PACETTR

Or five

OAC_Sparky

Well that is unfortunate; that doesn't happen here. Unless the dealer (like I said earlier) totally botches his stock order.

66sprint200

Sorry PACETTR,

As one Okie to another, you're gonna lose this argument. ADM's are a black eye on the car industry and dealrships in particular! They should NEVER happen.

Yes, I paid an ADM for my GT500 in 2006, but it is the last time I will ever pay over MSRP for anything ever again! Also, it was $10k less than your boss wanted from me, after they had promised me their first allocation! And that is why hell will freeze over before I darken the doorstep of one of his dealerships to buy anything, ever.

Nothing personal with you. Just don't like the GREED GAME.............and that is what it is; put simply, in a nutshell...........GREED, at the expense of customer relations and trust....... Now, may Barrett-Jackson die a swift and painful death.............

.......you may continue with your normally scheduled programming.........

cdynaco

You have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about friend. Your paltry 13 years is nothing in the profession.

If you want to succeed in sales long term, and be in the position to retire early (or at all) - with a clear conscience and hundreds of friends/customers - the sales professional's JOB is to represent the CUSTOMER first. Fighting corporate is where the headache is - often moreso than the competition. But by volume (from repeat business and endless referrals from happy successful clients), you are in a position of strength to tell corporate to shove it when they are getting greedy. Sales "managers"/bosses come and go. Companies/jobs can come and go. But your personal book (of happy customers) is where its at long term.

Personal reputation is everything. I live and die on character.

Peace my young Jedi.

I'll second the

cdynaco

Absolutely well said as a customer.

It always amazes me how corporate (with their silly little meetings and charts by those with their silly MBA degrees that never stood face to face with a customer), middle managers (don't get me started), and far too many "salespeople" (hahaha)..... actually think customers don't talk amongst themselves during and after the sale. Or realize (during that buyers remorse/further research phase) after the fact that they just got screwed. People sitting home with their calculator after the fact is reality. And then enter the world of forums and facebook.

Some refuse to deal with those businesses and their employees EVER again. Some talk amongst limited people (because they are embarassed). Some go on a scorched earth policy that not only spread the story among friends & associates, but write CEO's, BBB's, etc., and expose those involved. But no one goes around bragging "I got my new car today - and it came with an ADM!"

Either way, the greedy hacks lose! They got a one shot deal. Enjoy your one fancy "bone-us". And because of their ignorance & greed, the party is over with that customer and their circle of friends and associates.

66sprint200

On that note: I office next to a lawyer who asked me about my GT500, he was thinking about buying one. He told me that PACETTR's boss had told him that they were only around $60k. Mind you, this was about 18 months ago, after the market crash and ensuing Obama bull****. I told him that I could give him a list of dealers selling at well under MSRP anywhere in the country, but that this dealer was only interested in screwing people because of a certain name attached to the vehicle..........

Now he is driving a brand new Land Rover and his wife has a brand new Acura........ Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......... No Fords...... Hmmmm.......

And this is only one story about me relating my dealings with said dealership.............

cdynaco

PACETTR

Don't get carried away...

Ahem. From the "How much are you paying" thread:

So you were willing to back out on your agreement with a dealer?



I wasn't aware Ford was a direct competitor with Land Rover and Acura.

We have sold our GT500's for MSRP or less for the past couple of years (or more) FWIW

Also, as I'm certain the haters will enjoy this, one of our stores LOST ~$10k on the last GT500KR they had.


I wonder why no one has addressed my points about real estate, jewelry, or Play Station 3's...? Is it because those are PEOPLE and not car dealers? Does that make it OK?


I will peacefully bow out on this note.

The car business is unlike ANY other business. It would be great if customers came out and picked out the car they wanted and paid the price on the window. But that's not reality. Ask Ford Motor Company. They tried their hand at retailing their own cars in the 90's and failed miserably. Their biggest mistake...they marked the prices, which were more than fairly discounted from MSRP, clearly on the window of every vehicle on the lot, and that was IT. ZERO negotiation. Not even a set of floor mats. They tried it in several markets and lost their shorts.

It's because a long time ago an environment was created that has greatly improved but is far from perfect. I marvel at how big of "crooks" jewelers are in comparison to car dealers. I WISH we had 200% markup to work with.

None of you are going to "teach" me anything. I COMPLETELY understand and respect your decision not to pay over MSRP; I'm not sure that I would either. But let's not act like it's the biggest crime ever to receive the most we can from a product we are selling, whether it is a new vehicle or a house we are too proud of. I work for the largest Ford dealer in the state, and we got that way by taking care of our customers. We have the most repeat/referral customers of any Ford dealer around. We TRY to price our vehicles fairly. On specialty cars, we are generally the "cheapest" of the "volume" stores in the metro. The owner actually frequently asks me what the market is on vehicles such as this, and I use live customer feedback as well as sites like this to keep myself informed.


And Sprint, you are welcome at my store (Yukon) any time. If I can ever help you out, I am more than happy to. Hopefully we can have some fun at Hallett!

1 COBRA

OK boys and girls! Today's lesson for all third graders is, you guessed it, addition and substraction!

Before 2006: 5 purchases and 17 referrals. After 2006: NONE. And yes, I did not get the '07 GT500 I was promised and neither did a few long time customers who were in the same boat and were lied to. And yes, the dealer sold their 3 allocations at over MSRP... to outoftowners.

My purchases as well as those from those other long time customers might have been a drop in the bucket but all bundled up amounts to a lot more than making a killing on three cars. The dealer closed its doors in 2009 while the dealer which has been fair has sold me two ponies, one SUV, and has received three referrals since 2008. I assume others followed the same foot steps.

Pay now or pay later. Some dealers learn the hard way.

cdynaco

Well that's obvious... but to whose downfall?

Bullcrud. Many sales people think that on some level, and each industry does have it's own quirks. But in the end, it always comes down to serving your Boss - the customer. Nobody has their job without the customer... neither sales people, managers, CEO's, or shareholders.



...it just seemed to fit....

Jza1736

I look at it like this. If you don't like adm's, don't pay them! I refused to buy a gt500 a few years back and I refused to buy a Boss with 1. I got my Boss for Msrp. Would have loved an LS and I knew about a dealer in Texas that wanted 5000 over MSRP. I'll be happy with my boss 302! And i'll put 5000 into and be much happier than throwing to a greedy dealer!

06GT

A fool and his money will soon be parted.

cloud9

This thread got moved into a separate section on Team Shelby because it's just a circular argument. It can't be resolved.

OAC_Sparky

I'm not going to give much more time and effort to this; it truly IS a circular argument.

Before I depart let me make a few closing points.

Actually, to the contrary. I don't want to see anyone LOSE money; a healthy honest dealership network would be good for Ford.

But ask yourself this: You say that none of your past customers that have paid ADM have complained and were happy to do so. 66sprint200's opinion on his transaction doesn't agree. You can't hear people complain if they don't come back to your dealership to purchase new cars. What was the ADM on the KR when it first arrived? Was there any and the potential customer walked out? How many of the people you alienated with an ADM on the KR or a previous vehicle might have bit if you offered for MSRP.

Like I said, I have access to the pricing; and the incentives ... but I can't disclose specific numbers.

But for a moment let's pretend that in Canada that a certain special edition Mustang, we'll call it the Brass 305 Lasagna Supreme, stickers for say, $56,699. The direct profit at MSRP is $6500 not including any extra options, ESP, VIN etching and rustproofing services, clearcoat protection, financing kickbacks or future warranty/mainainance profit assuming the customer returns to that dealership for maintenance.

I would say that $6500 profit is a decent number. To add a $10,000 ADM to me is just plain greed.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me as far as my purchases are concerned -- I get APlan PLUS any incentives PLUS any financing specials. So I don't even pay invoice let alone MSRP. And yet my salesman would still get a commission cheque, and he'll STILL bend over backwards for me. That's why I have (well including the Mustang that's coming) FOUR vehicles in my driveway, the two oldest are 2005s.

And to clarify:
Actually, LR was a division of Ford, just like Jag and Volvo. But depending on what model LR he bought then the previous Lincoln Aviator would have been.
LR Discovery 3

Lincoln Aviator (now discontinued):


And as far as Acura, any of the offerings from Lincoln (MkX MkZ, MkT, MkS) and some Fords (Edge, Taurus, etc) are as good or better than their Acura counterparts.

askjeffro

Hopefully once the Chinese come to American shores with direct sales to customers (no independent dealers), the dealers in the U.S. will wake up and realize they only exist as a testament to an old model of car sales.

They only way they will be able to survive is by becoming a value add to the process instead of a leech on the system which most (not all) dealers have become. I'll let you guys decide if a dealer that charges ADM's is a leech or not...

ace72ace

Over a month ago I took a ride over to a nearby Ford dealership that had 7 2011 Mustang GT convertibles on the lot. Unfortunately, the New England weather up here had dumped even more snow on top of what we already had, so the the cars on the lot were all pretty filthy. While not ready to buy just yet, I wanted to take some pictures and do some dream building, and it was a fun ride with my 9 year old son.

When we arrived, I pulled up in front of the showroom, as the customer parking spaces are typically always there for obvious reasons in my wife's 2011 GT. There was a customer walking out of the showroom with some sales lit in his hand and he smiled when he saw our new Mustang so we chatted a bit. Told him how much we love it and that while it's not the best winter car, it really is a blast to drive and if he decides to get one, he'll really enjoy it.

We get inside, and see this really tall (and to me creeping looking) sales guy standing in the showroom like a statue. Now he can see we pulled up in a new Mustang, and would hope that he would guess I know something about the cars, but who knows. I observe that the 2011 GT500 Shelby convertible has a yellow SOLD sticker on it. I had hoped I would be able to sit in it and take some pictures of it, even though I'm not going to buy one. Right away I know that even if this guy gives me his card, I'm not going to want to deal with him simply because I got a bad vibe from him. That's ok, we all can't possibly like everyone, so I figured I could at least talk to him for a minute, and come back another day when the cars on the lot weren't so dirty for some better pix.

As I wasn't interested in asking this particular guy whether or not they would be getting a 2012 Boss 302 allocation (I hope to get one at MSRP, or if no luck get a loaded GT convertible), I started the conversation about the Shelby....

"I saw you had one of these on your website, and was hoping I could at least sit in it and take a few pictures (had my camera in hand), but see it has a SOLD sticker on it."

"Yes, a buyer from X (I swore he said Arizona, but later another salesman told me Colorado...) found it and is having it shipped out west"

"Oh really, hey that's great, I'm sure they will love it. I was glad to see from the price listed on the web site that there wasn't an ADM..."

"There was an ADM"

"Oh, ok, well I'm here to check out the Mustang convertibles"

He then directed me out back and they weren't there, so my son and I walked back outside to the side lot, and there they were all lined up. Took a bunch of pix since I was there, and figured I would stop by in a few weeks after all the snow storms had passed. Last week I stopped by on my way home and was taking more pictures of the same dirty cars with my new iPhone. Unfortunately the wind blows right over the grimy snow banks and covers everything they have with dust and dirt, so the pix would be pretty much more of the same as 4 weeks ago. A different salesman spots me outside and comes out to chat.

This guy is much more personable and right away I know is the guy I would like to negotiate with, and ask about the Boss 302. We chat outside for about 15 mins, an I then ask him about their allocation, if they have one, etc. He says he doesn't know but can check, so we head inside so I can give him all my contact information, what exactly I want, etc.

Lo and behold, the Shelby is still sitting there, w/o the SOLD sticker on it...




I took these pix while the salesman was off checking on their allotment, and noticed the ADM on the Shelby. Right then and there I thought my odds of ordering a 2012 Boss from this dealership was between zero and a number less than 1. I walk back to his desk and he tells me he thinks they are getting 'a black one', to which I say, "I guess that's a Laguna Seca".

I go on to tell him that I'm out shopping local dealers who have Bosses coming in, and need to know to do business with once ready to order. Since their first allocation coming in seems to be an LS (he said they might be getting a second allocation) I would be willing to work a deal on the 2nd even if it is a 3Q or 4Q. I felt there was no way in hell this particular dealership will get back to me and be willing to agree to an order on a Kona Blue Boss, with Recaros/Torsen, Track Key, and Gauge Pkg added for MSRP. Thanked the salesman for his time, left thinking that I need to visit a few more dealers.

I didn't resent the fact that this dealer decided to charge ADM on specialty Mustangs. A free market economy and the nature of auto sales gives them every right in the world to ask for X amount over MSRP. I didn't take it personally. I am half hoping that the amount of money that this particular dealership is losing month after month on this Shelby might dissuade them to consider a loaded Boss 302 sale as 'good business'.

I don't claim to know more about dealer costs, inventory financing terms, nor do I care. I'm the consumer, the guy with the cash, and possible *REPEAT* customer, both for sales and service. You have to wonder how long this Shelby will sit on the showroom with the ADM, until the GM finally decides to let it go for the 'next guy' for X price. Going to the dealer, and finding a salesman I was comfortable with was worthwhile and by no means a waste of time. Who knows, if the current GM gets canned because of poor profit margins, I might end up getting the Boss after all...

I enjoyed the banter about sales ethics, profit margins, and ADM in this thread. Now to go down the path of real estate, new versus 'used' etc, my only comment is this.

"It's a vehicle, not life saving/sustaining medicine."

Don't want to pay ADM? Don't.

It's not anyones legal right to only pay MSRP, therefor I read this thread for entertainment, and it delivered. If folks want to get into debates over sales 'ethics', I'm sure this has been covered in Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, <insert over marque here> forums. Running a business is a zero sum game, you either show a profit/loss at the end of every month, quarter, or year or you don't, and eventually go out of business. I especially liked the previous post about the dealer that got big ADM on 3 models, but eventually went under. It's like sticking your finger in the electrical outlet. While your curiosity may have been satisfied (reason for doing so / charging silly ADM), the end result (a very unpleasant sensation / negative balance sheet at year end) taught a lesson. You have to wonder if the overall business practices of the dealer that went under were the more likely reason they went belly up. The hefty ADM seems to support that assumption, but who knows...

I really wish I knew more about the family finances at this point, but will have to wait a month or 2 more until future income potential is realized.

-ace72

1 COBRA

So did my local dealer which did not sell its KR for over a year.

I was called when it arrived, went to take a look at it, and was surprised with the $20K over the Shelby sticker. I mentioned it might be a bad idea since the level of substance with respect to the upgrades vs cost plus the enthusiasm for the KR was just not there, and if there to be an interested buyer at Shelby MSRP they should jump on it and quick. Of course, they were the enlightened, knew better, and it was black. All the ingridients to have a waiting line to pay $94K. What did I know?

It is very likely both dealers shared the same ill advice, both listened to the wrong guy. It does make a point as to the multiple mention of greed.

BlueSkyVert

I understand ADMs, but there's no car out there for which I'm willing to pay more than MSRP. Other people may feel differently. I am extremely impatient when I want something, but ADMs are something I've found I could never pay.

I've saved some coin over the years by buying at the end of the model year. Those savings are realized once the depreciation curve normalizes. ADMs are in direct contradiction of my strategy

future9er24

windsor202

"It's a vehicle, not life saving/sustaining medicine."

"Don't want to pay ADM? Don't."

This Shelby is at Londonderry Ford in New Hampshire. I stopped in right after our last snowstorm just to take a look. The car had a sold tag on it. When I inquired about the car they said an airline pilot from Colorado had purchased it. When I asked how their business was doing, the sales manager commented that with the multiple snowstorms we had, sales had been dead for over a month. He then told one of his salespeople to take the sold tag off the car, that they haven't heard from the "pilot" recently.

My perspective is this:
A lot of these dealers want to hold onto a specialty car because of the showroom traffic it creates. I was at this dealership because I found this car for sale on Autotrader with no ADM. When I was looking at this Shelby at this dealership, the sales manager said to me "have you driven the Mustang GT, incredible car!" He was doing what any good salesman would do. Bait with the Shelby, but reel them in with the GT, a car plentifull on his lot. For 95% of the people out there, he's right, the GT is the perfect car. But of course, enthusiast want more.
These small dealers get one or two car allotments of a Shelby or Boss 302 per year. They want to hang onto them to stir showroom traffic. This dealer was so concerned that he would sell the car even with ADM that he put a sold tag on it! When I was their, he pulled the sold tag because as he readily admitted business was in the dumps. I was amused at the tactics, because I've owned my own business for 23 years. I was not offended. Plus it's a 2011, time to let it go. But if he could just make it till April, warmer temperatures, spring air, he knows he will get his ADM. In the meantime, this car would have served him well, as a sales tool.

I only buy cars that are a bargain, I'll wait till ADM's are done, and I almost allways by used. If a dealer marks a car up, that's his business, but if he is dishonest in his dealings, shame on him. The market will determine his fate.
If you want that car of your dreams, just be patient.

Ford's marketing brochures states the potential customer for their high performace cars is either an image seeker or an performance enthusiast. I've had a passion for these cars for over 40 years. I'm sure many people buy these cars to forfill one or two of these needs. Nothing wrong with that! After all, it is a free market.