Serious Fuel Supply Issue
6/17/11, 11:28 AM
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Serious Fuel Supply Issue
Seeing as this is my first post on this forum I would like to start by thanking all of the many users for their contributions to this forum. I have learned alot from you and appreciate your insights.
Now to discuss the issue I experienced at a very tight track last weekend. At the beginning of the day on Saturday all was well I was learning the track and gradually increasing my speed. In early afternoon I noticed that after exiting several tight left hand corners that the car would begin to stumble (not on corner exit) but once I hammered the gas on the straight sections. As day the went on the problem got worse.
I talked with a fellow competitor that had a 2011 Mustang GT and asked him if he was experiencing the same problem at this track and initially he didn't think so but later in the day he came to me and said he was experiencing the same problem just not as severe as me.
After thinking about it for a while and playing with the traction control system, I came to the conclusion that the only source of this problem could be a fuel supply issue. I came to the track for our timed event on Sunday with a full tank of fuel and low and behold all was well again.
During the timed event on Sunday I really pushed the car and found that once the fuel tank got near 3/4 of a tank I would start to experience the problem again but only after exiting tight left hand turns.
My fellow competitor was running Hoosiers on Sunday in his Mustang GT and said he was experiencing the exact same problem and that his 2006 Mustang GT at this same track had no such problems even when his fuel tank got below 1/4.
Both of us brought gerry cans of fuel to the Sunday event and as long as we stayed well above 3/4 of a tank we were fine.
When I ran my Boss at my local track which has mostly right hand corners leading on the straight sections I did not experience this issue even well below 1/2 tank of fuel.
I do not think it is normal to have to keep your car over 3/4 full of fuel in order to be able to track it properly. I know Laguna Seca has quite a sharp left hand turn leading onto the main straight away and would be curious to know if anyone experienced this problem or whether Ford made sure all of the cars were always full of fuel before anyone drove them during the media event.
Comments?
P.S. Other than this issue and boiling my brakes the Boss is an absolute blast to drive at the track. We have quite a number of Porsches running this year in our time attack events and the older 911's don't stand a chance against the "BOSS". For those of you that haven't tracked your cars yet, do what ever it takes to try and get some track time. You won't regret it and you will have an even greater appreciation of what the Ford engineers did with this car.
Now to discuss the issue I experienced at a very tight track last weekend. At the beginning of the day on Saturday all was well I was learning the track and gradually increasing my speed. In early afternoon I noticed that after exiting several tight left hand corners that the car would begin to stumble (not on corner exit) but once I hammered the gas on the straight sections. As day the went on the problem got worse.
I talked with a fellow competitor that had a 2011 Mustang GT and asked him if he was experiencing the same problem at this track and initially he didn't think so but later in the day he came to me and said he was experiencing the same problem just not as severe as me.
After thinking about it for a while and playing with the traction control system, I came to the conclusion that the only source of this problem could be a fuel supply issue. I came to the track for our timed event on Sunday with a full tank of fuel and low and behold all was well again.
During the timed event on Sunday I really pushed the car and found that once the fuel tank got near 3/4 of a tank I would start to experience the problem again but only after exiting tight left hand turns.
My fellow competitor was running Hoosiers on Sunday in his Mustang GT and said he was experiencing the exact same problem and that his 2006 Mustang GT at this same track had no such problems even when his fuel tank got below 1/4.
Both of us brought gerry cans of fuel to the Sunday event and as long as we stayed well above 3/4 of a tank we were fine.
When I ran my Boss at my local track which has mostly right hand corners leading on the straight sections I did not experience this issue even well below 1/2 tank of fuel.
I do not think it is normal to have to keep your car over 3/4 full of fuel in order to be able to track it properly. I know Laguna Seca has quite a sharp left hand turn leading onto the main straight away and would be curious to know if anyone experienced this problem or whether Ford made sure all of the cars were always full of fuel before anyone drove them during the media event.
Comments?
P.S. Other than this issue and boiling my brakes the Boss is an absolute blast to drive at the track. We have quite a number of Porsches running this year in our time attack events and the older 911's don't stand a chance against the "BOSS". For those of you that haven't tracked your cars yet, do what ever it takes to try and get some track time. You won't regret it and you will have an even greater appreciation of what the Ford engineers did with this car.
6/17/11, 12:28 PM
#2
Very interested to hear more about this. Experienced similar problems on my 06 with Hoosiers and NT01s + gas levels under 1/2 a tank.
I thought the 11+ fuel pumps were supposed to have a cup or bowl around it to help keep fuel at the pickup.
I thought the 11+ fuel pumps were supposed to have a cup or bowl around it to help keep fuel at the pickup.
6/17/11, 12:49 PM
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It would be highly unusual for any kind of stumble to NOT produce an engine code. The ECU is actively monitoring for mis-fires and would immediately "report" on them. A lean fuel condition would definitely **** off the ECU and, as you might imagine, is a very dangerous situation for the car - because cylinders would be lean during this "event". Assuming you have no check engine light, I would have a tendency (with all due respect) to disagree with your assumed cause.
Could it be possible that this is traction control? Perhaps with a lighter fuel load, the traction control (thinks) it needs to step-in? Is traction control on or off?
Could it be possible that this is traction control? Perhaps with a lighter fuel load, the traction control (thinks) it needs to step-in? Is traction control on or off?
6/17/11, 01:04 PM
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Traction control was my first suspicion so I tried it in both Sport mode and totally off and neither had any effect.
A full tank of fuel always cured the problem and a 2011 Mustang GT had exactly the same problem which is why I am convinced it is a fuel supply issue.
Keep in mind we were at a very tight track and pushing the cars hard. I did not see any check engine light the whole weekend. I was as surprised as you that no engine codes appeared. I am also concerned the engine might have been running lean if even for relatively short periods of time.
A full tank of fuel always cured the problem and a 2011 Mustang GT had exactly the same problem which is why I am convinced it is a fuel supply issue.
Keep in mind we were at a very tight track and pushing the cars hard. I did not see any check engine light the whole weekend. I was as surprised as you that no engine codes appeared. I am also concerned the engine might have been running lean if even for relatively short periods of time.
6/17/11, 01:24 PM
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Canuck,
I love that you are tracking the car and all of your great enthusiasm!! Great to see/hear of your experiences!!
Hmmmmm... regarding the stumble it is perplexing. What has me mystified is that engine misfires (anything that is not a complete burn in a single cylinder) are generally very easy to detect by the ECU and also fairly serious... so there would be no buffering of the error codes - but just an immediate check engine light. The problem might very well be as you say - a fuel issue. In this case, Ford needs to jump on it. 3/4 of a tank doesn't seem very low to start causing problems... if you said 1/4 tank then sounds more plausible as a cause.
When you experience the problem do you think the car is on the verge of losing traction due to acceleration? I still would prefer to think it is a traction control issue where maybe "off" isn't "off". I like this problem better than the first scenario... but that doesn't mean that it is any more likely.
I'm motivated to help you fix the situation so i don't experience it when I have the chance to get to the track. LOL
I love that you are tracking the car and all of your great enthusiasm!! Great to see/hear of your experiences!!
Hmmmmm... regarding the stumble it is perplexing. What has me mystified is that engine misfires (anything that is not a complete burn in a single cylinder) are generally very easy to detect by the ECU and also fairly serious... so there would be no buffering of the error codes - but just an immediate check engine light. The problem might very well be as you say - a fuel issue. In this case, Ford needs to jump on it. 3/4 of a tank doesn't seem very low to start causing problems... if you said 1/4 tank then sounds more plausible as a cause.
When you experience the problem do you think the car is on the verge of losing traction due to acceleration? I still would prefer to think it is a traction control issue where maybe "off" isn't "off". I like this problem better than the first scenario... but that doesn't mean that it is any more likely.
I'm motivated to help you fix the situation so i don't experience it when I have the chance to get to the track. LOL
6/17/11, 01:40 PM
#7
Canuck, were you below 7500 rpm's? When you bang the rev limiter if feels just like what you are explaining? Just a thought.
Last edited by 2012YellowBoss; 6/17/11 at 01:44 PM.
6/17/11, 02:05 PM
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I appreciate your concern and I am posting this issue so that hopefully it will help other Boss owners on this forum. If Ford monitors this forum and can hopefully shed some light then that would be terrific!
I didn't mention that Sunday morning the track was wet and it was raining lightly and the car was getting sideways in almost every corner and the traction control did not cause the same stumble I was experiencing as the fuel level went down and the track dried out. The traction control in "sport mode" is absolutely brilliant, you can get the car very sideways before any intervention. Yes it cuts fuel but in a very controlled manner. It only cuts fuel while your car is going sideways and once the car straightens out you have full throttle available again.
My stumbling issue is not on corner exit when the car is likely to go sideways it is when you are hard on the throttle once the car is going absolutely straight. My theory is the fuel pump is getting starved during the hard corning but does not show up at the injectors until the car is going straight because there is still enough fuel left in the fuel lines.
I am not an expert on this subject by any means, I am just guessing what the problem might be and any input would be very welcome.
The good news is there is an easy fix. Keep the tank FULL! The bad news is you need to carry gerry cans with you when you run hard at tracks with tight left hand turns.
I didn't mention that Sunday morning the track was wet and it was raining lightly and the car was getting sideways in almost every corner and the traction control did not cause the same stumble I was experiencing as the fuel level went down and the track dried out. The traction control in "sport mode" is absolutely brilliant, you can get the car very sideways before any intervention. Yes it cuts fuel but in a very controlled manner. It only cuts fuel while your car is going sideways and once the car straightens out you have full throttle available again.
My stumbling issue is not on corner exit when the car is likely to go sideways it is when you are hard on the throttle once the car is going absolutely straight. My theory is the fuel pump is getting starved during the hard corning but does not show up at the injectors until the car is going straight because there is still enough fuel left in the fuel lines.
I am not an expert on this subject by any means, I am just guessing what the problem might be and any input would be very welcome.
The good news is there is an easy fix. Keep the tank FULL! The bad news is you need to carry gerry cans with you when you run hard at tracks with tight left hand turns.
6/17/11, 02:16 PM
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Scott,
I have never felt the rev limiter in this car yet. I have been keeping it well below 7500 because I only have about 2000 kms on it so far. I know why am I tracking it already. I cannot resist running this car at a race track, that is why I bought it.
I have never felt the rev limiter in this car yet. I have been keeping it well below 7500 because I only have about 2000 kms on it so far. I know why am I tracking it already. I cannot resist running this car at a race track, that is why I bought it.
6/17/11, 02:17 PM
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Canuck, if you had the interest and/or the inclination and you are PC-savy... one solution is to set you up with some data logging software as we can capture what the heck the ECU is seeing/doing. Just one thought if we don't have any other insights from members here (or at Ford!)
6/17/11, 02:27 PM
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that is fuel starvation. happens to me a lot with my CTS-V. If I get to 1/2 tank it begins. I notice it at Sebring coming out of Turn 17 (long right handed sweeper) but it doesnt occur until the front straight, and at Daytona running their infield course I had it happen REALLY bad after the international horseshoe, where as soon as I hit the throttle after I exited the corner the car died, and every press of the gas pedal would cause the car to bog down and stumble (had about 1/3 tank).
I drive the hell out of my car, but I've noticed that if I do an event and am driving the car moderately but still being fairly aggressive, not pushing it too hard in the corners, I can run it down to 1/4 tank without any issue at all. That might be why others who arent going *****-to-the-wall may not have this issue.
happening at 3/4 of a tank and under doesnt seem right. I would consider having this issue at 1/2 tank and under "normal" for a street car on a race track (non-baffled tank), but 3/4 of a tank seems a bit much. My guess is either your fuel level sensor is off (maybe the float is bent from when it was installed?) or maybe something in the tank wasnt installed properly, so the pickup isnt down as far as it should be. I dont know, thats my theory, but I'd be interested to see what the tank looks like.
oh, and P.S. - post the pics of your car from the track! I see that one pic as your avatar. I am dying to see KB 302's in action on a track...
I drive the hell out of my car, but I've noticed that if I do an event and am driving the car moderately but still being fairly aggressive, not pushing it too hard in the corners, I can run it down to 1/4 tank without any issue at all. That might be why others who arent going *****-to-the-wall may not have this issue.
happening at 3/4 of a tank and under doesnt seem right. I would consider having this issue at 1/2 tank and under "normal" for a street car on a race track (non-baffled tank), but 3/4 of a tank seems a bit much. My guess is either your fuel level sensor is off (maybe the float is bent from when it was installed?) or maybe something in the tank wasnt installed properly, so the pickup isnt down as far as it should be. I dont know, thats my theory, but I'd be interested to see what the tank looks like.
oh, and P.S. - post the pics of your car from the track! I see that one pic as your avatar. I am dying to see KB 302's in action on a track...
Last edited by smbstyle; 6/17/11 at 02:33 PM.
6/17/11, 02:36 PM
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I am PC-savy and have done data logging on a Subaru in the past however our next event at this track is not until August and the track is 3 hours from where I live. If no one responds with a similar issue by August I will take you up on your offer.
Thanks
Thanks
6/17/11, 02:43 PM
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Dean,
The warmest it got all weekend was low 70's so I am sure it is not temperature related. It would happen right in the beginning of a session if you pushed the car hard enough and the fuel was at half a tank.
The warmest it got all weekend was low 70's so I am sure it is not temperature related. It would happen right in the beginning of a session if you pushed the car hard enough and the fuel was at half a tank.
6/17/11, 02:45 PM
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6/17/11, 02:49 PM
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I know nothing about the fuel pick up in the boss yet since my LS has a third qtr build but I had the same problem in my Ford based Panoz. The ecu did not pick up the error codes but it was an air leak in the fuel hose when the fuel went below 3/4 tank.We installed new rubber lines and it went away.
6/17/11, 02:53 PM
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Scott,
Finally someone that has experienced the same issue albeit with a different car and a lower fuel level. I am basically discounting the fact that this issue is specific to my car because a very experienced driver in a 2011 Mustang GT on the same track on the same day experienced the same issue. I personally think it is a design issue that only shows up under very specific track conditions. I would never take this car around a tight corner on the street this fast so it would never show up for me on the street.
Just to be perfectly clear, this never happens on a tight right hand corner. Anyone know which side the fuel pickup is on?
Finally someone that has experienced the same issue albeit with a different car and a lower fuel level. I am basically discounting the fact that this issue is specific to my car because a very experienced driver in a 2011 Mustang GT on the same track on the same day experienced the same issue. I personally think it is a design issue that only shows up under very specific track conditions. I would never take this car around a tight corner on the street this fast so it would never show up for me on the street.
Just to be perfectly clear, this never happens on a tight right hand corner. Anyone know which side the fuel pickup is on?
6/17/11, 03:07 PM
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Scott,
Finally someone that has experienced the same issue albeit with a different car and a lower fuel level. I am basically discounting the fact that this issue is specific to my car because a very experienced driver in a 2011 Mustang GT on the same track on the same day experienced the same issue. I personally think it is a design issue that only shows up under very specific track conditions. I would never take this car around a tight corner on the street this fast so it would never show up for me on the street.
Just to be perfectly clear, this never happens on a tight right hand corner. Anyone know which side the fuel pickup is on?
Finally someone that has experienced the same issue albeit with a different car and a lower fuel level. I am basically discounting the fact that this issue is specific to my car because a very experienced driver in a 2011 Mustang GT on the same track on the same day experienced the same issue. I personally think it is a design issue that only shows up under very specific track conditions. I would never take this car around a tight corner on the street this fast so it would never show up for me on the street.
Just to be perfectly clear, this never happens on a tight right hand corner. Anyone know which side the fuel pickup is on?
One thing to keep in mind is these are usually the corners that blow motors as well due to oil starvation. i think the boss' baffled oil pan helps prevent this though.
since my info is helpful can i be rewarded with you posting track pics? your avatar is a tease!
Last edited by smbstyle; 6/17/11 at 03:09 PM.
6/17/11, 03:25 PM
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I will give you a link to the pictures from one of our events and you can see what type of cars we run up here in Canada. The pictures of my car are on the second page.
http://www.pbase.com/locotoy/may29_2011_timeattack
http://www.pbase.com/locotoy/may29_2011_timeattack
6/17/11, 03:41 PM
#20
I will give you a link to the pictures from one of our events and you can see what type of cars we run up here in Canada. The pictures of my car are on the second page.
http://www.pbase.com/locotoy/may29_2011_timeattack
http://www.pbase.com/locotoy/may29_2011_timeattack
some of the best shots of have seen of that color. You painted the roof?