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1/11/06, 01:13 PM
#201
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Originally posted by n3cr0mncr@January 11, 2006, 11:11 AM
If there are going to be over 9000.....there is no need for ANYONE to pay more than MSRP. There are a lot of people who want these, but there are also a lot who won't be able to afford them and are talknig about buying one of the first when they couldn't afford an '87 escort.
If there are going to be over 9000.....there is no need for ANYONE to pay more than MSRP. There are a lot of people who want these, but there are also a lot who won't be able to afford them and are talknig about buying one of the first when they couldn't afford an '87 escort.
Aint that the truth!!!
1/12/06, 09:39 AM
#203
Originally posted by softbatch@January 9, 2006, 11:49 AM
FR500C a Ballasted 3300 lbs they are capable of 3100 or below
GT500 ~3920
2005 M3 3415
2005 M5 4012
The M3 also gained 100lbs in GAC trim.
FR500C a Ballasted 3300 lbs they are capable of 3100 or below
GT500 ~3920
2005 M3 3415
2005 M5 4012
The M3 also gained 100lbs in GAC trim.
Absolutely the GT500 is going to be the heavier car, but a lot of people on this forum have apparently, and incorrectly, decided that a heavier car simply cannot be a handler. I have no idea where this idea comes from since cars like Ferrari's 2+2's, the M6, and even the old T-Bird Super Coupe have been excellent handlers and were all roughly 4,000lb cars or heavier. The GAC Mustang is apparently heavier than the M3, as it should be, but handles itself quite nicely in competition with the sameAnd frankly, I expect the M3 to put on a few lbs as it is a feature-heavy car and since it has grown larger yet again. The car gets heavier, and leans further toward the Grand Touring side of the spectrum, with every generation. I don't expect that this one will be any different.
When the new M3 comes out in the '07 models it will have a 400-425hp V8 and since it is aluminum compared to the cast iron I6 of the current M3 the weight bias may become better. Making the M3 probably just as fast(more like a short tick slower) as the Shelby in straight line speed as well as blowing it away around a curve.
BMW is very good at using every last ounce of hp, but Porsche for example is even better and even their magical new 911S can only eek into the mid 12's with almost 400hp, most of the weight over the rear wheels, and considerably lower weight than the M3 will be packing. And note that BMW does not under-rate their cars so if it says 400hp you can believe it. The GT500 may be more difficult to get to hook up at the strip, but it will no doubt be a good bit faster than the last Cobra, which probably possessed straight line capabilities somewhere near what a 400hp M3 can be expected to muster. Put simply, the GT500 will be a low 12 second car and the M3 will not.
I don't think the M3 will be light enough to overcome such a drastic difference in power, and while I expect better handling than a GT500 I don't expect a huge difference. Which is faster is going to depend a lot on the track and the driver.
1/12/06, 10:03 AM
#204
Originally posted by max2000jp@January 10, 2006, 10:44 AM
I drove my dad's 545i for a week and went back to my Mustang. The Bimmer's steering feel felt much sharper and made me feel much more confident in the car. The brakes felt the same way. I have never driven an American car that has a German like feel. There is more than numbers in judging handling.
On a side note, the C5 Z06 blows away an E46 M3 on the track. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Also, the FR500C isn't very close to the street versions. I saw one up close in person at a track event and it uses some production peices, but a lot are specific to the car.
I drove my dad's 545i for a week and went back to my Mustang. The Bimmer's steering feel felt much sharper and made me feel much more confident in the car. The brakes felt the same way. I have never driven an American car that has a German like feel. There is more than numbers in judging handling.
On a side note, the C5 Z06 blows away an E46 M3 on the track. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Also, the FR500C isn't very close to the street versions. I saw one up close in person at a track event and it uses some production peices, but a lot are specific to the car.
Most owners claim the same, but with respect most owners are telling a story and take much longer to end their fascination with spinning propellers or pretty rings all in a row. I likely know as well as most here that there is more to handling than simple numbers, but in honesty I am not sure a 5-series is the best car to make that point with...maybe a 911 or an old school A4 (best fwd chassis steering ever IMO) And frankly, if the balnce isn't there overall numbers usually don't follow so overall numbers do tell a lot
That aside, German cars do have their reputation for a reason, but it has become as much myth as reality in more recent years. I see no reason to doom the GT500 before it's release especially considering that it's suspension is based on a race car that handles M3's nicely. And, BMW isn't exactly on their A-game anymore. The newer cars aren't as slick as the older ones were. Often the steering isn't nearly as lively and it is more difficult to tell what the car is doing. Somewhere in Lexus' recent pursuit to become BMW it appears that BMW decided they want to be a sporty Lexus.
And actually no, the C5 Z06 does not blow away the M3 on the track, unless that track is biased toward the Z06's big power in which case of course the Z06 will run away from the BMW. Put both on an autocross course and the M3 will tear the C5 Z06 a new one, but I would call that a poor example of these cars general capabilities since it favors the M3's more neutral balance. Motor Trend posted much better specific handling numbers for the Z06 than for the M3 in 00, but at Gingerman Raceway (I think it was Gingerman, I'll have to check) the Z06 was only slightly faster than the M3 (less than a second a lap) There is more to handling than just simple numbers you know.
As for the FR500C, the pertinent fact here is that it uses the Mustang's Mac strut IFS, live-axle rear, and chassis. The fact that it doesn't have a Shaker 500 or power seats in it doesn't make it that far removed from the production car. The rulebook says the FR500C is allowed to use a different front control arm, rear control arm, and outer tied rod. Of course since the GAC car's suspension is the same basic suspension and chassis the GT500 will use, and according to Ford the GT500 will use a lot of this car's suspension tuning, it is pretty likely that the GT500 will use spec parts here too...just like the GAC car
1/12/06, 10:48 AM
#205
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Originally posted by jsaylor@January 12, 2006, 10:42 AM
Unless I read the wrong regulations the GAC rulebook I found online says GAC weight for the M3 is 3150lb and that GAC weight for the Mustang GT is 3300lb. That would hardly have the M3 gaining weight and actually respresents a roughly 300lb drop in weight.
Unless I read the wrong regulations the GAC rulebook I found online says GAC weight for the M3 is 3150lb and that GAC weight for the Mustang GT is 3300lb. That would hardly have the M3 gaining weight and actually respresents a roughly 300lb drop in weight.
1/12/06, 11:52 AM
#206
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Originally posted by jsaylor@January 12, 2006, 11:06 AM
Among my college jobs was a stint as a salesman at a Volvo dealership. (eventually we sold Jags and Porsche's too) My backside has been blessed with drives in 911's, S-Class Mercedes, A-4's and a myriad of other Euro iron. In fact, unlike most owners of the same I drove these so often that I became jaded and unimpressed by the badge on the hood unless the car could back it up. (not uncommon btw)
Most owners claim the same, but with respect most owners are telling a story and take much longer to end their fascination with spinning propellers or pretty rings all in a row. I likely know as well as most here that there is more to handling than simple numbers, but in honesty I am not sure a 5-series is the best car to make that point with...maybe a 911 or an old school A4 (best fwd chassis steering ever IMO) And frankly, if the balnce isn't there overall numbers usually don't follow so overall numbers do tell a lot
That aside, German cars do have their reputation for a reason, but it has become as much myth as reality in more recent years. I see no reason to doom the GT500 before it's release especially considering that it's suspension is based on a race car that handles M3's nicely. And, BMW isn't exactly on their A-game anymore. The newer cars aren't as slick as the older ones were. Often the steering isn't nearly as lively and it is more difficult to tell what the car is doing. Somewhere in Lexus' recent pursuit to become BMW it appears that BMW decided they want to be a sporty Lexus.
And actually no, the C5 Z06 does not blow away the M3 on the track, unless that track is biased toward the Z06's big power in which case of course the Z06 will run away from the BMW. Put both on an autocross course and the M3 will tear the C5 Z06 a new one, but I would call that a poor example of these cars general capabilities since it favors the M3's more neutral balance. Motor Trend posted much better specific handling numbers for the Z06 than for the M3 in 00, but at Gingerman Raceway (I think it was Gingerman, I'll have to check) the Z06 was only slightly faster than the M3 (less than a second a lap) There is more to handling than just simple numbers you know.
As for the FR500C, the pertinent fact here is that it uses the Mustang's Mac strut IFS, live-axle rear, and chassis. The fact that it doesn't have a Shaker 500 or power seats in it doesn't make it that far removed from the production car. The rulebook says the FR500C is allowed to use a different front control arm, rear control arm, and outer tied rod. Of course since the GAC car's suspension is the same basic suspension and chassis the GT500 will use, and according to Ford the GT500 will use a lot of this car's suspension tuning, it is pretty likely that the GT500 will use spec parts here too...just like the GAC car
Among my college jobs was a stint as a salesman at a Volvo dealership. (eventually we sold Jags and Porsche's too) My backside has been blessed with drives in 911's, S-Class Mercedes, A-4's and a myriad of other Euro iron. In fact, unlike most owners of the same I drove these so often that I became jaded and unimpressed by the badge on the hood unless the car could back it up. (not uncommon btw)
Most owners claim the same, but with respect most owners are telling a story and take much longer to end their fascination with spinning propellers or pretty rings all in a row. I likely know as well as most here that there is more to handling than simple numbers, but in honesty I am not sure a 5-series is the best car to make that point with...maybe a 911 or an old school A4 (best fwd chassis steering ever IMO) And frankly, if the balnce isn't there overall numbers usually don't follow so overall numbers do tell a lot
That aside, German cars do have their reputation for a reason, but it has become as much myth as reality in more recent years. I see no reason to doom the GT500 before it's release especially considering that it's suspension is based on a race car that handles M3's nicely. And, BMW isn't exactly on their A-game anymore. The newer cars aren't as slick as the older ones were. Often the steering isn't nearly as lively and it is more difficult to tell what the car is doing. Somewhere in Lexus' recent pursuit to become BMW it appears that BMW decided they want to be a sporty Lexus.
And actually no, the C5 Z06 does not blow away the M3 on the track, unless that track is biased toward the Z06's big power in which case of course the Z06 will run away from the BMW. Put both on an autocross course and the M3 will tear the C5 Z06 a new one, but I would call that a poor example of these cars general capabilities since it favors the M3's more neutral balance. Motor Trend posted much better specific handling numbers for the Z06 than for the M3 in 00, but at Gingerman Raceway (I think it was Gingerman, I'll have to check) the Z06 was only slightly faster than the M3 (less than a second a lap) There is more to handling than just simple numbers you know.
As for the FR500C, the pertinent fact here is that it uses the Mustang's Mac strut IFS, live-axle rear, and chassis. The fact that it doesn't have a Shaker 500 or power seats in it doesn't make it that far removed from the production car. The rulebook says the FR500C is allowed to use a different front control arm, rear control arm, and outer tied rod. Of course since the GAC car's suspension is the same basic suspension and chassis the GT500 will use, and according to Ford the GT500 will use a lot of this car's suspension tuning, it is pretty likely that the GT500 will use spec parts here too...just like the GAC car
As for Gingerman, it's funny that you mention it. That's exactly where I have direct experience with both cars. Hate to tell you, but with a good driver in the Z06 it ain't pretty for the M3. Ron Fellows piloted a bone stock Z06 to high 1:32s at Gingerman. IIRC bone stock E46 M3s are up in the high 1:35 to 1:36. E46 M3's are much more inspiring at the limit and have a better feel vs the Z06 though. As for Auto-X, I have no experience with it but I would think the Z06's power and torque would hinder it on a tight course.
The FR500 shares some parts with the production car, but a lot of the parts are specific to the race car. Here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/musta...ifications.asp . It breaks down all the specific parts. It's a lot more than you think. I am sure that the GT500 shares very little in suspension tuning(especially since it lacks the coilovers and adj dampers) with the FR500 since it is a street car. It's a good marketing tool though
1/12/06, 12:04 PM
#207
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Originally posted by jsaylor@January 12, 2006, 10:42 AM
Absolutely the GT500 is going to be the heavier car, but a lot of people on this forum have apparently, and incorrectly, decided that a heavier car simply cannot be a handler. I have no idea where this idea comes from since cars like Ferrari's 2+2's, the M6, and even the old T-Bird Super Coupe have been excellent handlers and were all roughly 4,000lb cars or heavier. The GAC Mustang is apparently heavier than the M3, as it should be, but handles itself quite nicely in competition with the sameAnd frankly, I expect the M3 to put on a few lbs as it is a feature-heavy car and since it has grown larger yet again. The car gets heavier, and leans further toward the Grand Touring side of the spectrum, with every generation. I don't expect that this one will be any different.
Weight bias is right at 50/50 % f/r rear now, and while I prefer a slightly rearward weight bias I am not certain that you could call it "better" since many consider 50/50 the holy grail of balance. That said, aluminum block or not, I am relatively certain the car will weigh more than the current M3 which in real world terms will probably put the weight somewhere between 3,500 and 3,600lb. 7-speed SMG or not, and even if it weighs 3,400lb, this car is going to be a good bit more than a tick slower in a straight line than a GT500 even if the Ford is under-tired. (and it is) It simply isn't going to be making the ponies or torque to run better than high 12' or maybe the higher end of mid 12's
BMW is very good at using every last ounce of hp, but Porsche for example is even better and even their magical new 911S can only eek into the mid 12's with almost 400hp, most of the weight over the rear wheels, and considerably lower weight than the M3 will be packing. And note that BMW does not under-rate their cars so if it says 400hp you can believe it. The GT500 may be more difficult to get to hook up at the strip, but it will no doubt be a good bit faster than the last Cobra, which probably possessed straight line capabilities somewhere near what a 400hp M3 can be expected to muster. Put simply, the GT500 will be a low 12 second car and the M3 will not.
I don't think the M3 will be light enough to overcome such a drastic difference in power, and while I expect better handling than a GT500 I don't expect a huge difference. Which is faster is going to depend a lot on the track and the driver.
Absolutely the GT500 is going to be the heavier car, but a lot of people on this forum have apparently, and incorrectly, decided that a heavier car simply cannot be a handler. I have no idea where this idea comes from since cars like Ferrari's 2+2's, the M6, and even the old T-Bird Super Coupe have been excellent handlers and were all roughly 4,000lb cars or heavier. The GAC Mustang is apparently heavier than the M3, as it should be, but handles itself quite nicely in competition with the sameAnd frankly, I expect the M3 to put on a few lbs as it is a feature-heavy car and since it has grown larger yet again. The car gets heavier, and leans further toward the Grand Touring side of the spectrum, with every generation. I don't expect that this one will be any different.
Weight bias is right at 50/50 % f/r rear now, and while I prefer a slightly rearward weight bias I am not certain that you could call it "better" since many consider 50/50 the holy grail of balance. That said, aluminum block or not, I am relatively certain the car will weigh more than the current M3 which in real world terms will probably put the weight somewhere between 3,500 and 3,600lb. 7-speed SMG or not, and even if it weighs 3,400lb, this car is going to be a good bit more than a tick slower in a straight line than a GT500 even if the Ford is under-tired. (and it is) It simply isn't going to be making the ponies or torque to run better than high 12' or maybe the higher end of mid 12's
BMW is very good at using every last ounce of hp, but Porsche for example is even better and even their magical new 911S can only eek into the mid 12's with almost 400hp, most of the weight over the rear wheels, and considerably lower weight than the M3 will be packing. And note that BMW does not under-rate their cars so if it says 400hp you can believe it. The GT500 may be more difficult to get to hook up at the strip, but it will no doubt be a good bit faster than the last Cobra, which probably possessed straight line capabilities somewhere near what a 400hp M3 can be expected to muster. Put simply, the GT500 will be a low 12 second car and the M3 will not.
I don't think the M3 will be light enough to overcome such a drastic difference in power, and while I expect better handling than a GT500 I don't expect a huge difference. Which is faster is going to depend a lot on the track and the driver.
I think the M3 vs GT500 comparo is a bit unfair. The M3 is a luxury sports coupe with features us Mustang owners could only dream of. The GT500 is a bare bones coupe. BMW obviously has a different philosophy than Ford. Ford IMO doesn't focus on technology. BMW on the other hand uses ingenuity to produce new technologies to get every ounce of performance out of their cars. The drawback is that your wallet is a lot lighter. The new M3 will be a mid 12s car IMO, since the E46 runs low 13s with 333hp. BMW is said to be using lightweight materials, so hopefully weight will stay down.
1/12/06, 02:59 PM
#208
Originally posted by max2000jp@January 12, 2006, 1:55 PM
Me thinks you need to go to your local BMW dealer and test drive a new Bimmer. The 545i isn't really a performance car, especially without the Sport suspension which my dad's car lacks. BMW's are always near 50/50 in balance and all have a great feel. While I agree that the E46 M3 lost some of its edge compared to the E36, it's still a quicker car.
As for Gingerman, it's funny that you mention it. That's exactly where I have direct experience with both cars. Hate to tell you, but with a good driver in the Z06 it ain't pretty for the M3. Ron Fellows piloted a bone stock Z06 to high 1:32s at Gingerman. IIRC bone stock E46 M3s are up in the high 1:35 to 1:36. E46 M3's are much more inspiring at the limit and have a better feel vs the Z06 though. As for Auto-X, I have no experience with it but I would think the Z06's power and torque would hinder it on a tight course.
The FR500 shares some parts with the production car, but a lot of the parts are specific to the race car. Here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/musta...ifications.asp . It breaks down all the specific parts. It's a lot more than you think. I am sure that the GT500 shares very little in suspension tuning(especially since it lacks the coilovers and adj dampers) with the FR500 since it is a street car. It's a good marketing tool though
Me thinks you need to go to your local BMW dealer and test drive a new Bimmer. The 545i isn't really a performance car, especially without the Sport suspension which my dad's car lacks. BMW's are always near 50/50 in balance and all have a great feel. While I agree that the E46 M3 lost some of its edge compared to the E36, it's still a quicker car.
As for Gingerman, it's funny that you mention it. That's exactly where I have direct experience with both cars. Hate to tell you, but with a good driver in the Z06 it ain't pretty for the M3. Ron Fellows piloted a bone stock Z06 to high 1:32s at Gingerman. IIRC bone stock E46 M3s are up in the high 1:35 to 1:36. E46 M3's are much more inspiring at the limit and have a better feel vs the Z06 though. As for Auto-X, I have no experience with it but I would think the Z06's power and torque would hinder it on a tight course.
The FR500 shares some parts with the production car, but a lot of the parts are specific to the race car. Here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/musta...ifications.asp . It breaks down all the specific parts. It's a lot more than you think. I am sure that the GT500 shares very little in suspension tuning(especially since it lacks the coilovers and adj dampers) with the FR500 since it is a street car. It's a good marketing tool though
I used the Autocross comparo to make a point, and I am guessing you figured that one out. A Focus ZX3 with some Kumho's on it would more than likely tear a C5 Z06 apart on the typical autocross circuit, so it is biased for sure and that was the intent. I'll have to go through my archives when I get home to see if it was Gingerman or not in the Z06, Porsche, M3 comparo....I'm probably wrong about the track. But, none of this takes away from the point I was trying to make in my original post..which is that a heavier car can compete even if lighter is better.
To that end, I don't think too many people actually expect the GT500 to use actual componentry from the FR500C race cars. However, considering that Ford does have the racing program and it is a modified version of the stock Mustang chassis/suspension going around those tracks I have no doubt that Ford is using data gathered from the FR500C's racing experience and techniques used to improve that car's handling will almost certainly be used to make the GT500 a faster car. That is where the connection lies, and I see no reason to believe that a street suspension developed in part through a successful racing program cannot be as successful on the street. You sound like you have found your way around a race track or two, so you know as well as I do that the same concepts that work on the track are typically the same that work on the street.
In fact, I think Ford is getting far too little credit for the fact that they do run a racing program for the Mustang that is no doubt helping to develop future high performance Mustangs including the GT500. I cannot think of anything more high-tech than that
1/12/06, 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by jsaylor@January 12, 2006, 4:02 PM
I agree, the 5-Series is not what I would call a performance car without at least having Sport added to it's name. And frankly, with the new generation i would be willing to bet Sport doesn't mean what it did in the last generation. As has been the habit with BMW of late, the last gen 5 was more of a "sports car" than this gen is. I expect the same evolution to continue with the next M3 as it has with the standard 3-Series cars. The car has grown larger, and I find it difficult to believe that this car wont be at least a 3,500lb offering. my bet is BMW is going to say 3,500lb and all the cars on the lot are going to weigh 3,600lb.
I used the Autocross comparo to make a point, and I am guessing you figured that one out. A Focus ZX3 with some Kumho's on it would more than likely tear a C5 Z06 apart on the typical autocross circuit, so it is biased for sure and that was the intent. I'll have to go through my archives when I get home to see if it was Gingerman or not in the Z06, Porsche, M3 comparo....I'm probably wrong about the track. But, none of this takes away from the point I was trying to make in my original post..which is that a heavier car can compete even if lighter is better.
To that end, I don't think too many people actually expect the GT500 to use actual componentry from the FR500C race cars. However, considering that Ford does have the racing program and it is a modified version of the stock Mustang chassis/suspension going around those tracks I have no doubt that Ford is using data gathered from the FR500C's racing experience and techniques used to improve that car's handling will almost certainly be used to make the GT500 a faster car. That is where the connection lies, and I see no reason to believe that a street suspension developed in part through a successful racing program cannot be as successful on the street. You sound like you have found your way around a race track or two, so you know as well as I do that the same concepts that work on the track are typically the same that work on the street.
In fact, I think Ford is getting far too little credit for the fact that they do run a racing program for the Mustang that is no doubt helping to develop future high performance Mustangs including the GT500. I cannot think of anything more high-tech than that
I agree, the 5-Series is not what I would call a performance car without at least having Sport added to it's name. And frankly, with the new generation i would be willing to bet Sport doesn't mean what it did in the last generation. As has been the habit with BMW of late, the last gen 5 was more of a "sports car" than this gen is. I expect the same evolution to continue with the next M3 as it has with the standard 3-Series cars. The car has grown larger, and I find it difficult to believe that this car wont be at least a 3,500lb offering. my bet is BMW is going to say 3,500lb and all the cars on the lot are going to weigh 3,600lb.
I used the Autocross comparo to make a point, and I am guessing you figured that one out. A Focus ZX3 with some Kumho's on it would more than likely tear a C5 Z06 apart on the typical autocross circuit, so it is biased for sure and that was the intent. I'll have to go through my archives when I get home to see if it was Gingerman or not in the Z06, Porsche, M3 comparo....I'm probably wrong about the track. But, none of this takes away from the point I was trying to make in my original post..which is that a heavier car can compete even if lighter is better.
To that end, I don't think too many people actually expect the GT500 to use actual componentry from the FR500C race cars. However, considering that Ford does have the racing program and it is a modified version of the stock Mustang chassis/suspension going around those tracks I have no doubt that Ford is using data gathered from the FR500C's racing experience and techniques used to improve that car's handling will almost certainly be used to make the GT500 a faster car. That is where the connection lies, and I see no reason to believe that a street suspension developed in part through a successful racing program cannot be as successful on the street. You sound like you have found your way around a race track or two, so you know as well as I do that the same concepts that work on the track are typically the same that work on the street.
In fact, I think Ford is getting far too little credit for the fact that they do run a racing program for the Mustang that is no doubt helping to develop future high performance Mustangs including the GT500. I cannot think of anything more high-tech than that
I am sure that Ford Racing is using suspension data and aero data from the race series and using it in the GT500. This is great and many manufacturers do the same. It's the old win on sunday, sell on monday philosophy. I am just disappointed that Ford chose to build us a heffer. I knew that the GT500 would weigh more than the GT, but not this much. All things equal, if the car was 3600 vs 39XX it would perform better.
I am awaiting performance numbers and they better be good. GM and DCX are gunning for Ford. Sad to say IMO GM trumps Ford in building performance cars.
1/12/06, 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by jsaylor@January 12, 2006, 4:02 PM
I used the Autocross comparo to make a point, and I am guessing you figured that one out. A Focus ZX3 with some Kumho's on it would more than likely tear a C5 Z06 apart on the typical autocross circuit, so it is biased for sure and that was the intent. I'll have to go through my archives when I get home to see if it was Gingerman or not in the Z06, Porsche, M3 comparo....I'm probably wrong about the track. But, none of this takes away from the point I was trying to make in my original post..which is that a heavier car can compete even if lighter is better.
I used the Autocross comparo to make a point, and I am guessing you figured that one out. A Focus ZX3 with some Kumho's on it would more than likely tear a C5 Z06 apart on the typical autocross circuit, so it is biased for sure and that was the intent. I'll have to go through my archives when I get home to see if it was Gingerman or not in the Z06, Porsche, M3 comparo....I'm probably wrong about the track. But, none of this takes away from the point I was trying to make in my original post..which is that a heavier car can compete even if lighter is better.
1/13/06, 10:51 AM
#211
Originally posted by max2000jp@January 12, 2006, 5:48 PM
I am sure that Ford Racing is using suspension data and aero data from the race series and using it in the GT500. This is great and many manufacturers do the same. It's the old win on sunday, sell on monday philosophy. I am just disappointed that Ford chose to build us a heffer. I knew that the GT500 would weigh more than the GT, but not this much. All things equal, if the car was 3600 vs 39XX it would perform better.
I am sure that Ford Racing is using suspension data and aero data from the race series and using it in the GT500. This is great and many manufacturers do the same. It's the old win on sunday, sell on monday philosophy. I am just disappointed that Ford chose to build us a heffer. I knew that the GT500 would weigh more than the GT, but not this much. All things equal, if the car was 3600 vs 39XX it would perform better.
The magic car would be one with the FR500 spec suspension/cobra brakes, and an aluminum 5.4 at about 400hp and 3500lbs or less At about $35k
1/13/06, 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by kevinb120@January 13, 2006, 11:54 AM
I agree with that 100%
The magic car would be one with the FR500 spec suspension and an aluminum 5.4 at about 400hp At about $35k
I agree with that 100%
The magic car would be one with the FR500 spec suspension and an aluminum 5.4 at about 400hp At about $35k
1/13/06, 10:57 AM
#213
Originally posted by softbatch@January 13, 2006, 12:57 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble on that one but the shocks alone on the FR500C are like 5 grand
Sorry to burst your bubble on that one but the shocks alone on the FR500C are like 5 grand
1/13/06, 01:17 PM
#214
Originally posted by n3cr0mncr@January 11, 2006, 12:11 PM
If there are going to be over 9000.....there is no need for ANYONE to pay more than MSRP. There are a lot of people who want these, but there are also a lot who won't be able to afford them and are talknig about buying one of the first when they couldn't afford an '87 escort.
If there are going to be over 9000.....there is no need for ANYONE to pay more than MSRP. There are a lot of people who want these, but there are also a lot who won't be able to afford them and are talknig about buying one of the first when they couldn't afford an '87 escort.
1/13/06, 08:31 PM
#215
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Originally posted by max2000jp@January 12, 2006, 3:48 PM
Sad to say IMO GM trumps Ford in building performance cars.
Sad to say IMO GM trumps Ford in building performance cars.
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
1/13/06, 08:36 PM
#216
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Originally posted by BC_Shelby@January 13, 2006, 9:34 PM
Well, let's look at that, shall we?
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
Well, let's look at that, shall we?
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
1/13/06, 08:43 PM
#217
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Originally posted by BC_Shelby@January 13, 2006, 9:34 PM
Well, let's look at that, shall we?
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
Well, let's look at that, shall we?
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
Ford GT = Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Fixed that for you
Don't let your love of all things Ford blind you to the fact that the Z06 is at least extremely close to the equal of the GT in power and handling.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...67/pageId=67618
1/14/06, 01:12 AM
#218
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Originally posted by BC_Shelby@January 13, 2006, 9:34 PM
Well, let's look at that, shall we?
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
Well, let's look at that, shall we?
Ford GT > Chevy Corvette Z06
Shelby GT500 > Pontiac GTO or non existent Camaro
Not right now they don't.
A C6 Z51 Vette IMO should put up similar numbers as a GT500 in a drag race. The C6 will be a better handler.
1/14/06, 02:43 AM
#219
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Originally posted by max2000jp@January 14, 2006, 1:15 AM
The Ford GT and Z06 put up identical numbers, but the GT costs double. Great work there Ford
The Ford GT and Z06 put up identical numbers, but the GT costs double. Great work there Ford
Not sure what stats you're using here
but here are the actual figures:Ford GT
Best lap time 1:32.45
Best lap average speed (mph) 73.2
0-60 mph/quarter-mile (sec) 3.8/12.2
Braking 70-0 mph (ft) 156
Cornering l/r (g) 1.03/1.01
Weight (lb) 3489
Distribution f/r (%) 43.4/56.6
Top speed (mph) 205
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Best lap time 1:32.75
Best lap average speed (mph) 73.0
0-60 mph/quarter-mile (sec) 4.1/12.0
Braking 70-0 mph (ft) 149
Cornering l/r (g) 1.10/1.09
Weight (lb) 3147
Distribution f/r (%) 50.9/49.1
Top speed (mph) 198
1/14/06, 04:53 AM
#220
Originally posted by max2000jp@January 14, 2006, 3:15 AM
The Ford GT and Z06 put up identical numbers, but the GT costs double. Great work there Ford A C6 Z51 Vette IMO should put up similar numbers as a GT500 in a drag race. The C6 will be a better handler.
The Ford GT and Z06 put up identical numbers, but the GT costs double. Great work there Ford
A C6 Z51 Vette IMO should put up similar numbers as a GT500 in a drag race. The C6 will be a better handler.