then Lincoln would expand their line to come down to meet it.
Duh why kill Mercury and then come out with a replacement when you dont need too? Thats stupid!!!
:bang: Dealerships are Lincoln/Mercury. Taking Mercury out of that equation would kill the dealerships off.
6/4/05, 01:40 AM
#33
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Originally posted by 1999 Black 35th GT@June 3, 2005, 11:05 AM
my friend has (or had, don't know if he still has it) an echo. The brakes went three times, including the master cylinder, and the trans gave him major problems. It wouldn't shift out of second gear. My dad also had bad experiences with a tercel and camry. I guess from seeing all this I just don't even want to bother with them. This 880k vehicle recall isn't looking good for them either. I think toyota is setting themselves up for a fall in the future, but thats just me.
my friend has (or had, don't know if he still has it) an echo. The brakes went three times, including the master cylinder, and the trans gave him major problems. It wouldn't shift out of second gear. My dad also had bad experiences with a tercel and camry. I guess from seeing all this I just don't even want to bother with them. This 880k vehicle recall isn't looking good for them either. I think toyota is setting themselves up for a fall in the future, but thats just me.
I mean, i know, this kinda car prolly won't appeal to most of the people on a mustang site. But hey for like 9 grand, its not bad, wheels pushed way out at all corners, tiny but still got lots of space....
anyways...
I grew up with fords ever since i was about 4, and we ditched the toyota corona for a grand marquis wagon. then we got a pontiac wagon, then an LTD wagon (the small one) then a crown vic wagon, and now we've come full circle to another grand marquis wagon (dual exhaust, and now, heavy duty springs and adjustable air shocks!). And let me tell you, we spent thousands every year maintaining these things. There was always something wrong, and there still is. Just yesterday my dad comes in complaining about the check engine light going on, prolly just a glitch with the computer though. But we've had some serious jobs done on all these cars. Meanwhile, my girlfriends parents have two civics, one with well over 350K km on it (that's somewhere over 200K miles, i'm guessing) and they've never had to do anything to the car, besides regular maintenance.
Of course, our fords have always been old cars. We never bought one that was newer than 10 years old, so that might be a factor, don't ya think. i still get the feeling though, that if we could've found japanese equivalents (full size wagons???! ya right), we might've had a bit more disposable income while i was growing up.
You know what though, looking at what i read nowadays, and it doesn't look like ford is really that bad... you compare statistics and you realize that in terms of quality and reliability, ford is pretty much dead average. honda and toyota are usually top of the pack, but the difference isn't really all that significant. I'm pretty sure things have improved a lot since the early 90s though.
I learned in my Design class (mech eng) that basically the asian car companies are so far ahead in terms of efficiency and profitability and all that stuff, basically because of this japanese guy Taguchi who developed this design philosophy called Quality Function Deployment (poor translation i guess). It deals basically with looking at customer wants and needs and translates them to product specifications on a weighted basis. Anyways, when i first learned about it, i thought it was kinda stupid, but apparently its what everyone in pretty much all of the design industry uses. The things is, this philosophy, this book or whatever it was, was only written in japanese, back in like '66 or something, but it wasn't translated to english until the 80s. Finally the americans got their hands on it and started learning how to impliment it, but the japanese were already way ahead, and i guess they still are, slightly.
Just look up QFD on google if you're curious. We had to use this system in my design class to build a machine that would drive around and shoot golf ***** at targets. I have no clue who our customers were...
By the way, there are absolutely no Toyota or Lexus cars that inspire me at all nowadays, it'd be hard for me to actually want one. i just like what they're doing as a company. Me, i want a hybrid mustang.
6/4/05, 04:37 PM
#34
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A hybrid Mustang eh? Hmmm... might be pretty interesting. Maybe with a six in between the standard six and the GT.
The Escape hybrid was applauded. They say it has more punch than you would think. They're rated at 155 hp and 155 lbs of torque (I think) but they say it feels like the 200 hp six
The Escape hybrid was applauded. They say it has more punch than you would think. They're rated at 155 hp and 155 lbs of torque (I think) but they say it feels like the 200 hp six
6/6/05, 08:04 PM
#35
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Originally posted by 1999 Black 35th GT@June 2, 2005, 11:25 AM
No offense but to me toyota will always = JUNK!!
IF they even bring out those cars, which will probably be b u t t ugly anyway, they'll be so overpriced they won't even sell!
Look at the SC430's!!! 63k for a car that looks like a camry with Rosie O'Donnell's **** glued to the back!!!
You could have 2 NEW GT's for that!!!
And I don't trust toyota and their hybrids. They can't even get them right!! The Priuses are stalling while driving!!! JUNK I say JUNK!!!
No offense but to me toyota will always = JUNK!!
IF they even bring out those cars, which will probably be b u t t ugly anyway, they'll be so overpriced they won't even sell!
Look at the SC430's!!! 63k for a car that looks like a camry with Rosie O'Donnell's **** glued to the back!!!
You could have 2 NEW GT's for that!!!
And I don't trust toyota and their hybrids. They can't even get them right!! The Priuses are stalling while driving!!!
JUNK I say JUNK!!!I should get Navigator by the end of summer, but I'am really in doubt wheather that's good move or not. I can't afford Lexus or Acura or Ifininty and their SUVs and I don't like them because they don't offer 3rd row seats. Navigator does offer that.
I just came back from Europe today and I rented 1995 Skoda Felicia with 1.3L engine and 43 hp (yep, 43 hp). It had 192,000 km (120,000 miles) and it was running like brand new. My cousing have 1987 VW Golf with 387,000 km (242,000 miles) and everything is original on him. Engine is, I think, either 1.9L or 2.0L. Its running like brand new. I think I saw more older VWs in Serbian than I saw more older domestic cars in the USA. No lie man.
6/6/05, 11:04 PM
#36
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Zoran, welcome back. I've never understood why you want a Navigator, but that's your choice.
A hybrid Mustang is an interesting idea and I'd certainly consider one. It's the interim step into the future.
Would I kill Mercury? In a heartbeat. It's a redundant brand and what little they make that is noteworthy could could easily be absorbed into the mainstram Ford pipeline.
Subaru is great but I think Huyndai is also coming on strong.
James, KanBan is a great idea. Many years ago I set up a manual replacement parts system for a Marine artillery regiment. Laborious, true, but if a computer goes down you still have what you need on hand. Granted, the gov isn't worried about bottom line profits.
I know some of you are diehard Ford fans. I'm not. I just want a fun reliable car no matter where it comes from, and I think that today this is true of most buyers. At some point Ford will recognize this, or they will go the way of all the other manufacturers who didn't see it. Not so much the fun part, but the quality and reliability. That's the heart of their sales. And I'm not talking about fleet sales to the rental (disposable) car market, but to the average consumer who actually keeps these things.
In the family car market, why do Toyota and Honda win the sales wars? Quality, or at least the perception of it. Word of mouth goes a long way in selling these cars. These things have the reputation, if not the history to back it up, of being rock solid.
My only Toyota ownership experience was with a new 1986 first generation MR2. After 60,000+ miles, it had seen the dealership twice for the scheduled service. Nothing ever broke on that car. I have many friends who have similar stories, but none of my Ford owning aquaintances can say the same thing.
I'm afraid that the bean counters have had a huge influence in the perceived demise of Ford. This isn't a shot at their expertise, a la IRS on the hot selling Mustang, but rather their willingness to shave a buck or two in shortsideness. Alas, this is all coming back to haunt Ford, and it is upper management to blame. Their final decisions are the ones that affect the future of the company, and to date they have been found falling far short of the mark.
But I think that Ford is on the right track. Lets hope they get there before the roof falls in on their heads.
A hybrid Mustang is an interesting idea and I'd certainly consider one. It's the interim step into the future.
Would I kill Mercury? In a heartbeat. It's a redundant brand and what little they make that is noteworthy could could easily be absorbed into the mainstram Ford pipeline.
Subaru is great but I think Huyndai is also coming on strong.
James, KanBan is a great idea. Many years ago I set up a manual replacement parts system for a Marine artillery regiment. Laborious, true, but if a computer goes down you still have what you need on hand. Granted, the gov isn't worried about bottom line profits.
I know some of you are diehard Ford fans. I'm not. I just want a fun reliable car no matter where it comes from, and I think that today this is true of most buyers. At some point Ford will recognize this, or they will go the way of all the other manufacturers who didn't see it. Not so much the fun part, but the quality and reliability. That's the heart of their sales. And I'm not talking about fleet sales to the rental (disposable) car market, but to the average consumer who actually keeps these things.
In the family car market, why do Toyota and Honda win the sales wars? Quality, or at least the perception of it. Word of mouth goes a long way in selling these cars. These things have the reputation, if not the history to back it up, of being rock solid.
My only Toyota ownership experience was with a new 1986 first generation MR2. After 60,000+ miles, it had seen the dealership twice for the scheduled service. Nothing ever broke on that car. I have many friends who have similar stories, but none of my Ford owning aquaintances can say the same thing.
I'm afraid that the bean counters have had a huge influence in the perceived demise of Ford. This isn't a shot at their expertise, a la IRS on the hot selling Mustang, but rather their willingness to shave a buck or two in shortsideness. Alas, this is all coming back to haunt Ford, and it is upper management to blame. Their final decisions are the ones that affect the future of the company, and to date they have been found falling far short of the mark.
But I think that Ford is on the right track. Lets hope they get there before the roof falls in on their heads.
Zoran are u interested in swapping motors out of your navigator for a 5.4 2v SOHC from a F-150? 
6/7/05, 01:07 AM
#38
Bullitt Member
I think the problem is too many customers today want gadgets in there cars. V-TECH, cvt, crap like that. Ford and Chevy both don't have that technology. Well Ford had the Variable Trans in the 500. As usual though the market cant always be on top. There has to be some down time. But yeah around here everyone hates Fords. If you ask them why they just say cause they stink.
Also reliablity of a car is based on how the car was previously maintained. Pretty much any car of today, if you take care of the car and do everything regulary the car will last 200K miles easly.
Also reliablity of a car is based on how the car was previously maintained. Pretty much any car of today, if you take care of the car and do everything regulary the car will last 200K miles easly.
6/7/05, 04:22 AM
#39
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The reason why I want Navigator is awesome design of 1st generation (1998-2002). I don't wanna 1998 model because they had only 230 hp, so I want 1999+. I really like how they look and another feature that Navigator have and most of other SUVs don't is 3rd row of seats.
Ford doesn't need to kill Mercury, they just need to introduce "different" cars than Ford. Other than Mountaineer the rest of Mercury vehicles look exactly like Ford.
Ford doesn't need to kill Mercury, they just need to introduce "different" cars than Ford. Other than Mountaineer the rest of Mercury vehicles look exactly like Ford.
6/7/05, 07:16 AM
#40
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Originally posted by Red Star@June 7, 2005, 4:25 AM
Ford doesn't need to kill Mercury, they just need to introduce "different" cars than Ford. Other than Mountaineer the rest of Mercury vehicles look exactly like Ford.
Ford doesn't need to kill Mercury, they just need to introduce "different" cars than Ford. Other than Mountaineer the rest of Mercury vehicles look exactly like Ford.