Robert

We used to have a '92 Lincoln Town Car and the climate control in it went out (just outside warranty) and cost us $700 to replace.

This spring, I traded a '94 Acura Legend for our '04 Honda Pilot, and the climate control in it still worked great... I think reliability/longevity has more to do with a good engineering design and the initial build quality that goes into the parts.

I do believe Ford has improved quality significantly in the past few years, and leads the domestics for reliability, but still lags the best imports. Not trying to bag on Ford, but they pushed me away with tons of reliability issues, which I just haven't had with the Acura and Toyota vehicles I've owned since.

The '05 Mustang is Ford's first chance to get back a once true blue Ford owner... I do what them to succeed! [/b][/quote]
Unfortunately, most of the people on this board are in denial about the "import vs. domestic" quality issue. They'll find obscure facts to support their case that it's more "hype" than reality - and in fact I don't doubt that some of it IS hype.

But two things I know for certain:

1) Domestic automakers have been getting their hineys handed to them by the imports - all you have to do is look at sales figures for the past several years: imports UP...domestics DOWN (Ford is in financial hot water for this very reason). THERE'S A GOOD REASON FOR THIS. People aren't stupid. They can see with their own eyes and feel with their own hands that quality and reliability - while improving - are not quite there yet...because of course the imports wish to maintain their hard-earned lead.

2) I look at and test drive cars frequently...as do two close friends of mine - and we're as discerning as they come. Even if you're partially blind, it's not hard to see that import vehicle makers like Acura (who, IRONICALLY design and build several of their vehicles here in North America) use better quality materials and by-and-large have better fit and finish. A good case in point is the new Chrysler 300. So much of that interior feels cheap to the touch, it isn't funny.

Classic example: why would anyone buy a Lincoln LS when you can have the new Acura TL which offers better quality and more features for less money?

THAT SAID, I too believe the new Mustang has come a long way - but I'll have to wait to see it in person. If it's as well built as the Mazda 6 and as class-leading as the new F-150, then I'd say that's definitely good enough for a Mustang.

Robert

Yeah, no doubt. What Florida needs is for Ford to design a Hurricane-suppressing climate control system.

Hope you guys are doing okay down there and getting life back on-track. This season was unfreakinbelievable!

V10

Because the Lincoln LS is a fantastic handing RWD car with nearly 50/50 F/R weight balance, is fun to drive and is not a nose heavy FWD appliance like the TL. With discounts and rebates the Lincoln LS costs you less than a TL. In addition, the Acura dealers around me are crooks. They act like they are doing you a favor selling you one for MSRP, except you can't even buy one for MSRP because all their Acuras are loaded up with dealer installed options like $250 wood shift ****, Trunk Organizer for $180, Gold kit for $600, Dealer installed alloy wheels for $2,000 , etc.

I know what you mean about that import quality. A friend of mine just paid $1,800 to have the climate control fixed on his out of warranty E class Mercedes.

HUGLE

Yeah, no doubt. What Florida needs is for Ford to design a Hurricane-suppressing climate control system.

Hope you guys are doing okay down there and getting life back on-track. This season was unfreakinbelievable! [/b][/quote]
WAS???? it's not over yet... :bang:

V10

One other thing on Honda quality.

Don't forget about that little automatic transmission problem Honda / Acura is having. The media is barely covering this, but it appears that Honda / Acura ATXs have a nasty habit of downshifting into 2nd gear at the most inappropriate times. This has casued several accidents. IIRC there are now lawsuits due to accidents (you are driving along when suddenly your Acura suddenly downshifts into 2nd slowing your car and you get rear-ended) and a petition to NHSTA to issue a recall. Honda has not admitted to a problem.

If this was Ford or GM having such a problem it would be front page news.

Robert

Because the Lincoln LS is a fantastic handing RWD car with nearly 50/50 F/R weight balance, is fun to drive and is not a nose heavy FWD appliance like the TL. With discounts and rebates the Lincoln LS costs you less than a TL. In addition, the Acura dealers around me are crooks. They act like they are doing you a favor selling you one for MSRP, except you can't even buy one for MSRP because all their Acuras are loaded up with dealer installed options like $250 wood shift ****, Trunk Organizer for $180, Gold kit for $600, Dealer installed alloy wheels for $2,000 , etc.

I know what you mean about that import quality. A friend of mine just paid $1,800 to have the climate control fixed on his out of warranty E class Mercedes. [/b][/quote]
I've driven the LS. Handling is ok, but far from exceptional. This has, no doubt, to do with the rather arcane suspension system being used. It ain't double-wishbone, that's for sure. It's only real handling advantage is in being rear wheel drive. (I will concede that the FWD TL is hampered by torque steer when pushed hard - but it's superior in every other way.)

The LS interior has too many cheap bits, and an interior design that doesn't even come close to the TL, either in form or function.

The LS ranks at the bottom of it's category in almost all major magazine comparisons. Consumer Reports recommends the new TL as a "Best Buy" - not so with the LS.

As to the dealership issue - find another one. God knows there's plenty of horror stories on this board alone about shady Ford dealerships.

And on Mercedes - I couldn't agree more. Overpriced and have lost their luster - the new E-Class has had many electrical problems with various systems. Lexus is superior to Mercedes now in almost every way...except price, of course.

Robert

Hadn't heard this. Would you care to provide some official documentation or reference to support this allegation?

os121

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SixtySix

And for the record, although it says spring/summer, the problem was fixed in production of these models starting in April. My 04 Pilot was built April 18th and is not on the list of VINS affected.

And this recall was covered heavily by the news media during that time frame. In other words it's old news.

There is another one floating around on CRV's though, something about the engine catching fire!

How did we get on this topic again

V10

V10, hope you don't mind me helping out. I apologize for this being very OT. BTW, this recall also affects V6 accords with automatics (I have a friend that owns one). [/b][/quote]
Thanks, os121, but that's another Honda problem, not the one I was referring to.

The problem I was referring to affects Acura TLs and Honda Accords. Honda has been fighting issusing a recall on it.

Sorry Robert, but I don't have the time or energy to find the links for you. But you can go over to BON Forms, School of free thought and start searching. There was a long discussion on it about 6 months ago and IIIC there were links to what limited media coverage there was.

V10

Well, in one review (C&D I think) they pointed out several areas that Honda / Acura was using cheap parts in their interiors. Like switches labeled with ink that wears off instead of hot stamped lettering like virtually all FoMoCo products use.

Check your CRs over the last year. The Lincoln LS is now on their recommended list. I don't remember the issue, but when CR tested a 2003 Linclon LS V6 they ranked it higher than ALL the other cars they tested at the same time which included the CTS, G35, Maxima and Saab 9-5. In particuar they raved about its handling.

The LS DOES use double wishbone suspension, front and rear. Please refer to the phantom drawings in the Road & Track Guide to the LS. It handles extremely well. You must just be bitter about Honda / Acura going back to struts. I will say that when I test drove the old Acura TL, it did handle better than any of the other FWD entry luxo sedans, but at the end of the day, you still knew you were pusing around a nose heavy FWD car with torque steer. The only cars I tested that stood out as different and had the right feel were the BMW 5 and Lincoln LS.

You can add another complaint to the TL. If you are over 6' it is impossible to fit in one and be comfortable. There is no headroom. I had to put the seat all the way down and tilt it way to far back to even fit in a TL to drive it. But then I was 2 miles away from the steering wheel and could barely reach it.

Please list all those functions that the TL has that a LS does not.

Finally, if only it were possible to find a good Acura dealer. While there are 9 LM dealers within an hours drive of me, there are only 3 Acura dealers and all 3 are owned by the same people.

SiHawk

Kind of drifting from the original thread intent, but there seems to be a recurring issue where the Ford ‘loyalists’ say import reliability is just as bad or worse… not a good argument to try to bring others down to a lower level, and because vast quantities of data show/prove which manufactures have the best reliability. The data also shows Ford has gotten much better. In addition Ford is finally designing cars we (import owners) want, and manufacturing them in modern facilities capable of top notch quality, something the Rouge manufacturing plant could never do for the Mustang.

(FWIW the Daimler-Chrysler merger was the beginning of the current decline in Mercedes reliability, not sure of cause and effect, but reliability data started going bad soon after the merger.)

I response to the Acura/Honda transmission reliability issue… All makes have issues, I'm aware of the transmission issues on the TL, MDX, Odyssey and early Honda Pilots (my Pilot was not affected either), and they have been well publicized; especially on the Honda web forums. However, to Honda’s credit I also have friends who've had transmissions replaced at no charge, far after the warranty had expired (in one case with 100K+ miles, and without any catastrophic/hard failure). Manufacturers with good customer service know it brings back repeat customers and can be as important as the quality of the car itself. It’s definitely been a factor in my buying decisions.

All manufacturers likely have a few bad dealers, so if you have one who won’t work with you, find another who suits you better, sort of a Caveat Emptor issue. Your dollars spent elsewhere speak volumes.

With regard to customer service, the domestic dealers have had much to learn from the ‘imports.’ I’ve had plenty of personal experience with poor dealer service at three local Ford dealerships, and have been extremely frustrated arguing to get warranty issues fixed, with the dealership even admitting there is an issue, but can’t figure out what it is, so they wouldn’t/couldn’t fix it (not just one occurrence either)! Everyone knows the customer is right, so fix the car no matter how difficult it is to diagnose. A happy customer is a repeat buyer!

Customer service at my local Acura/Lexus, Toyota, and Honda dealers has also been the best I’ve ever received, bar none. If only all dealers could be so good! Good arguments can be made showing ‘import’ dealerships customer service forced Ford (and other domestics) to get better in this regard also. Poor reliability and dealership issues cost Ford all the money I’ve spent on vehicles for 14+ years now.

Several local Ford dealerships are making significant improvements in infrastructure and training, but they’re just now getting to where the ‘import’ dealers were 10-15 years ago.

Ford is getting my attention again, but it’s been a long wait, and I’m ready to have fun in a Mustang again. However, they don’t have all my trust just yet, I’m going to wait for a few months to see if all the bugs get worked out, and if there’s any early recalls (I have noticed all the recalls Ford has had on other new models over the last few years especially the Focus, Ford really shot their selves in the foot on that one!)

jcopin

Because the Lincoln LS is a fantastic handing RWD car with nearly 50/50 F/R weight balance, is fun to drive and is not a nose heavy FWD appliance like the TL. With discounts and rebates the Lincoln LS costs you less than a TL. In addition, the Acura dealers around me are crooks. They act like they are doing you a favor selling you one for MSRP, except you can't even buy one for MSRP because all their Acuras are loaded up with dealer installed options like $250 wood shift ****, Trunk Organizer for $180, Gold kit for $600, Dealer installed alloy wheels for $2,000 , etc.

I know what you mean about that import quality. A friend of mine just paid $1,800 to have the climate control fixed on his out of warranty E class Mercedes. [/b][/quote]
yea...import quality ....(dream sequence).....dreams of when his mothers 97 4cyl camry engine seized with oil sludge at 70,000 miles and the dealer wanted 4,000 to fix it....ahh import quality..she changed the oil every 3,000 and dealer said every 7000 would be ok....(dream sequence ends) ..AHHH nightmare!! whew..hugs his 1996 6cyl mustang with 140,000 miles on it changing oil every 9,000 miles (lazy) and purrs like a new one

Robert

Unfortunately, your allegations just DON'T support the facts. Case in point...

Here's a comparitive breakdown between the Lincoln LS and Acura TL according to Consumer Guide (who AREN'T paid for their opinions):

"2004 Lincoln LS
MSRP (full load) $43,370
V8 engine
0-60 = 6.8 sec
Suspension: Front and rear short- and long-arm coil-over-shock design with stabilizer bar (NOT DOUBLE WISHBONE)

Instruments/Controls/Interior Materials
Clear gauges. Climate system mounted low with small display, but easy to use. Navigation touch screen absorbs most audio functions, but with less complication than most. Most interior materials just make near-luxury grade.

Value within Class
LS offers a reasonable array of features, capable road manners, and one of the few V8s in the near-luxury class. But sales are slow, reflecting its unexceptional interior decor and relative lack of cachet compared with like-priced rivals."

58 points total, NOT a recommended "Best Buy"



"2004 Acura TL
MSRP (full load): $34,650
V6 engine
0-60 = 6.3 sec
Suspension: Fully independent DOUBLE WISHBONE, front and rear

Instruments/Controls/Interior Materials
Clear gauges, well-marked controls. Cutting-edge DVD-Audio sounds terrific. HandsFreeLink easy to use. Near-luxury benchmark for solid assembly, high-quality materials, and standard amenities such as leather upholstery and heated power front seats.

Value within Class
TL strikes an impressive balance between sport and luxury, with manual-transmission versions adding an extra dose of athleticism. Toss in Acura's traditional levels of refinement, features, and reliability at hard-to-beat prices, and the TL stands tall as a near-luxury pacesetter."

64 points total, RECOMMENDED "Best Buy"


Crash ratings and warranties on both cars are virtually identical. Features on fully-loaded models are similarly close, with the LS ahead in some areas, and the TL in others. But the point is that the TL leads this category and the LS trails in it. Other reports from other organizations and magazines all say basically the same thing.

As to dealerships, I reiterate: I've never seen so many complaints about dealerships as I do on this BB - and those are all knocks against Ford from FORD ENTHUSIASTS.

Your unfortunate Acura experience doesn't reflect the vast majority of consumer accolades for both the brand and its service.

slp

Hadn't heard this. Would you care to provide some official documentation or reference to support this allegation? [/b][/quote]
A coworker of mine had a number of problems with his Acura TL; it was in the shop a lot. They did replace the transmission, which he heard has been a chronic problem.

V10

All I can say Robert, is that if you think the Lincoln LS is a piece of junk, you should go back to your Honda forums and quit wasting your time here on MustangSource.

Hau Thai-Tang, the chief engineer for the Mustang, was the primary suspension engineer for the Lincoln LS. He designed that "arcane" double wishbone suspension you so hate. Hau was the head engineer for Newman Hass Racing during their glory days with Ford (Nigel Mansel championship). So It sounds like he doesn't know what he is doing.

Many (if not most) of the design engineers on the 2005 Mustang worked on the Lincoln LS. Mike Williams, who is the Exterior and Structure Engineering Manager for the Mustang worked on the Lincoln LS unibody. At one of the Ford events I spoke to him. He confirmed that while the Mustang does not share the LS's platform, but the LS was the starting point for the D2C platform. If you look closely at the LS and 05 Stang unibody photo, you can see how similar the floor-pans are. Mike W told me that if you like the LS you'll like the '05 Mustang. So since you hate the LS, it sounds like you'll despise the '05 Stang.

Robert

If you choose to ignore Consumer Guide's facts (your erroneous double wishbone comments being a prime example) in favor of the way you'd like things to be, then you're right, I am wasting my time. Ironically, perhaps misperceptions of reality such as yours help to explain Ford's declining market share.

Believe whatever you want. This discussion is ended.