atomicskiier01

Ok, here's another topic for you guys/girls, since most of you seem to know what you are talking about. Ever since I got my 'stang it seems like it has been harder and harder to shift. Maybe I am just getting used to the car, and starting to notice more things, but I don't know. If I start the car and go through the shift pattern just holding the clutch in and sitting there, it is as smooth as a baby's bottom. When I am driving, it seems like I really have to push the shifter quite hard to get it past the resistance. And yes, the clutch is ALWAYS full depressed, and we are talking about upshifting only. Thanks in advance for the help.

Dan

I'm not a fan of coasting in neutral especially from a large distance before the light.

As far as downshifting, if you are in 4th, you only need to downshift once when coming to a light, there isn't really a need for 2nd. But as Shea said, I often downshift to second because its fun This car can take right turns in 3rd no problem so there really isn't a necessity to downshift to 2nd (though I do it often). My point is, when you KNOW you are going to come to a dead stop, save yourself the downshift to 2nd and just depress the clutch from 3rd when rpms get low.

I think as far as wear goes, if you are downshifting, upshifting excessively, then you're going to wear things out.

maniak

On our 2nd day of owning our 06 v6 (t5 manual tranny) the shifting into 2nd was getting hard.. Forget downshifting into 2nd unless I was at the match point.. It cleared up the next day.. I asked the dealer about the transmission feel and they (more than 1 person) said that when brand new it can be hard to get into gear.. and that is will clear up in a few miles.. Ours cleaned up at about 300 miles and haven't had a really hard shift since. It is still nowhere near as smooth as the nissan altima or hyundai tiburon we test drove.. both of those transmission felt really nice compared to the t5 in our 06).

I"m not 100% sure its normal, but thats what I got from our dealer. I'd also like to hear what other people have to say on it..

atomicskiier01

Anybody else? Everybody talks about how smooth this car shifts, but they could just be talking about the transmission, not the shifter itself.

Stoopy

I'm only at 3,300 miles so far, so maybe too early to tell. I also installed an aftermarket short-throw shifter which has a trade-off of higher shifting effort, so it's an entirely new baseline now. I'll submit that this IS a heavy-duty trans compared to most other manuals out there - you want it to be, considering the power available - so I kind of expect it to feel a little "heavy". A Ferrari trans may offer both smoothness and sturdiness, but migawd look at the cost.....

I've noticed it's also very normal for the shifter to feel much smoother when the car is sitting still, turned off, compared to when you're rolling. It makes perfect sense, when you start to picture what's happening. When it's sitting in the garage and you're moving through the gears, after the first shift or two, you have all the gear teeth in perfect alignment because the gearshafts can slightly turn while you're playin' around. So after a couple of shifts, it's like "whick-whick"...smooth as buttah! But when you start it up and get moving, everything's whirring and rotatin' around and getting generally cantankerous in there. Same thing happened when I installed my Hurst - felt GREAT when I bolted on the chrome handle and moved through the gears while it was still up in the air - fired it up and went for a drive, and oh man, what happened here?! The difference is slight yet noticeable...again, no biggie, and normal, IMHO.

Anyway, even with the different shifter, if I wait for the tranny and synchros to do their job, it'll glide right in - just takes a bit longer than you might want, but works fine for cruisin' to work.

I do totally agree with some comments above about needless downshifting. Meant to comment on that but already wrote a book, LOL. Anyways, I never ever downshift to first while moving, there's no reason to at such a low speed, the brakes can easily handle the rest of the job. Second is very rare too, only if it's a tight corner or turn, or completely suckful traffic.

The relevance here might be if anyone is making a habit of those things, you DO risk wearing your synchros for those lower gears, since they can be working pretty hard, and this likely will contribute to some difficult shifting. Again, I think such a problem will take more time to develop than just a coupla few thousand miles, but something to consider.

And by the way, thanks for the kind words, Shea......kinda surprised someone actually read all that, LOL!

Ugly Ernie

Shifting is kind of like riding a bicycle- both feet have to work together-when one goes up the other goes down.

It is illegal to coast in neutral.

I learned to drive when the shifters were on the steering column. We used to park them in reverse because first was low & you might knock it out of gear with your knee when you were getting in or out of the vehicle. Reverse was high , up out of the way. They both had the same gear ratio.

The Mustang should not be left in reverse because it will wear the spring for the back up lights. Use first.

We didn't use the parking brake because in the winter the brake shoes would freeze & stick to the drums & you wouldn't be able to get the car to move. I don't think that would be a problem now-a days.

The clutch wear you cause by down shifting is far less than the brake wear you cause by not downshifting if it is done properly. You should not skip gears going down. Do not shift into first at more than 15 MPH because it will cause excessive clutch wear.

You use no more fuel coasting in gear than you will coasting in neutral. It only uses fuel if you have your foot on the throttle.

Spdrcr

Interesting thread so far to read. It was a good idea Heres a few points from me as well (take or leave as you see fit).

I've had six cars over the years, five of which were sticks. I find the Stang to be smooth to shift, but not what I could call "fast" or "quick". My previous cars were all 4 bangers and I found that you needed quick shifting to really keep the RPMs up to be "fast:. With the Stang, I dont feel it to be the same way. There is so torque that smooth shifting seems to be more important than "quick". My impression so far has been that when you try to be quick in the Stang, it feels like you are forcing. With anything mechanical, forcing is bad

Thats just my impressions when comparing Quick vs Smooth. My Stang shifts smooth, but not quick compared to some other cars.

As far as other shifting "do's and don't", there is alot of debate as you can see. Personally, heres my take:

- I dont leave the car in gear and press the cluch pedal to the floor for extended periods of time (lights, Stopped traffic, Drive Throughs, etc). This is a habit from my MGB, its bad to do that in an old british car. Todays cars might be more forgiving, but its not a good habit regardless.

- Downshifting is good fun to learn, and its definately a "feeling" thing. If you really want to get tricky, you can double clutch when you down shift (but again, its not really needed these days, but in my MGB its mandatory!). This is basically pressing the clutch pedal down, moving to neutral, lifting the clutch pedal, reving the engine to match the engine and clutch spin speeds, pressing the clutch pedal down, shifting into a lower gear (one below where you were), then finally releasing the cluch pedal as you rev the motor to match the RPMs with the clutch as it spins. Why would you do all this? You dont really need to anymore, thats what the syncros do for us. But if you drive an old car that doesnt have syncros, then its mandatory if you want to downshift without crunching or grinding a gear. Its a habit thing for me, I do it without thinking anymore. I found that it really made me think about shifting, and be very aware of whats going on. Once you get it down, it is so automatic you dont think about it. It might be good to try (away from traffic of course) to get a feel. You prolly would never use it seriously, but it might help get a feel for normal modern day downshifting (plus you can get the feel for what performance driving without syncros is like )

- Shifting before a corner. Assuming we are taking a corner at speed (30+ MPH), I always downshift prior to a corner, keep the RPMs at the bottom end of the power range. If you go in to the corner in too high of a gear, then the RPMs will be low and you will typically feel understeer (where the car doesnt want to turn and you have to turn "harder" unbalancing the car in a sense). Its often easier to take a corner if the RPMs are up a bit (2500+ RPM or so in a Stang). This way, as you go through the corner, you can use the gas pedal to assist with cornering. Again something to practice without traffic around, but basically, you can induce understeer or oversteer (where the car wants to turn more than you asked it to) as needed using the pedal. Combined with Heal Toe techique, this can been really fun, and will really show you what driving a stick is all about. In addition, if you enter the corner at a mid range RPM, then as you exit the turn, you can accelerate the car out of the corner (which is fun and feels good). Again, practice when you are not in traffic.

- Another thing to practice is being smooth. Through practiced clutch and gas pedal operations, I typcially shift up or down gears without passengers noticing, without the car showing any visible indications of gear change. In fact, my co-worker was amazed how smooth the shifting was vs how he shifts in his 350z (he doenst have the knack to shift smooth). Its all about practice practice practice. Listening to the motor will really help with smooth driving. I rarely watch my RPM gauge, I can hear when to shift. Obviously when you get on it, there will be a noticed change when you shift, I am thinking about your day to day normal driving (ie your foot is not mashing the gas pedal to the floor!).

- Another piece of info I learned from driving school was "If you Spin, Two Feet In". What this means is, if you have lost complete control (ie all four wheels are loose and no longer holding any traction to the road), it is best to press both feet on the clutch (left foot) and brake pedals (right foot). You dont want to leave the car in gear while spinning (bad things could happen to your tranny). Some people will say dont brake, but I am from the mindset that once you are in a full spin, coming to a stop is more imporant than trying to pull out of an uncontroled spin. For the record, I have spun more than once (on and off the track), two feet in has worked for me when I pushed to 101% by accident I dont say "go intentionally spin", but its better to store this in the back of your mind in case it ever happens, then not know and have bad things happen.

- Lastly, forcing is always bad. You should never have to force the tranny into gear. If you feel like it doesnt want to go in for some reason, drop to neutral, take your foot off the clutch a sec, and give the motor a blip of power. This will resycn the motor to the clutch speed. Remember to press down the clutch pedal before trying the gear again, but it should slip right in once you do. Shifting without usiing the clutch is possible, but it sounds horriable, and doesnt do anything good to your tranny (not to mention your syncros). I wouldnt recommend it ever unless you have no choice (even then, I would prolly park over trying to drive like that). I had to do it once in my MGB when the clutch master cylinder died on me. It wasnt pleasent to say the least Also, if you find you grind the gears when you shift, its most likely that you are trying to go too fast through the steps of shifting. Just slow down and think about what you are doing. Keep it smooth, dont force, and it should all be good.

Thats just some tidbits to add. Rather than re-itterate what others said, I figured hit some points that werent mentioned. To me, the key to driving a manual tranny really well is to keep it smooth. With time, Smooth will translate into fast. Just take it slow and enjoy the ride!

atomicskiier01

Stoopy & Spdrcr,
First, thank you both very much for your posts, they are extremely helpful. I'm glad that everyone is being nice enough to offer this wealth of information instead of making comments like "You bought a Mustang and don't know how to drive stick????" I've heard that comment enough over the past 4 months of waiting. Well, now that I actually have my car, and CAN drive it, they can all go cry in their automatic compact cars (ok, ok...my junker is a 1996 cavalier..but still...).

I completely understand what you mean now about this car not being a "fast" shifter, or that its a "heavy" shifter. You guys explained very well the function of the synchros and aligning of the teeth (I'm a Mechanical Engineer, so I SHOULD know this). If I go to upshift and place the shifter in the entrance to the gear with a small amount of force, and I just wait a split second for the synchro to do its thing, then the shifter basically falls into gear. The time that I noticed the hard shifting most was when I was really trying to bang through the gears.

Thanks for all of the great tips on driving stick, lets keep 'em coming!

RadBOSS

An interesting wrap up and good points by Spdrcr ... not sure I agree with his spin recovery technique though.

To comment on the additional question that was posted, I too have complained about the draggy / notchy feel of shifting the TREMEC in the GT. Mine has 6,000 on it and its not loosened up (smoothed out) a bit. The local dealer service manager and I took a drive in a new 06 and its every bit the same as my 05 for feel. Being a heavy duty design (TREMEC still consider this a light duty trans as they do for all their car transmissions) has nothing to do with shifting smoothness. The old Ford top loader in the BOSS is considered a heavy duty trans ... I can go thru the gears on that as smooth and quick as any auto trans ever could. Syncro technology has been around a really long time, and for what ever reason TREMEC does not have it right on this transmission design.

Stoopy

Agreed, this is one of the more informative and enjoyable threads I've seen in a car forum - the lack of negative responses etc., speaks well for the whole user base here.

On top of all the tips, advice and info above, heck the only other thing I can think of is relate some funny stories illustrating some things NOT to do with a stick that you wouldn't think of ahead of time. On the subject of coasting neutral, particularly (which I didn't know was illegal, and pretty hard to enforce) this story relates why it's a bad idea sometimes...

Back in the mid-80's I had a cool little '81 Fiat X/1-9 with the 1.5L FI engine and a five-speed. If you don't know the type, it's a wedge-shaped little two-seater Italian car with a mid-engine arrangement, like a poor man's Ferrari, or the inspiration for the Toyota MR-2. It'd scoot around pretty good, not fast, but when you can corner at the same speed you drive at, you don't need gobs of torque. Great car - actually this was my second one, I liked 'em that much.

Every weekend I went back and forth between school in San Bernardino (CA) and the high desert (Victorville/Apple Valley area) where I worked Friday thru Sunday. So every Sunday night, usually pretty late, I'd have the whole 15 freeway to myself to play around on, and there's a large grade called the Cajon Pass with a pretty steep angle. Starts out with a straight downgrade, then sweeps right, straightens out, then sweeps waaayyyyy long around to the left.

So I got in the habit, probably started by constantly running on fumes in those days, of throwing the trans in neutral over the top of the pass. Got it timed just right so it'd slow to juuust the legal limit over the top and then start picking up speed....the car was light, so it didn't build up to anything super-illegal, but by the time you got to the bottom a few minutes later, you were definitely screamin'. I also found out another benefit (this is my theory at least): with a water-cooled mid-engine arrangement, and a radiator wayy up in the front, with the engine at idle there was so little pressure from the water pump that the coolant just didn't flow so well....so with cool desert nights, the coolant in the radiator up front just fell to nothing, and when you put it back in 5th gear and stepped on the gas to start climbing the slight upgrade that came next, all that nicely-cooled coolant would rush back, hit the engine, and it must have made for a much denser air/fuel charge in the intake because for a couple of miles, that car would just TAKE OFF with your foot only partly on the throttle....cool!!!! I could be wrong about what the reason for this was, but I'll say it felt like I had twice as much motor as I really did - and you get to know the nuances of small cars like this real well!

So one Sunday night it's about 3:00 AM or so and I'm punchy as all get-out on the way back down the hill, and coming over the pass I throw it in neutral like always. I start thinking about my cold-coolant theory and - the light in my head comes on!! Yeah! If IDLE is good, then STOPPED must be better!!! Even LESS coolant circulation, of course!!! Sheer JEENYUS!

So with that I just reached up and turned that ol' ignition key OFF. I was already through the right-hand sweeping turn when I did this, so I just settled back for the long straight downhill run, and that car tracked nice and straight......nothing to do but sit back, listen to the wind rushing by the open top, and take it all in.....

Now, my previous car had been my '66 Mustang Fastback which was quite a bit older and with none of those modern-day goodies and doodads, such as a steering wheel which locked in place when you shut the key off. And you may recall, back in the days when they became a standard option, that locking steering wheel would sometimes refuse to budge and you had to jiggle the key around a bit and work the wheel...usually the harder you tried to force it, the more stuck it stayed....still that way today, sometimes.....

Well I found this out at the end of the straightaway when it came time to start through that long left-hand sweeping turn. Gently guiding the wheel to the left didn't work....cripes how fast am I going?!...let's try two hands....what the.....Stuck!...STUUUCCKK!!!!! Well of course, the dang ignition key is off, ya dum bass!!!!!!! Oh man and it's doing that thing where it don't wanna turn!

So now its a panicked wrestling match with an ignition key that won't switch on, a steering wheel that won't budge, and the side of the freeway coming up fast...I'm wrestling with the key, back and forth, sawing back and forth on the steering wheel, looking at moonlit sagebrush and rocks on the downhill slope of the side of the road coming up fast at about a 30-degree angle and considering just jumping out the open T-top......and finally, just about at the same time that my butt cheeks had bitten a hole clean through the kinda-leather-covered seat, the key flicks over, the steering wheel comes left and with a few swerves and cusses I straighten it all out.

Took me about another mile, I think, to calm down and get around to hitting the starter and putting it back into gear....young, dumb and lucky!

Night Raven

I make frequent trips on a 55mph road with lots of curves and straights and VERY little traffic. plus, the road is in amazing condition. needless to say, i've had some fun and have been pulled over only once. the only things to watch out for are darting squirrels, an occasional deer, or a slow moving tractor. there is rarely a car in sight though. dream road? you bet! and it's on the way to my girl's place!

driving this road i've often thought about shift points and long runs running at certain RPM's. i usually keep it in fourth around 60mph to give myself enough power on the hills. sometimes the RPMs get up to 3000-4000 and stay for a while. is this bad? i've pushed the car to 90mph before in fourth, but i know that isn't good for long periods.

so i guess my question is: is it better to stay revved high (4000) for long periods, or really low (4th vs. 5th gear)?

Shea

"Good" for your engine is a very relative term. Running at 4000rpm will put more wear on your engine than running it at 2000rpm. A lot more? No. Running your engine at ANY speed is technically not "good" for it.

But, that being said, there is nothing inherently wrong with running at 4000rpm. Yes, it will wear it out a bit more and your gas mileage will suffer, but it's not terrible for your engine or anything.

I topped mine out in 4th gear so that I would still be within the powerband once I shifted into 5th on the way to my 148mph run.

Oh, and here's something that I don't think has been mentioned much on this thread: Powershifting.

If we are going to talk about the Stang being hard to shift, then let's mention powershifting. Powershifting will give you your lowest possible ETs on the track, so it is definitely a performance technique.

It is not super-easy to do on the Stang, but it is a lot easier to do on the 1-2 shift than the 2-3 shift. Anyone notice this? I think this applies to a lot of cars, not just this specific tranny.

Someone above mentioned the passengers not noticing the shifting. I guess I look at it different...if my passengers aren't noticing my shifting, then my foot isn't in the gas enough!

That's probably just me though, my car gets terrible mileage because of my driving habits. I love to go fast, all the time!

Unfortunately it's getting to be like winter here in Michigan, so I can't get my 10 second bike out of the garage.

Boomer

Powershifting or Speedshifting as in...keeping it floored between shifts...

I'm too scared to try that one Shea

davebizzle

Hey Stoopy you told a nice little story there, had me laughing a good bit. I know about the Cajon pass because I live in Victorville and go to school at csusb. That's one knarly hill to have the wheel stuck! hhaha wow you got lucky there. nice story.

Stoopy

Thanks bud - glad ya enjoyed it....and glad you know the exact spot there. CSUSB is where I went to school as well - Monday through Thursday sharing a dorm room, Thursday night I'd pack up my things and head up home to work Friday thru Sunday at a metal finishing shop. Daily commute's gotta be kinda tiring I guess, but hey you got a great car for it huh?

The High Desert was a GREAT place back then to learn how to drive and to experiment with your first car....oh the trouble we used to get in!!!

Stay safe & good luck in school, amigo!

Dan

Unless you are a hard-core dragger, I'm not sure why you'd want to do that to your car....poor synchros

RadBOSS

Well guys and Gals I found some time today to do some research direct with TREMEC Technical and discuss the shifting characteristics of the 3650 trans. It was a very fruitful discussion and for the moment has changed my view of this transmission.

One item discussed was the transmission oil. Earlier above (or was it another thread?) someone indicated their trans was really taking a dump at about 30,000 miles. They indicated that had changed to Mobil 1 ATF along the way and his problems only got worse. The TREMEC tech indicates the very best oil for this trans is the Ford recommended Mercon / Dextron III. Mobil 1 ATF and the other ATF oils have a different combination of additives and components that affect the slickness of the oil as well. Some of these other oil additives (not pointing to Mobil 1 here) are detrimental to components of the trans (the carbon fiber bushing on the syncro ring and the adhesive that bonds it to the ring). TREMEC's recommendation ... stay with Mercon / Dextron III. Also for the syncros, slicker fluid is not better ... it can actually degrade the engagement characteristics.

As a point of interest, the syncros in this trans are the very same design for the Mustangs that preceded the 05 GT.

What I walked away from my discussion with TREMEC is the shifter is more the culprit than the trans, though it seems the trans is not completely innocent. The Corvette uses a similar external shifter and they are apparently complaining as well. The hot rod Cadillac has an external shifter too. TREMEC could not comment why Ford or GM insisted in this design, but it looks like it is here to stay (remember how long it took Ford to get away from the wonderful split I beam front suspension they were so pround of on their trucks?). TREMEC's tech's theory on the shift roughness is it is related to the external shifter and any flex or looseness it has results in a negative way the shifting action feels. They have a mule GT that was used for development work and for warranty assessment for Ford. Apparently they installed a prototype Hurst shifter a long time ago and his perception is that trans shifts better with this shifter that the Ford one. The stiffer bushings like Steeda has may help as well ... anyway I will probably be trying one out.

Anyway I thought I would share this and maybe dispel any myths.

atomicskiier01

Thanks RadBOSS....if the transmission manufacturer is willing to admit that it is a deisgn flaw, I guess that means there is noting wrong (per se) with my car. Nice job on digging this info up!!!

Boomer

Great info paul!

Hubec

Because there may be quite a few manual newbies reading this I just want to make one important point about downshifting prior to turns. If you perform a normal downshift (putting the clutch in, selecting the lower gear, feathering the clutch out to bring RPM back up) the car will do two things; the rear wheels will act as if they were braked lightly, and the car's weight will transfer forward. These two things mean that the rear tires are more likely to break loose. This is fine if it's done in a straight line, but it can result in a spin if you do it in the turn itself. Essentially it's the same thing as lightly applying the emergency brake. All this goes to say that if you downshift in this manner before a corner be certain that you are completely finished the manuver prior to turn in.