If new GT is really only 300hp at production
7/23/04, 02:11 PM
#82
Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by kevinb120@July 23, 2004, 1:59 PM
A. The neon makes 0 RWHP. And B. Hp is nothing without low rpm torque. The only time it is fast if it is under CONTROLLED, PLANNED launches under ideal conditions, you can not just be fiddling with the radio in gear and decide its 'go time'. Its just not there. Not to mention those controlled, planned acceleration runs torture the vehicle, there is no long-term with the neon platform, they are generally lousy cars overall. For a few kicks on a tight budget, it IS a fast little car, but it will never be a brute. You quickly grow tired of a car you have to work so hard to go fast in. I have had several small hyper cars, and they get boring unless they are designed top to bottom to be a sports car, i.e. a modded miata is thoroughly fun, a fast rental compact is not. The neon was never engineered for more then 150hp. In all fairness, the Fox platform really wasn't either.
Not to be just a compact/import hater, this is the same reason I did not take delivery on my 04 cobra either. The car is definately FAST, but it did so at the expense of being too nervous, the power is too much for the chassis design to be FUN to drive, the ergos stink, and it grows tiring quick. Its all about balance, thats why I profess the 01 cobra and 03-04 Machs as the best Fox bodies ever made, and not the Terminator. Same thing that makes the SVT focus fun overall to drive, you KNOW its not a drag-strip terror, but its balance and control in turns without mental strain at the limits makes it a worthy purchase. I havent bothered with anything other then a few breathing mods, I think the car would loose its luster if you were to turbo it, I dont have an inadequacy complex that forces me to have to make my cars out to be more then what they really are. Its all about you being able to drive the car and put it where you want it, and not hanging on and hoping it works out OR getting beat up over it.
As far as f-bodies go, ive driven SS's with a 150 shot and other mods on them, its complete and utter lack of any sense of quality whatsoever belies any enjoyment. It just feels like fast moving junk. It was my constant experience with those that actually made mustangs feel like high-quality vehcicles. What god-awful cars, they feel like an unrestored 67 coupe with a brand new crate Nascar motor in it. Balance is key, and fast is a relative term. And as for GM's future with the Camaro, they are so directionless right now, I will believe it when I see it.
A. The neon makes 0 RWHP. And B. Hp is nothing without low rpm torque. The only time it is fast if it is under CONTROLLED, PLANNED launches under ideal conditions, you can not just be fiddling with the radio in gear and decide its 'go time'. Its just not there. Not to mention those controlled, planned acceleration runs torture the vehicle, there is no long-term with the neon platform, they are generally lousy cars overall. For a few kicks on a tight budget, it IS a fast little car, but it will never be a brute. You quickly grow tired of a car you have to work so hard to go fast in. I have had several small hyper cars, and they get boring unless they are designed top to bottom to be a sports car, i.e. a modded miata is thoroughly fun, a fast rental compact is not. The neon was never engineered for more then 150hp. In all fairness, the Fox platform really wasn't either.
Not to be just a compact/import hater, this is the same reason I did not take delivery on my 04 cobra either. The car is definately FAST, but it did so at the expense of being too nervous, the power is too much for the chassis design to be FUN to drive, the ergos stink, and it grows tiring quick. Its all about balance, thats why I profess the 01 cobra and 03-04 Machs as the best Fox bodies ever made, and not the Terminator. Same thing that makes the SVT focus fun overall to drive, you KNOW its not a drag-strip terror, but its balance and control in turns without mental strain at the limits makes it a worthy purchase. I havent bothered with anything other then a few breathing mods, I think the car would loose its luster if you were to turbo it, I dont have an inadequacy complex that forces me to have to make my cars out to be more then what they really are. Its all about you being able to drive the car and put it where you want it, and not hanging on and hoping it works out OR getting beat up over it.
As far as f-bodies go, ive driven SS's with a 150 shot and other mods on them, its complete and utter lack of any sense of quality whatsoever belies any enjoyment. It just feels like fast moving junk. It was my constant experience with those that actually made mustangs feel like high-quality vehcicles. What god-awful cars, they feel like an unrestored 67 coupe with a brand new crate Nascar motor in it. Balance is key, and fast is a relative term. And as for GM's future with the Camaro, they are so directionless right now, I will believe it when I see it.
7/23/04, 04:19 PM
#83
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Originally posted by Badandy+July 23, 2004, 11:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Badandy @ July 23, 2004, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Yeah,but, the Z is still a "french" product (Nissan controlling interest owned by Peuguot), disguised as a Japanese product!
BOYCOTT FRANCE!!!........BUY AMERICAN
Originally posted by NolanzDad@July 22, 2004, 10:36 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Tony Alonso
<!--QuoteBegin-Tony Alonso
@July 22, 2004, 3:41 PM
It is rumored the '05 350Z will sport 300hp...not sure on the price yet.
It is rumored the '05 350Z will sport 300hp...not sure on the price yet.
Yeah,but, the Z is still a "french" product (Nissan controlling interest owned by Peuguot), disguised as a Japanese product!
BOYCOTT FRANCE!!!........BUY AMERICAN
REALLY!!......you can include Infiniti also, since they're also part of Nissan.
7/23/04, 04:42 PM
#85
Cobra R Member
Originally posted by Nathan@July 23, 2004, 6:49 PM
390cid 4V V-8 320 hp S Code
Right off of Brad's site, this was in 1967, and it wasn't a SE
390cid 4V V-8 320 hp S Code
Right off of Brad's site, this was in 1967, and it wasn't a SE
7/23/04, 04:45 PM
#87
Originally posted by TampaBear67+July 23, 2004, 5:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TampaBear67 @ July 23, 2004, 5:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nathan@July 23, 2004, 6:49 PM
390cid 4V V-8 320 hp S Code
Right off of Brad's site, this was in 1967, and it wasn't a SE
390cid 4V V-8 320 hp S Code
Right off of Brad's site, this was in 1967, and it wasn't a SE
Thats barely as powerfull as the current 4.6
7/23/04, 05:09 PM
#88
Dethroned Nascar Guru
Did a quick search of the internet to see if anyone had dynoed a 390GT.
Got one hit with "193hp, 312trq". Didn't say whether it was a manual or auto or how many miles the old engine had, so the following should be taken with a grain of salt.
WAG is to multiply rwhp by 1.14 for manual and 1.26 auto (that is what my dyno sheet said). So that's between 220 and 243 hp and the flywheel.
For what its worth
Got one hit with "193hp, 312trq". Didn't say whether it was a manual or auto or how many miles the old engine had, so the following should be taken with a grain of salt.
WAG is to multiply rwhp by 1.14 for manual and 1.26 auto (that is what my dyno sheet said). So that's between 220 and 243 hp and the flywheel.
For what its worth
7/23/04, 06:52 PM
#89
Originally posted by Nathan@July 23, 2004, 12:49 PM
390cid 4V V-8 320 hp S Code
Right off of Brad's site, this was in 1967, and it wasn't a SE
390cid 4V V-8 320 hp S Code
Right off of Brad's site, this was in 1967, and it wasn't a SE
Starting in 1972 all US manufacturs agreed to use SAE Net HP ratings. In SAE net, the engine must be tested EXACTLY the way it will be installed in the car. This includes the air filter and air induction, alternator, P/S, A/C and full exhaust system including mufflers and cats.
That 320 HP S code 390 probably has less then 270 SAE net HP.
7/23/04, 06:56 PM
#90
Originally posted by TomServo92@July 23, 2004, 3:14 PM
I'm with you Kevin. When I went car shopping earlier this year I had my sights set on a Mazda 6 but decided to drive the competition for comparison. I test drove a Nissan Altima 3.5SE and was very disappointed. Not only was interior crap compared to the 6, the car felt "nervous", especially under hard acceleration and at highway speeds. While the 6 may have been down 20HP to the Altima, it drove like a more complete and balanced package. I think the Altima's engine completely overwhelms the rest of the car.
I'm with you Kevin. When I went car shopping earlier this year I had my sights set on a Mazda 6 but decided to drive the competition for comparison. I test drove a Nissan Altima 3.5SE and was very disappointed. Not only was interior crap compared to the 6, the car felt "nervous", especially under hard acceleration and at highway speeds. While the 6 may have been down 20HP to the Altima, it drove like a more complete and balanced package. I think the Altima's engine completely overwhelms the rest of the car.
I thought it was in the 'interior plastics quality' thread(for obvious reasons for that THAT car). I took our 3.5 SE out for a spin tonite and did a review, check it out and see if you agree:http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index....pic=3510&st=40
7/23/04, 07:14 PM
#91
Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by dustindu4@July 22, 2004, 7:47 PM
350Z is 287 hp, but like only 250lb torque. Plus it's a 6 banger
350Z is 287 hp, but like only 250lb torque. Plus it's a 6 banger
7/23/04, 07:17 PM
#92
Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by NolanzDad+July 22, 2004, 10:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (NolanzDad @ July 22, 2004, 10:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Tony Alonso@July 22, 2004, 3:41 PM
It is rumored the '05 350Z will sport 300hp...not sure on the price yet.
It is rumored the '05 350Z will sport 300hp...not sure on the price yet.
BOYCOTT FRANCE!!!........BUY AMERICAN [/b][/quote]
The engineers who designed it were Japanese, not French. The plant where it is built is in Japan, not France. If controlling interest in a company was enough to transform its "nationality" then Mazda would be American now.
7/23/04, 07:27 PM
#93
Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by kevinb120@July 23, 2004, 1:59 PM
Not to be just a compact/import hater, this is the same reason I did not take delivery on my 04 cobra either. The car is definately FAST, but it did so at the expense of being too nervous, the power is too much for the chassis design to be FUN to drive, the ergos stink, and it grows tiring quick. Its all about balance, thats why I profess the 01 cobra and 03-04 Machs as the best Fox bodies ever made, and not the Terminator.
Not to be just a compact/import hater, this is the same reason I did not take delivery on my 04 cobra either. The car is definately FAST, but it did so at the expense of being too nervous, the power is too much for the chassis design to be FUN to drive, the ergos stink, and it grows tiring quick. Its all about balance, thats why I profess the 01 cobra and 03-04 Machs as the best Fox bodies ever made, and not the Terminator.
At any rate, for about $28K for the vehicle I drove, 390hp was entertaining. I do hope the new GT is well underrated...
7/23/04, 07:41 PM
#94
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Originally posted by Tony Alonso+July 23, 2004, 8:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Tony Alonso @ July 23, 2004, 8:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Yeah,but, the Z is still a "french" product (Nissan controlling interest owned by Peuguot), disguised as a Japanese product!
BOYCOTT FRANCE!!!........BUY AMERICAN
Originally posted by NolanzDad@July 22, 2004, 10:36 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Tony Alonso
<!--QuoteBegin-Tony Alonso
@July 22, 2004, 3:41 PM
It is rumored the '05 350Z will sport 300hp...not sure on the price yet.
It is rumored the '05 350Z will sport 300hp...not sure on the price yet.
Yeah,but, the Z is still a "french" product (Nissan controlling interest owned by Peuguot), disguised as a Japanese product!
BOYCOTT FRANCE!!!........BUY AMERICAN
"controlling interest" translates to "we control the purse strings AND THE PROFITS! In this case, THE FRENCH WIN!
7/24/04, 07:27 AM
#97
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I'm gonna chime in here. For one the current SRT-4 is rated at 230hp/250ft-lbs. It's been known to dyno that high stock, however the only dyno sheet I've seen of a stock one dyno'd at 220hp. So it's probably underated a little but 270 sounds a bit extreme. As far as it's just a neon, get something new. Just like the mustang it's not a sports car. It's affordable performance. If you want cheap hp numbers, go buy a truck. It's not about hp, its about power-to-weight. I couldn't care if the GT had 200 hp, if it was 2000 lbs then I'd still be content. 300 hp is good for the weight, but I'm a speed freak, so the more the better. However I don't have endless pockets to I buy what I can afford.
I don't know who said it but it was along the lines of turbo cars and high compression ratio isn't good. Well for the most part most of these turbo cars have lower compression than most of the the 4 cylinders out there. Especially the STi and Evo.
Let's knock down some myths. (MSRP only) I'm only comparing the lowest models with the highest engines in them. This is for Bang for Buck purposes only
20.9K for the Neon SRT-4 230/250 (13.9-14.1 tested)
32.9K for the 300C: The Hemi is STANDARD in that trim 340/390 (13.9-14.1 tested)
29.9K for the Magnum R/T: The Hemi is STANDARD in that trim (I haven't seen the tests yet but I assume it is within spitting distance of the 300C)
31.5K for the STi: 300/300 (13.1-13.3)
29.5K for the Evo: 271/273 (13.4-13.7 tested)
26.4K for the 350Z 287/274 (14.1-14.4 tested)
What does all of this mean. I'm trying to be as objective as I can and SOME of you should try too. Don't take offense, I wasn't talking to everyone.
No the mustang won't be the only car under 30K that will get you 300 HP. As Ford said it, it will be the most accessible 300 HP. As far as the Neon SRT-4 being unreliable? The motor has handled 500WHP on stock internals. There's not too many 4.6's doing that. The engine has proven itself very reliable in the drag racing aspect. The clutch and drivetrain is bullet-proof, has a limited slip and looks good for a sport compact. Yeah its still a neon, and to be honest, just as I wouldn't buy a base neon, you wouldn't catch me dead in a V6 mustang. On the other hand, even on the SRT-4 with all of its bells and whistles the interior quality is god awful, the Viper seats and the boost guage are great but everything else is pretty bad. The leather lined seats feel like plastic. There's no hiding it when you're behind the wheel, it feels like a neon. It handles well and torque steer seems to be non-existant. It has most of the things stock, that most of us would add. 17's, big brakes, great rubber, sport buckets, great exhaust(meanest sounding 4 I've ever heard). Also, any motor that comes Turbo from the factory is a lot easier/cheaper to get power out of than an NA motor. 12's in an SRT-4 is $1k-2k away. Ofcourse the 4.6 has way more potential with twice the displacement, but for the average enthusiast thats going to do the basic performance upgrades the turbo car will probably get you more bang for the buck.
I think the SRT-4 is a competitor of the Mustang, just like every other car that is performance oriented, +/- $5K. If they can keep the GT around 25k, most people that are willing to spend 21k will probably shop the GT too. Just like I did when I test drove the 03 GT. I ended up buying my GTI instead, because I was unimpressed with the performance and turned off by the interior. I own an SRT-4 too but thats for the wife. Just like most of the other import guys out there, bang for buck is the name of the game and if the GT is as good as I'm anticipating then the pony car crowd can add another to the family. Most of the import crowd is growing up and ready to spend some more money and speed is the key. If Ford gets it right, they will have a lot of new customers.
I don't know who said it but it was along the lines of turbo cars and high compression ratio isn't good. Well for the most part most of these turbo cars have lower compression than most of the the 4 cylinders out there. Especially the STi and Evo.
Let's knock down some myths. (MSRP only) I'm only comparing the lowest models with the highest engines in them. This is for Bang for Buck purposes only
20.9K for the Neon SRT-4 230/250 (13.9-14.1 tested)
32.9K for the 300C: The Hemi is STANDARD in that trim 340/390 (13.9-14.1 tested)
29.9K for the Magnum R/T: The Hemi is STANDARD in that trim (I haven't seen the tests yet but I assume it is within spitting distance of the 300C)
31.5K for the STi: 300/300 (13.1-13.3)
29.5K for the Evo: 271/273 (13.4-13.7 tested)
26.4K for the 350Z 287/274 (14.1-14.4 tested)
What does all of this mean. I'm trying to be as objective as I can and SOME of you should try too. Don't take offense, I wasn't talking to everyone.
No the mustang won't be the only car under 30K that will get you 300 HP. As Ford said it, it will be the most accessible 300 HP. As far as the Neon SRT-4 being unreliable? The motor has handled 500WHP on stock internals. There's not too many 4.6's doing that. The engine has proven itself very reliable in the drag racing aspect. The clutch and drivetrain is bullet-proof, has a limited slip and looks good for a sport compact. Yeah its still a neon, and to be honest, just as I wouldn't buy a base neon, you wouldn't catch me dead in a V6 mustang. On the other hand, even on the SRT-4 with all of its bells and whistles the interior quality is god awful, the Viper seats and the boost guage are great but everything else is pretty bad. The leather lined seats feel like plastic. There's no hiding it when you're behind the wheel, it feels like a neon. It handles well and torque steer seems to be non-existant. It has most of the things stock, that most of us would add. 17's, big brakes, great rubber, sport buckets, great exhaust(meanest sounding 4 I've ever heard). Also, any motor that comes Turbo from the factory is a lot easier/cheaper to get power out of than an NA motor. 12's in an SRT-4 is $1k-2k away. Ofcourse the 4.6 has way more potential with twice the displacement, but for the average enthusiast thats going to do the basic performance upgrades the turbo car will probably get you more bang for the buck.
I think the SRT-4 is a competitor of the Mustang, just like every other car that is performance oriented, +/- $5K. If they can keep the GT around 25k, most people that are willing to spend 21k will probably shop the GT too. Just like I did when I test drove the 03 GT. I ended up buying my GTI instead, because I was unimpressed with the performance and turned off by the interior. I own an SRT-4 too but thats for the wife. Just like most of the other import guys out there, bang for buck is the name of the game and if the GT is as good as I'm anticipating then the pony car crowd can add another to the family. Most of the import crowd is growing up and ready to spend some more money and speed is the key. If Ford gets it right, they will have a lot of new customers.
7/24/04, 07:52 AM
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If you ever worked on cars in a body shop situation you would really wonder why anyone would want a three hundred horsepower neon. This car should be left as cheap transportation, yes you can make it fast and handle well, but please dont wreck it. I have seen these cars destroyed by average impact that other cars would recover from with less than major damage. If the new mustang follows the trend of the new 150 safety will be so much better. Speed is the key but lets all live to enjoy it.
7/24/04, 08:29 AM
#99
Originally posted by tangs3@July 24, 2004, 8:55 AM
If you ever worked on cars in a body shop situation you would really wonder why anyone would want a three hundred horsepower neon. This car should be left as cheap transportation, yes you can make it fast and handle well, but please dont wreck it. I have seen these cars destroyed by average impact that other cars would recover from with less than major damage. If the new mustang follows the trend of the new 150 safety will be so much better. Speed is the key but lets all live to enjoy it.
If you ever worked on cars in a body shop situation you would really wonder why anyone would want a three hundred horsepower neon. This car should be left as cheap transportation, yes you can make it fast and handle well, but please dont wreck it. I have seen these cars destroyed by average impact that other cars would recover from with less than major damage. If the new mustang follows the trend of the new 150 safety will be so much better. Speed is the key but lets all live to enjoy it.
7/24/04, 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by kevinb120+July 24, 2004, 8:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kevinb120 @ July 24, 2004, 8:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-tangs3@July 24, 2004, 8:55 AM
If you ever worked on cars in a body shop situation you would really wonder why anyone would want a three hundred horsepower neon. This car should be left as cheap transportation, yes you can make it fast and handle well, but please dont wreck it. I have seen these cars destroyed by average impact that other cars would recover from with less than major damage. If the new mustang follows the trend of the new 150 safety will be so much better. Speed is the key but lets all live to enjoy it.
If you ever worked on cars in a body shop situation you would really wonder why anyone would want a three hundred horsepower neon. This car should be left as cheap transportation, yes you can make it fast and handle well, but please dont wreck it. I have seen these cars destroyed by average impact that other cars would recover from with less than major damage. If the new mustang follows the trend of the new 150 safety will be so much better. Speed is the key but lets all live to enjoy it.
I couldn't agree with you more. Some would argue that you could say the same about the SN95. Reliability, ergonomics, looks, price, competition, safety, fuel economy, and maintenance(cost to own), etc are all things to consider when deciding on a good value. Even if you're a performance enthusiast. Ford is stepping trying to step up the game which is long overdue and the even harder part is shaking that image.
It's all relative I guess. They have safety standards for a reason and when I'm shopping for a car as long as I haven't heard any horror stories I don't really worry about it too much or I'd buy a Volvo. I mean even when I heard about the gas tank issue on the mustang, it didn't have any bearing on my interest/purchase when I test drove it.
I'm not sure if you are complaining about the occupants safety in an accident or the cost of repair. Are you comparing it to other compacts or every car you've ever seen? Usually if a car crumples front/back really well and the maintains the structure of the cockpit(for lack of a better word) then it did what it was designed to do, absorb most of the impact. If you are talking about cost then thats a different story. They say SUV's cost per impact is horrid, but people don't care about that when shopping for a new vehicle.
Should I even start on the previous generation(F-150) impact issues? heck my GTI is considered one of the safest cars around, side impact airbags are standard. Once I made up my mind to buy it, the safety was just an added bonus. Actually, the attitude/conduct of the salesman had much more impact on my purchase. Oh and side impact airbags are available on the SRT-4. I've seen firsthand the danger of convertibles, but it doesn't mean the car is JUNK.
I've never been in an accident because of how much power is in a car so I'm not sure how that would have any bearing on how they fare in an accident. I've never gone to a body shop to find out which cars I should avoid either.